Jeffrey R. Holland's Talk

[notHagoth7]

The apostle relates how the two men went to their martyrdom pondering the truths of the Book of Mormon. ?In the hour they died

Methinks you're taking "hour" too literally.

I certainly don't think he was referring to a 60-minute period of time.

[LifeOnaPlate]

A long lost document, in Joseph Smith's hand, has just been discovered, and I'm privileged to reveal it here first:

You had me at "ROTL!"

[LifeOnaPlate]

I have a more difficult time feeling the Spirit when Elder Holland talks. I strongly disagree with his comment about the BoM being something that people must discredit before being able to leave the church. As I have said many times, I do not believe that the BoM's truth/authenticity would necessarily compel a person to remain an active member of the church and accept all of the present-day dogma which comes out of the mouths of Holland and other church leaders. Just as God give us truth line upon line, and precept upon precept, here a litte, and there a little, it is perfectly plausible that serious doctrinal error persist in the church even if the BoM is true. While these doctrinal errors do not necessarily compel a person to leave the church, they are significant enough to seriously undermine the idea that our leaders' purported revelations and sermons are always from God.

That would describe someone who is going around the Book of Mormon, ie, seeing other things and so forth. So Elder Holland is still correct.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I posted this there as well, and feel equally inspired to post it here:

According to the History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.32, p.600-601, Shortly after 9pm, June 26th, 1844, while in the Carthage jail, there was recorded: "During the evening the Patriarch Hyrum Smith read and commented upon extracts from the Book of Mormon, on the imprisonments and deliverance of the bore a powerful testimony to the guards of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, the Restoration of the Gospel, the administration of angels, and that the kingdom of God was again established upon the earth, for the sake of which he was then incarcerated in that prison, and not because he had violated any law of God or man....Joseph gave expression to several presentiments that he had to die, and said 'I would like to see my family again,' and 'I would to God that I could preach to the Saints in Nauvoo once more.'"

The following morning, some time after 10am, there was written: "Both Joseph and Hyrum bore a faithful testimony to the Latter-day work, and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and prophesied of the triumph of the Gospel over all the earth, exhorting the brethren present to faithfulness and persevering diligence in proclaiming the Gospel, building up the Temple, and performing all the duties connected with our holy religion." (ibid. p.610)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Even better. Good find. See also page 610:

Testimony of Joseph and Hyrum to the Book of Mormon.

Both Joseph and Hyrum bore a faithful testimony to the Latter-day work, and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and prophesied of the triumph of the Gospel over all the earth, exhorting the brethren present to faithfulness and persevering diligence in proclaiming the Gospel, building up the Temple, and performing all the duties connected with our holy religion.

Danna?

[Do I sound "incensed" enough yet, folks?]

[Lightbearer]

I posted this there as well, and feel equally inspired to post it here:

According to the History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.32, p.600-601, Shortly after 9pm, June 26th, 1844, while in the Carthage jail, there was recorded: "During the evening the Patriarch Hyrum Smith read and commented upon extracts from the Book of Mormon, on the imprisonments and deliverance of the bore a powerful testimony to the guards of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, the Restoration of the Gospel, the administration of angels, and that the kingdom of God was again established upon the earth, for the sake of which he was then incarcerated in that prison, and not because he had violated any law of God or man....Joseph gave expression to several presentiments that he had to die, and said 'I would like to see my family again,' and 'I would to God that I could preach to the Saints in Nauvoo once more.'"

The following morning, some time after 10am, there was written: "Both Joseph and Hyrum bore a faithful testimony to the Latter-day work, and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and prophesied of the triumph of the Gospel over all the earth, exhorting the brethren present to faithfulness and persevering diligence in proclaiming the Gospel, building up the Temple, and performing all the duties connected with our holy religion." (ibid. p.610)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thank you Wade, I knew I had read that before and now I remember where. (Yes I have read all 6 or rather 7 volumes of the History of the Church but it has been a while) Thank you for proving that Danna and not Elder Holland is the liar. Of course I had the spirit testify to me that what Elder Holland said was true, but it feels so good to silence the gainsayers!

[Deborah]

A long lost document, in Joseph Smith's hand, has just been discovered, and I'm privileged to reveal it here first:

You realize some people will take this seriously and it will spread across the anti sites as gospel truth.

