Women, Relief Society and being LDS

[annewandering]

I would like to "call for references" that indicate that the Relief Society curriculum is "written by men".

Is not the Relief Society overseen by a "Presidency", a presidency of "Women"???

Seems to me they have a direct hand in the curriculum of the women of the Church.

As one example from the beginning, what did Emma Smith do in relation to the Relief Society, the first Hymn Book, etc.??? SHE created the stuff, not some other "man".

This idea that women are somehow "less" or have less authority in the Church or their family's is malarkey. I once left the Church for one of the main reasons being women not having the Priesthood. But, I was ignorant of the Church and God's Works, thinking from a modern politically correct standpoint, rather than a divine providence standpoint. People who think women are somehow "missing out" on not having the Priesthood "officially" are thinking the Priesthood is about power and authority over people, and thus woman are "kept down" by not having it. It's simply not that way in this Church.... The Priesthood is something completely different. And women still have authority and power in the Church by other means, as teachers, as leaders, etc. Thus, this is a non-issue.

I dont think it is an issue either but for some it is.

[annewandering]

The curriculum itself is called "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church" and that is exactly what it consists of. If memory serves, all of our prophets have been men.

Well recently anyway. Deborah was one in the old testament but not sure it was the same thing.

[annewandering]

The Relief Society is administered by a General Relief Society presidency featuring a RS gen pres, and two counselors, with headquarters in Salt Lake. In addition, there is a Rel Soc board that is comprised of a number of women (I think about a dozen), all of whom have input into the RS program along with the RS gen presidency. The RS presidency works closely with the gen church presidency in administering this very large organization.

I always loved Pres Hinckley's response to a reporter who asked him about the role of women in the Church... and Pres Hinckley (paraphrasing here) said something to the effect... we just get out of their way...

Ha! I wish I had the exact quote as it was great.

GG

EDIT TO ADD: Personal Experience this past month.

As most of you know... I just went through knee replacement surgery. I could not have made it if it hadn't been for my ward sisters in RS, who provided service to me in many ways... from the dear sister who came and stayed in my home and took care of Charlie-cat for six days (she could come and go during day of course), to those who drove me to the hospital near Portland, to those that picked me up and drove me back to Lincoln City to the rehab center, to those who volunteered to bring in meals (I didn't need this as I prepared ahead of time and had plenty of meals in freezer), to those who ran to the store for me when I needed a few items (and cat food)... to those who sent cards and called me (even some on this board sent cards), to my home teachers who came to the rehab center and administered the sacrament (what a wonderful, sweet moment)... I could never have made it through without the RS and my dear ward sisters who gave of their time and service... and a bishop who checked on me several times. I may be alone...but I am not alone. My ward family rallied round to help me through this time...

GG

I just love it when things are done like they should be. And it does a lot.

[annewandering]

I'm curious what the underlying interest is in your questions. It sounds like you have some pre-conceived notions of what women in my church experience, since you use talk about the church being patriarchal and wonder what I feel my "place" is.

But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I see Relief Society as this lovely organization that allows women in our church to do what comes naturally, which includes, but is not limited to, serving and nurturing others in all kinds of settings, listening to and empathizing with other women, and sharing spiritual experiences in a nurturing setting.

Being a member of Relief Society (although I don't attend the meetings on Sundays as I work with the children) has been a great opportunity for me, especially as I've raised my children. I'm always encouraged to be the best mom I can be, the best wife I can be, and the best friend I can be. I've been given wonderful opportunities to serve people outside my family on a neighborhood, community, and even global level. And the nice thing about sharing spiritual experiences with women is that getting emotional is okay, and even normal.

[annewandering]

This thread is great. It has reminded me of the reasons I love Relief Society. Joseph Smith was inspired when he organized the Relief Society. It has often been the only tie to the church that a family has had. It fills so many needs for both active and inactive women and their families.

One thing that kinda surprises, but pleases, me is the defense from so many of the LDS women here, even feminist leaning ones, for the Relief Society. We see the good of it. Makes me wonder who are the people that think we have been shorted so bad.

[Wants2know]

I'm curious what the underlying interest is in your questions. It sounds like you have some pre-conceived notions of what women in my church experience, since you use talk about the church being patriarchal and wonder what I feel my "place" is.

But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, I see Relief Society as this lovely organization that allows women in our church to do what comes naturally, which includes, but is not limited to, serving and nurturing others in all kinds of settings, listening to and empathizing with other women, and sharing spiritual experiences in a nurturing setting.

