Do they really love you?

[MatthewG]

So I read a comment in another thread that someone was threatened with divorce because the person had lost their belief in the LDS Church. My original thought was, their spouse doesn't love them, why stay with them?

Well it's complicated I suppose, family, kids, friends it can get messy, but why would you want to stay with someone who would divorce you because you stopped believing in the truthfulness of the LDS Church? To me, IMO, says the person doesn't truly love them. I presented the scenario to my wife who agreed, and asked if the person really did love them, why wouldn't they stick it out and try to help said person who has lost their belief to regain it?

I would only divorce someone I truly loved over a religion, if it became more problem and began to snowball into other areas of our lives.

A good friend of ours just resigned from the Church after he lost his belief in it, but his wife, loving him very much, respected his decision and they are still happily married, he even goes to church with her some times because he truly loves her and wants to spend time with her.

Your thoughts, would you divorce someone over religion?

[katherine the great]

No. Not anymore than I would disown a child or parent for losing their faith. We are commanded to love our spouse.

[ERayR]

So I read a comment in another thread that someone was threatened with divorce because the person had lost their belief in the LDS Church. My original thought was, their spouse doesn't love them, why stay with them?

Well it's complicated I suppose, family, kids, friends it can get messy, but why would you want to stay with someone who would divorce you because you stopped believing in the truthfulness of the LDS Church? To me, IMO, says the person doesn't truly love them. I presented the scenario to my wife who agreed, and asked if the person really did love them, why wouldn't they stick it out and try to help said person who has lost their belief to regain it?

I would only divorce someone I truly loved over a religion, if it became more problem and began to snowball into other areas of our lives.

A good friend of ours just resigned from the Church after he lost his belief in it, but his wife, loving him very much, respected his decision and they are still happily married, he even goes to church with her some times because he truly loves her and wants to spend time with her.

Your thoughts, would you divorce someone over religion?

There is a lot of variables. If it was just a loss of faith and nothing more it should be a no . However, I knew a woman that was in my ward whose husband lost his testimony and be came quite antagonistic toward the church and forbad his wife to have any activity or to allow the children any church contact. In my opinion this would constitue grounds for a divorce. He was very controlling and it created an unhealty relationship.

[dblagent007]

If I lost my faith, it would undermine a fundamental reason why my wife married me in the first place. This would be unfair to my wife because I would be, in effect, changing one of the basic underpinnings of our marriage midstream. One of the biggest reasons she agreed to marry me was because of my commitment to the faith (and one of the biggest reasons I married her was her commitment to the faith).

If I lost my faith, I would recognize that I have drastically altered some of the most fundamental aspects of our marriage. I would, therefore, do everything possible to minimize those effects on my wife and family. I would probably still attend church, participate in family home evenings, not attempt to lead the children away from the church, live church standards as I was before, etc.

I just think it is totally unfair to my wife to pull the rug out from under her and then expect her to just take it. If I drastically alter the assumptions that we had when we exchanged vows, then I am the one that must do everything possible to minimize the effect on my wife.

[Bsix]

This is a truely hard and difficult issue. In the end, it is up to each partner to decide what they will do for themselves if faced with this situation.

I would never presume to tell someone what they would do. However, I would fully support a sincere believer if they concluded that the apostacy of their spouse was a marital deal-breaker.

When two religious people enter into a vow of marriage based on mutually agree-upon religious values it is as binding on the marriage as the vow of fidelity. In fact, I consider the abandonment of the religious covenant to be a form of spiritual infidelity.

If a spouse sexually cheats on their partner, the basis of trust and love has been violated. The marriage can be ended on that basis. It is up to the victimized spouse to decide if there is a sufficient basis of hope, trust and need for the partnership of marriage to go on.

Likewise with a marriage base on mutual religious convenant. If a one spouse commits spiritua infidelity through apostacy, the spiritual basis for the marriage has been violated. The marriage can be ended on that basis. It is up to the victimized spouse to decide if there is sufficient basis of hope, trust, and need to for the partnership of marriage to go on.