[ttribe]

A long lost document, in Joseph Smith's hand, has just been discovered, and I'm privileged to reveal it here first:

"It seems that we're about to die. Well, so what? Big deal. I've had a good run. The tarring and feathering, the mobbings, the endless hiding, the knocked-out tooth, the imprisonments, near-execution, being driven from state to state, the virulent public hatred, the sufferings of my family and my friends, and now my impending violent death at a young age -- it's been much more than worth these trivialities. I lived well, making scores of dollars a year. I had a great social life (heh heh heh). So now I die at thirty-eight and go to oblivion, or else to Hell. Sounds like a fair trade. Of course, my idiot brother Hyrum actually believes this nonsense. What a fool. Just now, he's reading a bit of Solomon Spalding's purloined novel aloud to me, thinking it's going to make me feel better! He still believes it's for real! I have to admit that seeing how I've still got him completely bamboozled, along with my ridiculous mother and my wife and my disgusting children (wish I'd managed to sire a few easy marks with some of my gullible girlfriends to go along with Emma's spawn, dang it), is quite enough to make me feel just fine. It's empty-headed fanatics like this that, if my plans work out, are going to die across the plains and in the Rocky Mountains, where I've been encouraging them to go. Oh man. Hyrum's still droning on with that religious drivel. Must keep a straight face. Trying to look solemn. (It's hard! Even for a practiced deceiver like me!) 'Oh yeah, Hy my bro, that's real heavy stuff. Like, dude, I feel so holy now.' ROTL! What . . . a . . . moron!. Well, anyway, toodle oo, fair world! Suckers!"

That was genius.

[ttribe]

Methinks you're taking "hour" too literally.

I certainly don't think he was referring to a 60-minute period of time.

Bingo!

[notHagoth7]

[Do I sound "incensed" enough yet, folks?]

Not yet. A bit of frothing would help.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I've frothed, and I'll froth again!

[LifeOnaPlate]

So, just to sum up (and angrily!):

The criticism boils down to at least two questions:

1) Did Elder Holland misspeak when he claimed that JS & Co. read from the BoM in their "final hour"? [We've already shown Danna was wrong in her other assertions, it has whittled down to this 'final hour' argument.]

2) Did Elder Holland brandish the exact same BoM that JS & Co. read? I.e., did this General Authority haul this relic of Mormon history to General Conference?

As to point (1), the TBMs have clearly won, because we all know this is a big battle rather than an attempt to get the best view of the situation. The best we've been able to come up with a more reasonable (and charitable) reading of Elder Holland's "last hour" statement. Only one wishing to push a metaphor into literalness to make a man an offender for a word would struggle accepting this, IMO. It's clear that he was not twisting the truth in order to score an emotional point.

As to point (2), we have a tip from an anonymous informant who explained that they believe their copy was read at the same time Hyrum read from the copy Holland held in his address. We also have a statement from a Church archivist through Robin Jensen that the Church News "got it wrong," and was incorrect about the book in the 2007 story. Again, what is the more likely book, the one owned by Hyrum's son or the one owned by Hyrum's cousin's wife? I'm going with the former.

Oh, and we also have a bunch of speculation and conspiracy theory by people another message board. We have that too.

*he said angrily.*

[Danna]

Actually there is. John Taylor testified Hyrum read from the BoM the day they left for Carthage. Further, he explained:

Testimony of Joseph and Hyrum to the Book of Mormon.

Both Joseph and Hyrum bore a faithful testimony to the Latter-day work, and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, and prophesied of the triumph of the Gospel over all the earth, exhorting the brethren present to faithfulness and persevering diligence in proclaiming the Gospel, building up the Temple, and performing all the duties connected with our holy religion.

History of the Church vol. 6, pg. 610. Or click here.

Elder Holland was not conflating the reading from Ether and the discussion of the Book of Mormon in the jail, but Danna seems to be.

Concerning the discussion in the jail. Have you read the surrounding chapters? The days in Carthage are described in fine detail in the official history, well, mostly. Particularly the last day.

After Joseph wrote a letter to Emma (time noted 8.20am), and Fuller returned to the Jail at 8.30am, Wheelock returned from his errands. Wheelock took orders for the Nauvoo legion; Listened to a lengthy and detailed oration by Joseph which included the statement: "Our lives have already become jeopardized by revealing the wicked and bloodthirsty purposes of our enemies..."; discussed and took down a list of witnesses to fetch from Nauvoo for the trial; listened to so many personal message to take to Nauvoo that Dr Richards thought he should write them down; listened to Joseph tell of a dream he had in fine detail, and then listened to the testimonies of the the two members of the party soon to be martyred. In contrast to the detail accompanying the other activites, which consume a number of pages. The wee faith-promoting statement is vague and devoid of contextual detail. It is exactly the few lines you have posted.

All that took place before the return of the lawyers at about 9.40amwhich is the time on the P.S. on Joseph's letter to Emma which contains the information his lawyers brought to him.