Being a member of Relief Society (although I don't attend the meetings on Sundays as I work with the children) has been a great opportunity for me, especially as I've raised my children. I'm always encouraged to be the best mom I can be, the best wife I can be, and the best friend I can be. I've been given wonderful opportunities to serve people outside my family on a neighborhood, community, and even global level. And the nice thing about sharing spiritual experiences with women is that getting emotional is okay, and even normal.

You are quite astute. I have no problem being blatantly honest and stating that I realize I do have "notions" regarding women's "position" in the LDS church. I was reading another thread and I came to the realization that I indeed had these preconceived notions about women's experience in the LDS church, and that awareness hit me like a brick in the head. I wasn't aware how strong those notions were until I'd read that other thread. Why, where or how I developed that notion, I'm not fully aware of, but I am aware that they do fully exist. That particular thread essentially challenged those notions. The thread basically supposed that the church leans over backwards to make women in the church feel valued, and as a byproduct, has inadvertently caused a shift in the male/female relationships where men are feeling like it's accepted practice for women to treat men disrespectfully (there was a lot more to that thread - that is a VERY general synopsis). That entire notion, that the MEN were feeling a lack of support from the church is what shocked my system... and brought me to consider my own biases, and to start this thread. However, I'm certainly aware now that I have more than a peripheral "notion" that women are undervalued in the church, and that perhaps I'm quite wrong about this notion - or at least I'm wrong about many women's perception of their value in the church. In my head, be it right or wrong, I had this vision of RS being a meeting of elderly women knitting and gossiping (neither of which sound inviting to me). I've also had other notions, and I'll state them for the sake that this is a discussion board. For example, I've had the notion that women are generally expected to forego education, get married, have lots of children, obey their husbands and essentially serve at the "authority" of the men in the church. I'm sorry if that statement feels offensive to anyone - but... I'm challenging my own belief system here not yours. From the posts, I can see that for the most part, the value of RS is a flavorful, vibrant and significant part of the LDS women's experience. It sounds like a wonderful, collaborative effort and "sisterhood". As I was driving my son to school this morning, I was thinking how nice it would have been if last winter when my son had a virus attack his brain if someone from my church would have visited me and offered assistance (my job was not helpful and he was very ill over the holidays, and couldn't even walk)... or when I went out on bedrest in the spring and still had a household to run and kids to manage and no income... how nice it would have been to have someone from my church drop off a meal. In fact, thinking about those times after reading these posts, it's really quite upsetting to be reminded, or to consider that my own church members did not offer help. Of course, I never thought to ask for anything except prayers, and I can own that too.

As a social worker, I'm feeling very thankful that those of you participating in the RS efforts you've spoken about are doing so. I can very humbly tell you that I see the humanitarianism in your work.

[Jeff K.]

I've had the notion that women are generally expected to forego education, get married, have lots of children, obey their husbands and essentially serve at the "authority" of the men in the church. I'm sorry if that statement feels offensive to anyone -

There is no offense, but if I might, I would be terribly disappointed if any of my children, including my daughters did not finish school. My wife and I waited until she finished school to marry. We have her high school diploma on the wall for all to see.......

[Jeff K.]

OK OK, I couldn't help it.....

My wife graduated cum laude BYU in accounting, she is a CFO.

[bluebell]

Wants2know, i really appreciate your willingness to re-examine your beliefs about women in the LDS church. I also wanted to touch on what you said about LDS women and education. I think there are a lot of people who believe that the LDS church wants women to stay at home and be baby machines with little education, but that is very far from the truth. Education, in the LDS religion, is highly valued, for men and women.

Both men and women are encouraged, repeatedly, to get as much education as is possible and the church even has what it calls the 'Perpetucal Educaion Fund' where members donate money to the fund which allows men and women who otherwise would not have the means to do so (especially in other countries) to take out a loan to get as much schooling as they can. When these loans are repaid, that money goes right back into the fund, hence the use of the word 'perpetual', so that others may have the same opportunity.

Education is very important in the LDS religion.