Lest you think this is a uniquely LDS concern, my mother-in-law told my wife this weekend that the reason that one of the main reasons her Methodist father sought a divorce from her mother was that she had stopped believing in Jesus Christ and no longer wanted to attend Church.

The expectation of a mutual religious marriage covenant before God and witnesses is a very deep and significant thing to many people of faith.

This spiritual infidelity is also made much more difficult when the unbelieving spouse is openly hostile toward religion and influences the children in a negative manner.

Just as a spouse may still love a spouse who has committed adultery, a spiritually betrayed spouse may still love their unbelieving partner...but conclude that the spiritual infidelity is a deal breaker.

It is up to each person to decide what they are willing to live with...or without.

Regards,

Six

[Heartleap]

If I lost my faith, it would undermine a fundamental reason why my wife married me in the first place. This would be unfair to my wife because I would be, in effect, changing one of the basic underpinnings of our marriage midstream. One of the biggest reasons she agreed to marry me was because of my commitment to the faith (and one of the biggest reasons I married her was her commitment to the faith).

If I lost my faith, I would recognize that I have drastically altered some of the most fundamental aspects of our marriage. I would, therefore, do everything possible to minimize those effects on my wife and family. I would probably still attend church, participate in family home evenings, not attempt to lead the children away from the church, live church standards as I was before, etc.

I just think it is totally unfair to my wife to pull the rug out from under her and then expect her to just take it. If I drastically alter the assumptions that we had when we exchanged vows, then I am the one that must do everything possible to minimize the effect on my wife.

If you lost your faith in the LDS Church and Found God calling you somewhere else could you leave your wife behind? Could you let your children be brought up in something you thought was wrong since you truly love them? Or lets say your wife decides the LDS Church is wrong could you let her raise the children in another religion or no faith at all? Would you attend another church occasionally to make her happy? Seeking God first and loving your wife through the trial is the answer, not pretending everything is okay. I have had many reasons I could have just left my spouse but the more we work things through, the stronger we become on the other side of the issue. sometimes minimizing big problems just drags things out and makes it much more painful. I have been in the middle of this issue. I have stuck with my spouse 26 years now and God never seems to stop amazing me...

Heartleap...

[Ms. Jack]

As has already been said, it's a tricky question because it depends on a lot of variables. But assuming that the apostate spouse is willing to do everything to still be a good spouse and try to make his or her partner happy? Then I think divorcing that person is probably the wrong thing to do. A possible point of reference on this:

1 Corinthians 7:12-13

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.

So the apostle Paul counseled people to stay with unbelieving spouses, although even he specifies that he does not feel like he's speaking for God on the matter. And I understand that many would put "unbeliever" and "apostate" in different categories.

I myself made the decision to love someone who had very different religious beliefs before I got married. It's sad to me that there are people who would rather give up on love than stay with someone who believes differently than they do, but I understand how difficult it can be. My own attitude is that so long as he isn't doing anything illegal or inflicting any type of abuse on this family, I'm going to love my husband and stay with him no matter what he throws at me.

[Smith]

............................ I have stuck with my spouse 26 years now and God never seems to stop amazing me...

Heartleap...

Hi Heartleap,

A heart warming story, thanks. I'm not sure I fit in the same boat as you haven't really divulged too much but I feel I can echo your amazement for similar reasons, He is good!

[smac97]

So I read a comment in another thread that someone was threatened with divorce because the person had lost their belief in the LDS Church. My original thought was, their spouse doesn't love them, why stay with them?

Marriage is about more than love.

Or rather I should say that love is about more than simply an inner-felt emotion.

Well it's complicated I suppose, family, kids, friends it can get messy, but why would you want to stay with someone who would divorce you because you stopped believing in the truthfulness of the LDS Church? To me, IMO, says the person doesn't truly love them.

What if the wage-earning spouse one day decides to stop earning a wage?

What is the spouse who is the children's caregiver one day decides to stop taking care of the children?

What if a spouse unilaterally decides one day that the normative expectations of fidelity in marriage don't really apply to him/her?

And on and on and on.