The last few hours are detailed thus (all refs from Church History Vol 6):

3:15 P.M.?The guard began to be more severe in their operations, threatening among themselves, and telling what they would do when the excitement was over.

Elder Taylor sang The Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief. (p 614)

When he got through, Joseph requested him to sing it again, which he did.

Hyrum read extracts from Josephus.

4 P.M.?The guard was again changed, only eight men being stationed at the jail, whilst the main body of the Carthage Greys were in camp about a quarter of a mile distant, on the public square. (p 615)

4:15 P.M.?Joseph commenced conversing with the guard about Joseph H. Jackson, William and Wilson Law, and others of his persecutors.

Hyrum and Dr. Richards conversed together until quarter past five.

5 P.M.?Jailor Stigall returned to the jail, and said that Stephen Markham had been surrounded by a mob, who had driven him out of Carthage, and he had gone to Nauvoo.

Shortly after the account continues with the men sharing a bottle of wine, and the attack by the mob. Just before Joseph was shot, Talyor's watch was struck and stopped at 5 o'clock, 16 minutes, and 26 seconds

-----------------

So the context-devoid account of testimony bearing in the Church history is very unsatisfying from an evidentiary point of view. Read to account from the time of order to destry to Expositor and you should see what I mean.

Why waste so much paper on accounts of dreams and Joseph's analysis of the mistakes leading up to the incarceration, when surely the richer treasure was the testimonies of the martyrs?

Then, when switching back from the small vague faith-promoting paragraph to the detailed account, we find that Hyrum is now read reading from Josephus! With less than two hours to go before martyrdom!

So, no, I do not see an uncontextual and vague anecdote as convincing evidence of the events Elder Holland describes at Carthage.

As to the reading of Ether prior to departure to Carthage. If you read my earlier posts, I most certainly have not conflated that with the events of Carthage, in fact my statements warn against doing so. So - did Hyrum read Ether to Joseph or not, as strongly implied if not stated outright by Elder Holland.

Edited to put LoaP's quote back in, it dropped off somehow.

[consiglieri]

The fact is simply that Hyrum read to Joseph from the BoM. Whether Joseph found consolation in the reading is anyone's guess.

I think that's a fair statement.

Can we agree that perhaps a bit of poetic license was used and let it go at that?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Pahoran]

I have listened carefully to Elder Holland's talk.

And I believe I have found the source of the "desperation" referred to by John Larsen, and eagerly parrotted by his claque over on the other board.

It's in their own minds.

Regards,

Pahoran

[juliann]

Oh my gosh....they are actually reduced to redefining idioms? They have bigger problems than a short little talk that touched an obviously very raw nerve.... the earth is going to explode in 58 minutes!

Our Final Hour: A Scientist's Warning (Paperback) by Martin Rees

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Final-Hour-Scientists-Warning/dp/0465068634/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254868908&sr=1-4

[LifeOnaPlate]

So, no, I do not see an uncontextual and vague anecdote as convincing evidence of the events Elder Holland describes at Carthage.

Did JS and Hyrum read the Book of Mormon in their final hours? Did they read a passage from Ether that would have given them encouragement? Did they testify to the jailers that the book was true? Did they read from the Book of Mormon at Carthage Jail? Yes, and yes, and yes.

This is Elder Holland's point. And I personally doubt the BoM would have been on their minds at all if it didn't actually mean something to them.

In calling for context you end up dismissing actual documented circumstances. Context? Yes. Context at the expense of actual eye-witness accounts of actual events? No.

Or are you taking "final hour" to mean the literal final 60 minutes? Seriously?

[gtaggart]

Two of the definitions of the word "hour," both from the Microsoft Encarta Dictionary (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/hour.html):

5. significant period: a period during which something particularly significant happens

6. time of success: a time when somebody is powerful, successful, or famous their finest hour

In my hard copy edition of the same dictionary, the 5th definition comes with this example:

[Daniel Peterson]

"What General Weygand called the Battle of France is over. I expect that the Battle of Britain is about to begin. Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. upon it depends our own British life and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire. The whole fury and might of the enemy must very soon be turned on us now. Hitler knows that he will have to break us in this island or lose the war. If we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age, made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say, "This was their finest hour."

So spoke Sir Winston Churchill, His Majesty's prime minister, in anticipation of the Battle of Britain, before the House of Commons on 18 June 1940.

What a doofus. A lot of people think highly of him, but I can't see why. He predicted that the Battle of Britain would last sixty minutes, but it actually lasted more than sixty days!

The chronology of the Battle of Britain can be divided roughly into four phases, as follows:

* 10 July

[LifeOnaPlate]

So spoke Sir Winston Churchill, His Majesty's prime minister, in anticipation of the Battle of Britain, before the House of Commons on 18 June 1940.

