Do they really love you?

[ERayR]

I think Luigi raises a good point. How often do we hear about how couragous an LDS convert was to lose their family and choose the gospel, yet a Mormon who leaves Mormonism has "torn his/her family apart".

It depends on who you are talking to. From many LDS families yes but from a non-LDS family it is just the opposite. I have friends who left their family religion and converted to Mormonism. The ones whose family was devout in thier own religion felt that the one who had converted to LDS was tearing the family apart.

My wifes uncle and aunt had their oldest son who married a Baptist ministers daughter converted to become a Baptist and even became a Baptist minister himself. I can assure you that they were disappointed but it in no way tore teh family appart. Family get togethers were just as fun and comfortable as ever.

[katherine the great]

So you are saying that someone who resigns is not an apostate, unless they publicly badmouth and fight against the church?

Interesting.

Someone who resigns may be considered an apostate, but the question of this thread is whether we would divorce someone who stopped believing.

[emeliza]

I don't believe I would, but I am a convert with no one else in my family that is a member living in an area with a smaller number of LDS people. Most of my friends are not LDS. So long as my spouse didn't expect me to give up my religious beliefs or practices, we would work it out. I do think it would be hard though if we have children and the husband didn't want to raise them LDS.

[Bsix]

I think Luigi raises a good point. How often do we hear about how couragous an LDS convert was to lose their family and choose the gospel, yet a Mormon who leaves Mormonism has "torn his/her family apart".

I think I answered that concept.

The 'heroics' of leaving one religion for another...and the resulting familial discord is all a matter of perspective. In traditional Christian circles, there is often great celebration over brave former Mormons standing up to the family and Church control and converting. If Mormon family members object, they are cast as the bad cops.

I knew a Jewish person on my mission who converted to Mormonism. Her family was so disraught that they formally disowned her and even held a funeral for her.

When it comes to honoring religious marital vows, I suppose the hero or the spiritual adulterer depends on which side of the religious divide you sit.

Regards,

Six

[bluebell]

I think Luigi raises a good point. How often do we hear about how couragous an LDS convert was to lose their family and choose the gospel, yet a Mormon who leaves Mormonism has "torn his/her family apart".

It only makes sense, if one is of the belief that the LDS church is God's truth.

If it IS true, then sacrificing things for it will always be courageous and leaving it will always be a mistake.

You can't fault people for reacting to this issue according to their own personal truth-it would be illogical for them to react in any other way. You can certainly disagree with their reactions, but that only reinforces the idea that you feel it's reasonable for you to react to their beliefs according to your own beliefs, so it must also be reasonable for them to do the same.

[Pandorian]

I believe you are referring to my comment I made in another thread.

My wife and I DID almost divorce. However, life happens

My best friend at work was killed, and I lost my job, and our house flooded, etc. ALL during this last year.

I don't know for sure if JS was a con man, a sociopath, or a prophet of God with 100% certainty in any direction, however, I do know that God has been in control this last year because despite that, these trials have forced us to pull together more than we ever have before.

I figure if God is just, he will tell me the details when I am on the other side, and all the BS regarding the Churches truth or untruth, and everything else will be resolved then.

Let God take care of the details.

[Pandorian]

I believe you are referring to my comment I made in another thread.

My wife and I DID almost divorce. However, life happens

My best friend at work was killed, and I lost my job, and our house flooded, etc. ALL during this last year.

I don't know for sure if JS was a con man, a sociopath, or a prophet of God with 100% certainty in any direction, however, I do know that God has been in control this last year because despite that, these trials have forced us to pull together more than we ever have before.

I figure if God is just, he will tell me the details when I am on the other side, and all the BS regarding the Churches truth or untruth, and everything else will be resolved then.

Let God take care of the details.

Basically, I guess God gave me so much more important stuff to worry about this last year, TSCC, became the least of my problems.

[Scottie]

Basically, I guess God gave me so much more important stuff to worry about this last year, TSCC, became the least of my problems.

LOL I haven't seen TSCC since my RfM days.

[bluebell]

LOL I haven't seen TSCC since my RfM days.

What does it stand for?

[Luigi]

When it comes to honoring religious marital vows, I suppose the hero or the spiritual adulterer depends on which side of the religious divide you sit.

If it IS true, then sacrificing things for it will always be courageous and leaving it will always be a mistake.

It would seem then that the source of all these familial conflicts we are discussing is people being confident that God is supporting their particular faith. I would have to agree that if one is sure that God supports a certain religion then it would be unreasonable to care how many relationships were torn apart by isolating believers from the influence of non-believers.