If a spouse enters into a marriage with the understanding that he/she has certain duties and obligations attendant to the marriage, and then thereafter decides to shirk or reject those duties/obligations, I can see how that could create serious problems in a marriage. I could also imagine that the couple may still love each other to some extent, but that the dissonance between the emotion and the behavior may be a big problem.

There is no pat answer here.

I presented the scenario to my wife who agreed, and asked if the person really did love them, why wouldn't they stick it out and try to help said person who has lost their belief to regain it?

Some people divorce who should not do so.

Some people stay together who should not do so.

That said, I agree with the general sentiment expressed above. Marriage should not be lightly entered into or abandoned.

I would only divorce someone I truly loved over a religion, if it became more problem and began to snowball into other areas of our lives.

Hmm. So I take it that religion is not too big a part of your life. That's not the case with observant Latter-day Saints. Religion is at the center of marriage. It binds us together. It informs every aspect of our life together. It's not just something we do for three hours on Sunday and then forget for the next week.

A good friend of ours just resigned from the Church after he lost his belief in it, but his wife, loving him very much, respected his decision and they are still happily married, he even goes to church with her some times because he truly loves her and wants to spend time with her.

Your thoughts, would you divorce someone over religion?

There is no pat answer.

Would you divorce someone over sexual infidelity?

Would you divorce someone over financial irresponsibility?

Would you divorce someone over verbal or physical abuse?

These are broad questions that have no single answer. Individual circumstances must be taken into account.

-Smac

[Jaybear]

I agree with SMAC.

If a temple marriage means a commitment not only to each other, but to the LDS Church, then the apostasy of a spouse breaks the marital commitment. The non-apostate spouse has every right to determine for her/himself whether he/she is willing to remain committed to the marriage, notwithstanding the spouse's loss of faith. After all he/she never made that commitment in the first place.

Most devout Mormons would not have even considered marrying their spouse, if the prospective spouse was not LDS. The apostate spouse should not be the least bit surprised if his/her spouse opts out of a marriage, that never would have happened, but for their mutual belief that JS was a prophet of God.

Its seems rather simple, if you are going to leave the LDS Church, give you spouse a good reasons to make a commitment to the marriage, notwithstanding your divergent beliefs.

[urroner]

Edited:

Urroner chews out young son for pretending to be Urroner.

[ttribe]

Hmm. So I take it that religion is not too big a part of your life. That's not the case with observant Latter-day Saints. Religion is at the center of marriage. It binds us together. It informs every aspect of our life together. It's not just something we do for three hours on Sunday and then forget for the next week.

smac - Matthew is an ardent defender of our faith...you may want to re-think your conclusion here.

[Doctor Steuss]

My opinion (which, as a quasi-bachelor isnâ??t worth much):

There are deal-breakers in every relationship. One personâ??s deal-breaker might seem extremely trivial and petty to me, while one of my deal-breakers might seem trivial and petty to someone else.

I very much doubt I would divorce someone for leaving Mormonism any more than Iâ??d divorce them for becoming a reformed Jew. At the same time, it would be extremely hard to stay with someone who decided to become an ardent NASCAR fan.

[Hoops22]

As has already been said, it's a tricky question because it depends on a lot of variables. But assuming that the apostate spouse is willing to do everything to still be a good spouse and try to make his or her partner happy? Then I think divorcing that person is probably the wrong thing to do. A possible point of reference on this:

1 Corinthians 7:12-13

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.

So the apostle Paul counseled people to stay with unbelieving spouses, although even he specifies that he does not feel like he's speaking for God on the matter. And I understand that many would put "unbeliever" and "apostate" in different categories.

I myself made the decision to love someone who had very different religious beliefs before I got married. It's sad to me that there are people who would rather give up on love than stay with someone who believes differently than they do, but I understand how difficult it can be. My own attitude is that so long as he isn't doing anything illegal or inflicting any type of abuse on this family, I'm going to love my husband and stay with him no matter what he throws at me.

But that's just the Bible. It doesn't really count.