[ACW]

You are quite astute. I have no problem being blatantly honest and stating that I realize I do have "notions" regarding women's "position" in the LDS church. I was reading another thread and I came to the realization that I indeed had these preconceived notions about women's experience in the LDS church, and that awareness hit me like a brick in the head. I wasn't aware how strong those notions were until I'd read that other thread. Why, where or how I developed that notion, I'm not fully aware of, but I am aware that they do fully exist. That particular thread essentially challenged those notions. The thread basically supposed that the church leans over backwards to make women in the church feel valued, and as a byproduct, has inadvertently caused a shift in the male/female relationships where men are feeling like it's accepted practice for women to treat men disrespectfully (there was a lot more to that thread - that is a VERY general synopsis). That entire notion, that the MEN were feeling a lack of support from the church is what shocked my system... and brought me to consider my own biases, and to start this thread. However, I'm certainly aware now that I have more than a peripheral "notion" that women are undervalued in the church, and that perhaps I'm quite wrong about this notion - or at least I'm wrong about many women's perception of their value in the church. In my head, be it right or wrong, I had this vision of RS being a meeting of elderly women knitting and gossiping (neither of which sound inviting to me). I've also had other notions, and I'll state them for the sake that this is a discussion board. For example, I've had the notion that women are generally expected to forego education, get married, have lots of children, obey their husbands and essentially serve at the "authority" of the men in the church. I'm sorry if that statement feels offensive to anyone - but... I'm challenging my own belief system here not yours. From the posts, I can see that for the most part, the value of RS is a flavorful, vibrant and significant part of the LDS women's experience. It sounds like a wonderful, collaborative effort and "sisterhood". As I was driving my son to school this morning, I was thinking how nice it would have been if last winter when my son had a virus attack his brain if someone from my church would have visited me and offered assistance (my job was not helpful and he was very ill over the holidays, and couldn't even walk)... or when I went out on bedrest in the spring and still had a household to run and kids to manage and no income... how nice it would have been to have someone from my church drop off a meal. In fact, thinking about those times after reading these posts, it's really quite upsetting to be reminded, or to consider that my own church members did not offer help. Of course, I never thought to ask for anything except prayers, and I can own that too.

As a social worker, I'm feeling very thankful that those of you participating in the RS efforts you've spoken about are doing so. I can very humbly tell you that I see the humanitarianism in your work.

Thanks for the wonderful post.

I too am curious and don't mean to attack you at all but I'm sooo bewildered that this "notion" is out there.

You too are very astute so I'm sure if you thought about it long enough you will figure out where they came. Do you know any LDS?

[MorningStar]

Thanks for sharing, Wants2know. I too have had very positive experiences in Relief Society and love the way women are treated in the church. I'll elaborate on that later after my crazy busy day.

[Wants2know]

Do you know any LDS?

Your welcome. I wasn't offended. I enjoy being challenged!! My fiance is inactive LDS. Many of his family members and friends are currently active. I've spoken to his wonderful mom about some LDS things (mostly theological, we've not discussed RS yet), but most of what I know I've learned from my fiance, this board and my own investigation. I'm sure you are right, if I thought about it long and hard enough I'd figure out where I came by these biases. I'm sure it's a myriad of many things... upbringing, no exposure to LDS (not entirely true... I was a big fan of the Osmonds!!! , the FLDS highlighted in mainstream media, my liberal/feminist education... etc. I've had a handful of other "aha" moments where my "liberal" mind has been challenged to redefine "liberalism" - especially when I've been cornered into seeing that my liberalism is not open mindedness after, but is in fact just as limiting in thought and consideration as is "conservative" thought that does not consider other's thoughts and experiences as being valid or meaningful. That may be the case here as well. As a "surveyor" of LDS theology and practice, I think it's "easy" to compartmentalize roles and definitions, especially considering women's role in an organization where men have the sole "authority" as priesthood holders. And therefore, without further information and understanding, it's "easy" to say that women are subordinated in the LDS church, given the imbalance in "power", if that's how one chooses to see it. Obviously, that is not how many women see it - and I invite further challenges or insights in that regard - from both the men and women participants on this board.

[Wants2know]

OK OK, I couldn't help it.....

My wife graduated cum laude BYU in accounting, she is a CFO.

Funny, funny man!!!

[thesometimesaint]

Wants2know:

I'm a man so I've stayed out of your RS discussions. Our women on the board are much better than it than I am anyway.

As members of the Church we are all subject to at least one man. That man is Jesus the Christ.

[katherine the great]

I was thinking how nice it would have been if last winter when my son had a virus attack his brain if someone from my church would have visited me and offered assistance (my job was not helpful and he was very ill over the holidays, and couldn't even walk)... or when I went out on bedrest in the spring and still had a household to run and kids to manage and no income... how nice it would have been to have someone from my church drop off a meal. In fact, thinking about those times after reading these posts, it's really quite upsetting to be reminded, or to consider that my own church members did not offer help. Of course, I never thought to ask for anything except prayers, and I can own that too.