[Pandorian]

What does it stand for?

The So Called Church

When you are talking to people and you say THE Church, most Mormons ASSUME it is the LDS Church. Of course the person might have been referring to the Catholics, the Buddists, the Pentacostals, etc., and NOT necessarily to the LDS Church.

So if you go to Rome and someone says something about THE Church, don't say "Oh yeah, President Monson..."

They will probably give you a blank stare or ask "WHO?"

[bluebell]

o if you go to Rome and someone says something about THE Church, don't say "Oh yeah, President Monson..."

They will probably give you a blank stare or ask "WHO?"

I agree, and it seems many other members do as well since i've never heard a member refer to 'the church' unless they were speaking to mormon. Is it common where you are from for members to refer to the LDS church as 'the church' to nonmembers?

[bluebell]

It would seem then that the source of all these familial conflicts we are discussing is people being confident that God is supporting their particular faith.

No, the source of familial conflicts is how individuals relate to others when they themselves believe that God is supporting their particular faith, or how individuals relate to those who don't believe their families position is supported by God.

As with most things, it's the people behind the belief system/lack of belief system that cause all the trouble and not the belief/lack of belief systems themselves.

I would have to agree that if one is sure that God supports a certain religion then it would be unreasonable to care how many relationships were torn apart by isolating believers from the influence of non-believers.

Well then, you're not agree with ME, because i don't think it's ever unreasonable to care about the feelings of others, no matter what they believe. Just because someone believes it is courageous for another to sacrifice for their beliefs, doesn't mean that that person doesn't care that such sacrifice causes hurt.

It's common mis-characterization for non-theists to assume that all theists would feel that way.

[rpn]

Apostasy is NOT one of the "approved" reasons for divorce.

And divorcing because of loss of faith is NOT consistent with honoring marriage covenants made with God, nor consistent with the way Jesus would do it since it does not show unconditional love.

(BTW, for those who don't know, there is a website called faceseast.org , devoted to people whose spouse no longer or never believed and who are trying to make their marriages work anyway.)

And I think that faithful spouses who do it might actually eventually be judged less perfect than those whom they divorced because of loss of faith, because it suggests that the faithful spouse should have known and done better. And because the rejection disregards agency.

OTOH, sometimes such situations disintegrate into abuse, and THAT IS an "approved" reason for divorce.

[Luigi]

No, the source of familial conflicts is how individuals relate to others when they themselves believe that God is supporting their particular faith, or how individuals relate to those who don't believe their families position is supported by God.

As with most things, it's the people behind the belief system/lack of belief system that cause all the trouble and not the belief/lack of belief systems themselves.

So the fact that someone believes that their spouse, son, daughter, brother, etc is an apostate and that association with them could consequently imperil their immortal souls and the souls of their children and other associates is in no way a source of conflict? Okay.

Well then, you're not agree with ME, because i don't think it's ever unreasonable to care about the feelings of others, no matter what they believe. Just because someone believes it is courageous for another to sacrifice for their beliefs, doesn't mean that that person doesn't care that such sacrifice causes hurt.

It's common mis-characterization for non-theists to assume that all theists would feel that way.

Good point. I suppose instead of care I should say that if you were confident in your religious faith's veracity it would be unreasonable to make any effort to salvage any relationship if it even in the slightest way imperiled anyone else's belief.

[Luigi]

Apostasy is NOT one of the "approved" reasons for divorce.

I didn't know the LDS Church had an "approved' list of reasons for divorce. I have always heard rather vague instructions to when divorce is considered appropriate.

[MatthewG]

smac - Matthew is an ardent defender of our faith...you may want to re-think your conclusion here.

Thank you for speaking up, I was a bit taken back that anyone could think I didn't take my religion seriously.

[MatthewG]

My comment wasn't intended to be an accusation. But in retrospect, I can see that it comes across badly.

To the extent I have caused offense, I retract my comment and apologize to Matt.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thank you for the apology.

To any person that should have any doubt about my belief, or my position towards the LDS faith Please Read or if you don't want to read the whole thing, atleast read the last paragraph.

-Smac I will address some points in your original post when I get finished making lunch for my daughter.

[bluebell]

So the fact that someone believes that their spouse, son, daughter, brother, etc is an apostate and that association with them could consequently imperil their immortal souls and the souls of their children and other associates is in no way a source of conflict? Okay.