I find it difficult to believe this is really a question. The Bible is clear - no divorce. Of course, there is the caveat in Mt but, as you know, Jesus was... well, it was probably mistranslated anyway.

[smac97]

smac - Matthew is an ardent defender of our faith...you may want to re-think your conclusion here.

My comment wasn't intended to be an accusation. But in retrospect, I can see that it comes across badly.

To the extent I have caused offense, I retract my comment and apologize to Matt.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

I agree with SMAC.

If a temple marriage means a commitment not only to each other, but to the LDS Church, then the apostasy of a spouse breaks the marital commitment. The non-apostate spouse has every right to determine for her/himself whether he/she is willing to remain committed to the marriage, notwithstanding the spouse's loss of faith. After all he/she never made that commitment in the first place.

Most devout Mormons would not have even considered marrying their spouse, if the prospective spouse was not LDS. The apostate spouse should not be the least bit surprised if his/her spouse opts out of a marriage, that never would have happened, but for their mutual belief that JS was a prophet of God.

Its seems rather simple, if you are going to leave the LDS Church, give you spouse a good reasons to make a commitment to the marriage, notwithstanding your divergent beliefs.

I agree.

With something like someone leaving the LDS faith who was once a very active and believing member, that's a bigger issue than just having a difference of beliefs. As you said, such a change impacts the fundamental foundation that the marriage was built on-meaning that the marriage probably never would have happened at all if the person's change in beliefs had occured before the marriage occured.

It's one thing to know going into a marriage that you are choosing to yoke yourselve with someone who believes differently-but it's another thing to choose differently and then have that forced upon you later.

Speaking for myself, i wouldn't divorce my husband unless his new beliefs changed the way he treated me, our children and our beliefs and even then, it would have to be clear that there was no way to move past the new issues. I agree with others who have said that a marriage is always worth fighting for and is a serious committment not just to be thrown aside when the unexpected comes your way.

[bluebell]

I find it difficult to believe this is really a question. The Bible is clear - no divorce.

No divorce no matter what?

[Olavarria]

Im not married so im not really qualified to answer this but, from the outside looking in, it seems to me that the ethics of my spouse is more important than the theology of my spouse. What my wife does with her hands is more important than what she does with her mind.

Getting her name taken off the records of the church=not be a deal breaker.

Getting her name taken off the records of the church and then writing an anti mormon book=irreconcilable difference.

She can do what she wants with her religion, or lack of. But when she starts to try to get me to go down the same path, then we have a problem.

[Luigi]

This is a truely hard and difficult issue. In the end, it is up to each partner to decide what they will do for themselves if faced with this situation.

I would never presume to tell someone what they would do. However, I would fully support a sincere believer if they concluded that the apostacy of their spouse was a marital deal-breaker.

When two religious people enter into a vow of marriage based on mutually agree-upon religious values it is as binding on the marriage as the vow of fidelity. In fact, I consider the abandonment of the religious covenant to be a form of spiritual infidelity.

If a spouse sexually cheats on their partner, the basis of trust and love has been violated. The marriage can be ended on that basis. It is up to the victimized spouse to decide if there is a sufficient basis of hope, trust and need for the partnership of marriage to go on.

Likewise with a marriage base on mutual religious convenant. If a one spouse commits spiritua infidelity through apostacy, the spiritual basis for the marriage has been violated. The marriage can be ended on that basis. It is up to the victimized spouse to decide if there is sufficient basis of hope, trust, and need to for the partnership of marriage to go on.

Lest you think this is a uniquely LDS concern, my mother-in-law told my wife this weekend that the reason that one of the main reasons her Methodist father sought a divorce from her mother was that she had stopped believing in Jesus Christ and no longer wanted to attend Church.

The expectation of a mutual religious marriage covenant before God and witnesses is a very deep and significant thing to many people of faith.

This spiritual infidelity is also made much more difficult when the unbelieving spouse is openly hostile toward religion and influences the children in a negative manner.

Just as a spouse may still love a spouse who has committed adultery, a spiritually betrayed spouse may still love their unbelieving partner...but conclude that the spiritual infidelity is a deal breaker.