What a doofus. A lot of people think highly of him, but I can't see why. He predicted that the Battle of Britain would last sixty minutes, but it actually lasted more than sixty days!

I'm pulling out my angriest emoticon for this one.

[Daniel Peterson]

Here's the part of the Spalding manuscript that they were reading:

"...but alas when one unlucky event happens another follows close on the heal.-the fair, plump corpulant Damsel, his affectionate sweetheart came instantly, sliding with great velocity she saw the woful position of her beloved-she wished him no harm-she raised her feet this bro't the center of gravity directly over the center of his head-here she rested a moment-his head sunk-she sunk after him his heels kicked against the wind like Jeshuran waked fat-but not a word from his lips-but his ideas came in quick succession-tho't he, what a disgrace to die here in the mud under the pressure of my sweet heart-however his time for such reflections were short-the tender hearted maid collecting all her agility in one effort dismounted & found herself on dry land i[n-] instant-not a moment to be lost; she seized her lover by one leg & draged him from the mud-a curious figure, extending about six feet six inches on the ground,-all bismeared from head to foot, spiting-puffing, panting & strugling for breath.-Poor man, the whole multitude laughing at thy calamity, shouting, rediculing-none to give thee consolation but thy loving & simpithetic partner in misfortune-Upon my soul, exclaims droll Tom-Stern formost-that bouncing Lass ought to have the highest prize for draging her ship from the mud-She was cleaning the filth from his face."

I have determined that this portion of the Spalding manuscript eventually became Helaman 3:35:

"Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God."

Good grief. The parallels are nothing short of astonishing. This is a watershed moment in the history of Mopologetics. I can already sense the desperation of the FARMSboys, and the seething rage with which they'll respond to this. How will they cover it up? I'll bet you'll never see this in the Gospel Principles manual. They'll try to sweep it all under the rug, just like they've tried to do with polygamy. It's all over for Mormonism, I think.

[LifeOnaPlate]

*seething*

[thinkingaboutit]

Deleted

[LifeOnaPlate]

Preferably photographic evidence.

Read the verses Hyrum read and explain to me why those verses would have been selected and how they might have impacted a man who believed he was facing death.

Far from Elder Holland saying this was the ultimate proof, he called it (paraphrasing) one little piece amongst a thousand reasons.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I see no proof whatsoever that Joseph took solace in the Book of Mormon at this time. Is there anyone who has proof that he did?

Such 'proof,' of course, would be impossible since, if Joseph had bothered to write, 'This afternoon took solace in the Book of Mormon,' we'd all know that he was just trying to perpetuate his clever fraud, right?

[gtaggart]

A certain point has not been proven yet. Although it appears Joseph and Hyrum were still testifying in the jail, there is no evidence that Joseph Smith found solace in the Book of Mormon near the time of his death. Looking up D&C 135, which is the only account given thus far that speaks of Hyrum reading the Book of Mormon, it looks to me that it was Hyrum who took consolation in the Book of Mormon, not Joseph. It does not say he read the passage aloud either. I know this is really nit-picky, and I'd rather focus on other aspects of the Church that are difficult to reconcile with facts rather than analyzing such minute particulars. Elder Holland, however, seems intent on making Joseph's solace in the Book of Mormon at this (figurative) hour the ultimate proof that the book is authentic. I see no proof whatsoever that Joseph took solace in the Book of Mormon at this time. Is there anyone who has proof that he did?

Okay, for sake of argument, let's say that the only evidence we have for Hyrum reading those verses to Joseph is Section 135. Is it not a fair inference that Hyrum read them to Joseph, given that 1.) John Taylor obviously heard him read the verses, 2.) he was with Joseph both before and after he read the verses, and 3.) the verses were so apt to the situation Hyrum, Joseph, and John Taylor found themselves in? Likewise, is it not a fair inference that Joseph would have taken solace in those verses?

By the way, the History of the Church also tells us that Hyrum "read and commented upon extracts from the Book of Mormon" the night before the Martyrdom, that Joseph bore testimony of the Book of Mormon to the guards that night as well (see page 600 of vol. 6). In addition, the History tells us that both Joseph and Hyrum bore testimony of the Book of Mormon and the Restoration the day of the Martyrdom (610). In short, that glorious book was part and parcel of their last few days alive on this earth. Just a guess, but I think Joseph would take solace in the words Hyrum read, solace in the words of another prophet he loved and whose words were so fitting to Joseph's circumstances. But that's just me, a believer.

Thank you Elder Holland for a fine and very inspiring talk.