Even in the example you have provided, it's the person who makes the difference, not the belief.

I have a two family members who have left the LDS church-one through an excommunication, and i DON'T believe that means that i'm in any peril by associating with them and i've been associating with them as loved members of my family for years.

But someone else might be faced with the same situation in their family but come to a different conclusion.

Thus we have two people, who belong to the same church, who would react to an 'apostate' in their family in two very different ways....

Like it said, it's the person, and not the belief, that makes the difference.

Good point. I suppose instead of care I should say that if you were confident in your religious faith's veracity it would be unreasonable to make any effort to salvage any relationship if it even in the slightest way imperiled anyone else's belief.

Again, i disagree.

I believe it's always reasonable to put for every effort possible to salvage relationships, but the definition of 'possible' would logically be tempered with my beliefs. I wouldn't include a sacrifice of my own beliefs as a possible effort to salvage a relationship-but unless the relationship in question was with someone who demanded such a sacrifice, and since i would never demand that sacrifice of anyone either, there would be a lot of middle ground between us to work something out while retaining our friendship/family ties.

[cinepro]

I think there can be a lot of fear on both sides of the marriage. Certainly, the "unfaithful" spouse might worry that the TBM spouse might leave them to find a new eternal companion. But it would be perfectly logical for the TBM spouse to worry that the doubting spouse might lose faith in the marriage in addition to losing faith in the Church, and move on.

Regardless of what happens, I think both spouses can be guaranteed a lot of stress, many sleepless nights, and a good share of disagreement over acceptable behavior (tithing, church attendance, FHM etc.).

Whether divorce is the appropriate end result, only the couple can know. But I would be inclined to say that it usually isn't, unless the doubting spouse drastically changes their behavior, or the believing spouse is a zealot.

[Hoops22]

So, it's 'clear' that the bible teaches no divorce, except of course, where it's obvious that the bible isn't teaching against divorce, such as with abuse?

Nope. I was trying to head off the inevitable arguments where we can cast aside the clear teaching. Here it is:

No divorce.

[Hoops22]

Hello Hoops... hope you had a good Christmas and are now looking forward to the new year...

I did! It was awesome!! And I am looking forward to a new year, going to be very exciting. Hope the same to you.

1) head of house... he started out as the head of an LDS household[/i

Still head of the house.

] with all the covenants and implications of the marriage and belief system. Now suddenly because he changes, he expects the household to change?

Well, he is head of the house. That must mean something.

And tries to force his changed views on the family that once looked to him as that head, their spiritual leader of the home.

Perspective. I wonder what the argument would be if he were an ev who suddenly embraced mormonism and then "forced" his views on the home.

2) No hoops... I don't think it is trivial at all...

Didn't really think you did.

I

love New Year's Eve... it is filled with hope, excitement, anticipation... I think of it as one of my blank canvases, just waiting for me to raise my brush and begin the strokes that will form this new year. May yours be filled with health and all things good....

Same to you.

Only more of it.

[bluebell]

No divorce.

So, no matter what the man does (sexual molestation of children, emotional and physical abuse, flagrant adultery etc..)-the woman is never justified in divorcing him?

And likewise, no matter what the woman does (sexual molestation of children, emotional and physical abuse, flagrant adultery etc..)-the man is never justified in divorcing her?

You believe the bible teaches that, correct? (just making sure i'm understanding you right)

[MatthewG]

Your attitude has probably helped your wife immensely. I know people who think they would leave their spouse if they left the church, (or cheated on them, or hit them, etc.) but I guess that none of us really KNOW what we would do until we are actually in the situation. If a couple really love each other and are BOTH willing to do whatever they can to keep their marriage together, I think we can overcome most anything.

I know this isn't directed at me, but I wanted to thank you for this post. It expresses what I was thinking reading some of the previous posts!

[MatthewG]

So, no matter what the man does (sexual molestation of children, emotional and physical abuse, flagrant adultery etc..)-the woman is never justified in divorcing him?

And likewise, no matter what the woman does (sexual molestation of children, emotional and physical abuse, flagrant adultery etc..)-the man is never justified in divorcing her?

You believe the bible teaches that, correct? (just making sure i'm understanding you right)

I don't care what the bible teaches about divorce, if my wife started to beat me or sexually cheat on me, I wouldn't hesitate to divorce her. Those passages were written 2000 years ago in entirely different culture and time where women were treated as property and had little say in anything including whom they married. I support the Church's position on divorce.