As a social worker, I'm feeling very thankful that those of you participating in the RS efforts you've spoken about are doing so. I can very humbly tell you that I see the humanitarianism in your work.

I've really enjoyed your posts as you've shared your experiences with job seeking, child rearing and preparing to marry your sweetheart. There is a good chance that, since your fiance is LDS (and presumably still on the church records) that you will actually be assigned visiting teachers eventually or at least home teachers. Even if you are not interested in attending church at all, Relief Society presidents love to provide support for inactive members or the non member spouses of members (active or inactive.) If so, I hope you won't hesitate to communicate your needs to them during difficult times. That really is what it is designed for.

[Garden Girl]

Hello again W2K...

As long as we're describing women's role in the Church, RS, education, etc., let me share a couple of other things... two of my favorites, both held at Brigham Young University (and also other BYU campuses now).

1) EDUCATION WEEK... held at BYU Provo, started 20+ years ago, growing over the years to where now there is EW held at BYU Idaho.

Every year for a week between school terms, BYU opens its facilities including student housing, for members to attend a wide variety of classes... taught by BYU faculty and other educators. Classes range in subject from the religious, to finance/estate planning, to health/nutrition/exercise, to music, to arts, etc etc. I've attended several years and have relished the level of instruction, the classroom setting, the shared "spirit" with other attendees as it really is a special week. (Classes open with prayer). And, on one evening there is a number of "humanitarian" efforts, i.e. packing "hygiene kits" to be shipped all over the world whenever a need arises... or crocheting special bandages for use by hospitals for burn victims... or making quilts by the thousands, also to be used all over the world as needed. I loved standing along side hundreds/thousands of other attendees giving service that will one day help alleviate misery...

2. GENERAL WOMEN'S CONFERENCE. Again, held at BYU, thousands of women attending. This is mainly a RS conference with emphasis on the spiritual approach to home/marriage/family. There are exercise classes/jogging each morning... then speakers/classes throughout the day. Again, an evening of humanitarian service is included.

As a teenager, I remember one of the scriptures we repeated as a "theme" was "The glory of God is intelligence." Education for all members is highly valued. And opportunities for "lifelong learning" are provided, particularly for women.

GG

[mfbukowski]

The thread basically supposed that the church leans over backwards to make women in the church feel valued, and as a byproduct, has inadvertently caused a shift in the male/female relationships where men are feeling like it's accepted practice for women to treat men disrespectfully (there was a lot more to that thread - that is a VERY general synopsis). That entire notion, that the MEN were feeling a lack of support from the church is what shocked my system... and brought me to consider my own biases, and to start this thread. However, I'm certainly aware now that I have more than a peripheral "notion" that women are undervalued in the church, and that perhaps I'm quite wrong about this notion - or at least I'm wrong about many women's perception of their value in the church.

I also didn't want to put in my two cents into a thread for women, but now that you have invited men to participate, I feel better about it.

The reality of my experience with men and women in the church is that men really do bend over backwards to elevate their wives positions above themselves. One of the members of the bishopric recently got married and we were kidding him about how he should always say "yes dear" to his wife, and the usual stuff about "if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy". Of course it was in jest, but there is a very real truth behind it all, and that is that women are clearly the civilizing influence in society. Left to ourselves, men would be.... well let's just say not very civilized. We know that- we have lived as bachelors and in the army, on missions,even as boyscouts etc. Left to ourselves, it just isn't very pretty.

As far as "accepted practice to treat men disrespectfully" I would say, yes it definitely is accepted practice, but that is part of our culture. You cannot watch a TV show that shows a cultured respectable father, all the way back to Archie Bunker, Homer Simpson, Family Guy, etc etc even Ricky Ricardo to a lesser extent- men are the stupid overbearing oafs with the huge egos that everyone makes fun of behind their backs, the Alpha Male who everyone gets back at by putting him down as much as possible.

But guess what? We are used to it! That is the way it works in the church and everywhere else!

But I think LDS men recognize that men and women are not the same and in every way possible our wives really ARE our "better halves"! They are usually the de facto spiritual leaders in the home regardless of what happens in church and everyone knows it.

You know how when you are teaching a class full of kids, a good tactic is to take the rowdiest of the rowdy boys and make him "class president" so you can co-opt him into obeying the rules?

I think that is why men have the "priesthood" in the church- they only way we will live by the rules is if we have to enforce them!