It is up to each person to decide what they are willing to live with...or without.

Regards,

Six

Well this works, as long as one assumes the Church is true. I don't think you would label a Catholic who joined Mormonism and caused tension in their marriage guilty of 'spiritual infidelity'.

[Hoops22]

No divorce no matter what?

I think the above scriptures make that clear, don't you?

But now here we go with, "well, what if he's beating his wife and kids, etc., etc., etc.," which then is quickly translates into "well, if one leaves the lds church, then that's like abuse - it's spiritual abuse" or whatever.

No, the Bible is clear. Leaving the lds church, or sbc church, or lutheran church is not grounds for divorce.

[Garden Girl]

I agree with and appreciate the comments by dblagent and Bsix... but I'll tell you one thing that makes me foam at the mouth... a spouse who loses faith, and then "forbids" the wife from attending or having anything to do with the Church... how does he even remotely think that he has a right to do so? To try and undermine their family's faith just because he lost his belief??

I don't know what I would have done had my husband not been so supportive when I returned to Church... after all, I was sort of the reverse scenario... he married a woman not attending Church, who loved to gamble occasionally, didn't keep the WoW, loved to golf on Sunday afternoons, etc etc, and suddenly 30 years later I become active again, including regular temple attendance. However, he did know my LDS history, and enjoyed our close association with my TBM folks...

the only serious hurdle was my paying tithing. He objected, and I told him as quietly and lovingly as I could that I was going to tithe on my pensions only...pensions that I worked full time for 30 years to earn. He didn't like it, but knew better than to push it (my being the loving and supportive, but strong, woman I was for over 30 years). So each month I quietly paid my tithing (we had had separate checking accts for years) and we didn't miss it... it was a non-issue.

The point is, I was not the same woman he had married or spent 30 years with in the sense that I now acted on my spiritual nature... I think he "got" that it was my upbringing within the Church that most contributed to my being who I was, and those values and standards that had attracted him...

I didn't try and push my religion on him... and he was supportive of me as he could be... it worked for us.

Garden Girl

[LifeOnaPlate]

I used to think I would, but more so now I believe that my love for my wife would transcend that difference.

[dblagent007]

If you lost your faith in the LDS Church and Found God calling you somewhere else could you leave your wife behind?

Nope. I made a commitment to her and I intend to keep it.

Could you let your children be brought up in something you thought was wrong since you truly love them?

Yup, I could.

Or lets say your wife decides the LDS Church is wrong could you let her raise the children in another religion or no faith at all?

She would be the one that is changing a basic fundamental foundation of the marriage midstream so I would expect her to respect that the children will be raised in the original faith the marriage was predicated on.

Would you attend another church occasionally to make her happy?

No. In your scenario, she was the one that changed the marital contract.

Seeking God first and loving your wife through the trial is the answer, not pretending everything is okay.

No one said anything about pretending.

I have had many reasons I could have just left my spouse but the more we work things through, the stronger we become on the other side of the issue. sometimes minimizing big problems just drags things out and makes it much more painful. I have been in the middle of this issue. I have stuck with my spouse 26 years now and God never seems to stop amazing me...

I think it's great that you have stayed together for 26 years.

[Luigi]

I agree with and appreciate the comments by dblagent and Bsix... but I'll tell you one thing that makes me foam at the mouth... a spouse who loses faith, and then "forbids" the wife from attending or having anything to do with the Church... how does he even remotely think that he has a right to do so? To try and undermine their family's faith just because he lost his belief??

I think most exmormons would agree this is inappropriate. I've only heard of this happening once (just now on this thread) and it's unfortunate-but I think (or at least hope) it is quite rare.

[Hoops22]

[

agree with and appreciate the comments by dblagent and Bsix... but I'll tell you one thing that makes me foam at the mouth... a spouse who loses faith, and then "forbids" the wife from attending or having anything to do with the Church... how does he even remotely think that he has a right to do so?

Because he's the head of the house?

I know lot's of churches I would forbid my wife from attending.

To try and undermine their family's faith just because he lost his belief??

You state that like it's something trivial.