[ACW]

As a "surveyor" of LDS theology and practice, I think it's "easy" to compartmentalize roles and definitions, especially considering women's role in an organization where men have the sole "authority" as priesthood holders. And therefore, without further information and understanding, it's "easy" to say that women are subordinated in the LDS church, given the imbalance in "power", if that's how one chooses to see it. Obviously, that is not how many women see it - and I invite further challenges or insights in that regard - from both the men and women participants on this board.

I have a friend who is a deacon in her church and that LDS women don't/can't hold the priesthood is a big turn off for her and I know she enjoys the "power" her position gives her. This isn't a slam on her in anyway because she gets things done for the benefit of her church.

I guess what outsiders don't know is those of us who support our priesthood leaders are blessed in so many ways. My father never honored his priesthood... my siblings and I were baptized by other men. No family prayers, no father's blessings, no father/daughter activities, etc., nothing. My husband honors his priesthood and may I say WOW what a difference. I'm glad my kids get to have what I did not. We are truly blessesd as a family....I don't think my being ordained could add to the blessings and besides....I just don't want it...I have enough responsibility as is, adding the PH would just send me over the edge.

Besides the General Relief Society presidency, General Young Women's presidency, and the General Primary presidency are in positions of authority and don't hold the priesthood. In the LDS church women don't have to hold the priesthood in order to be effective and matter.

[Wants2know]

Another meandering I've had... jolted by another thread but in line with this one... If the church is "profamily" and it's teachings encourage marriage - does that mean that women who chose to not marry are seen as "less" in the eyes of other members... Bishop... God?????

[blueadept]

Another meandering I've had... jolted by another thread but in line with this one... If the church is "profamily" and it's teachings encourage marriage - does that mean that women who chose to not marry are seen as "less" in the eyes of other members... Bishop... God?????

IMO, this is a minute group of women. From my experience with this group, it's not that they have chosen not to marry. They just have found the right one yet. A good friend (late 40's) and LDS counselor fell into this category and finally got married last year. Women didn't seem to have the guilt complex about being something "less" in the eyes of others. The men that I knew that fell in this category though, seemed to have more 'worthy' issues about this.

Just my experience and observations.

[thesometimesaint]

Wants2know:

No. In fact we had a RS President who was single a few years ago, though not by choice.

[MorningStar]

Another meandering I've had... jolted by another thread but in line with this one... If the church is "profamily" and it's teachings encourage marriage - does that mean that women who chose to not marry are seen as "less" in the eyes of other members... Bishop... God?????

Sheri Dew served in the General Relief Society Presidency and she was never married.

[katherine the great]

Another meandering I've had... jolted by another thread but in line with this one... If the church is "profamily" and it's teachings encourage marriage - does that mean that women who chose to not marry are seen as "less" in the eyes of other members... Bishop... God?????

No, but they are probably secretly envied by some...

[Garden Girl]

Another meandering I've had... jolted by another thread but in line with this one... If the church is "profamily" and it's teachings encourage marriage - does that mean that women who chose to not marry are seen as "less" in the eyes of other members... Bishop... God?????

Hello W2K...

I can assure you that the unmarried LDS woman is not seen as any "less" in anyone's eyes... but... that is not to say it is easy to be a single woman, particularly an "older" single woman in a Church that is so obviously couple/family oriented. Case in point... ME... as a widow with no children, I find so many of the RS lessons family oriented, the conference talks, the various firesides and special programs, etc etc. Because, after all, we are pro-family, pro marriage, etc. But, I can honestly say that in the last years, the First Presidency and the Twelve have done much to reach out to, and assure, the single sisters of their importance to and place in the Church. Pres Hinckley was our prophet when I reactivated 13 years ago and he always spoke to the women... all women... and Pres Faust endeared himself to me with one of the talks he gave at Women's Conference... and the same with Elder Russell M. Ballard in a talk he gave on women and our role in the Church. And then he spoke specifically to the single women, divorced, widowed, never married, and gave such wonderful encouragement and promises to us of the blessings that we have and will have. Yes, I still get a little put off by having to search a little harder for a talk or program that is not on family... but I do understand... particularly in this day and age. The problems facing families today are staggering what with jobs/finances impacting like nothing we've seen in a long time. Not to mention children with peer pressure at school... these are not easy times.

But I know I'm valued... I speak up... I participate... I have a place.

GG

[Wants2know]

I'm glad you commented GG. I was wondering how you felt. Thank you! I wonder about the vacancy of a priesthood member in the home... whether that be by choice or other circumstances and how that impacts a woman's participation in the church, considering that the Priesthood is a vitally important piece of the LDS church and in my understanding, membership. In that case, does the Bishop take responsibility for blessings?