Do they really love you?

[talisyn]

One could argue, and I might, that Jesus' point here is noting that Joseph did not divorce Mary, though he could have.

Well, Joseph was, but he did have that heaven-sent vision telling him to not do it. Fortunately he was a righteous man and listened to the message. Would that all husbands could be as righteous as Joseph.

In other news, Utah 31 - Alabama 17. Sorry, I just had to let it out. Go Utes!

[Hoops22]

Well, Joseph was, but he did have that heaven-sent vision telling him to not do it. Fortunately he was a righteous man and listened to the message. Would that all husbands could be as righteous as Joseph.

In other news, Utah 31 - Alabama 17. Sorry, I just had to let it out. Go Utes!

Exactly my point.

[MatthewG]

Anyone is free to do so and come to their own conclusion.

I stand by my commentary. I can not anticipate what you MEANT to write, I can only comment upon what you ACTUALLY write.

Which is why discussing anything with an anti-mormon is a waste of time, you lie, lie some more and wont admit when your wrong.

You intentionally broke up what I said to falsely represent my beliefs.

Why not go troll CARM they need more bottom dwellers.

[MJNSW]

I think most exmormons would agree this is inappropriate. I've only heard of this happening once (just now on this thread) and it's unfortunate-but I think (or at least hope) it is quite rare.

It happens and it temporarily happened in my marriage. My husband discovered that the church was not true and felt as if he had been lied to his entire life. He got really bitter. The problem we had is that we were both raised TBM and our families both TBM - we were married in the temple and now had 4 kids at the time (now 5).

It hit me very hard because it felt like eternity and all my dreams were over for us. I had to re think what I believed and felt. In the end I felt that life without my husband would be HELL. I can't imagine a God saying that we could not be eternal mates because my husband did not believe that JS was a true prophet and thus the church not true. So I am still with him and very happy.

When he was angry though, and I was frustrated at his turn in beliefs... we both realized the affect it would have on our children, so he was about to have our records removed from the church. Of coarse - another blow out and such. Then I decided the fighting was not worth it and not the way I wanted my children to be raised. We love God and recognize his hand in our lives.

We go to church once in a blue moon, but we do teach our children many of the principals we were raised. Just not that the church is the "true" church. They will decide for themselves when they are older. Our home is much more peaceful without the contention of the church issues. It has been an interesting road - but I have faith that God knows each of our hearts and will help us through our lives as we choose to do what is right for us and our family. You know - the important thing is to have a personal relationship with GOD, and that is what we rely on.

I'm surprised that there are so many people on this thread who equate loss of faith with apostasy. They are not the same thing.

I agree 100%

LDS leaders define apostasy in terms of action, not thought. Apostates are generally defined as enemies of the church, not simply a person who has stopped believing in it's divine origin. A person can (and often does) stop going to church without turning against every principle the church stands for. If a person leaves the church, abandons all of it's teachings and starts publicly badmouthing the church and it's leaders and fighting against it, then they are an apostate. If every inactive and unbelieving member were considered apostate then there would be no effort to reactivate them.

However - Apostasy is not leaving the church - it is leaving GOD. God is not the church and the church is not God. The church is an instrument leading to GOD.

Anyway - There are so many instances, but if a spouse leaves because of their belief in a religion... that is sad. I don't think that the love was that strong then. You don't know if there are other reasons or not to them leaving(edited to add I mean leaving their spouse - not the church.) One thing I can attest to is the social matter. Socially it is super hard to remain in the church when your spouse leaves. Especially if you have children. What do you teach them? Who is going to bless them? Then you deal with people allowing their kids to play with yours. How you are treated by those in and out of church (especially if you live in Utah.) Social status is more than just that, it is more of a social LIFESTYLE. (I currently have a sister in law who refuses to speak with us or allow her husband to speak to us because we did not understand the big deal about the California Prop eighty-something.) In the end you have to work it out the best you can. In our home we have lots of family time. We focus on each other. We value the many lessons we have been raised with, such as no smoking, drinking, etc. We do not teach what my husband believes as untrue. After all - our children are OUR children. Not MINE and not HIS. We are open minded and still have a great love and respect for what we were brought up with. When it comes to the temple. If we were to go to a temple recommend interview we could easily pass - except that Joseph Smith is not a true prophet in our home.

Anyway, that is a bit of our story. I guess it is hard to understand unless you have lived through it yourself. I don't recommend the life altering change - but it has brought us closer in many ways.

[Moon Quaker]

After my non-belief came into the open, understandably, my ex-wife had a hard time coping with it. As an atheist, by default, I was a deal breaker when it came to my "celestial marriage." The first couple of weeks was especially hard on my ex-wife. But after about three weeks, when things really seemed to be going uphill for us, my ex-wife left her e-mail inbox open. Seeing an e-mail from her father, my curosity overcame me. In it, he told her that I was not a good father, "... a viper" and that she should keep our two toddler boys as far away from me as possible. He told her that divorce was the only viable option for her.

That actually brought me to tears and, ironically, the bishop was the only person I was comfortable sharing my discovery with. Here I thought things seemed to be going for the best, and then I am given that low blow. On more than one occasion, as "my" bishop speaking to an atheist, he told me that "if there is a loving god, I don't think he wants the two of you to get divorced." I didn't think divorce was the answer either. Like others have mentioned, as the so-called deal breaker, I knew that just giving up on church altogether wouldn't help. So I attended church upto the day of the divorce (even for the last few months when we were separated [i was living with my parents] I still attended church by myself at my parents' ward in an effort to do all that I could do.) I had no qualms about my boys being raised in the church and I had no plans or desires to hinder any of that.

Word eventually got to my ex-father-in-law that the bishop was telling us that divorce is NOT the answer. So get this, my ex-father-in-law (in the greater Kansas City area) calls the bishop (in SLC) and tells him that he's giving out bad advice (apparently that spiritual stewardship boundary rule doesn't apply to my ex-father-in-law. Obviously his "revelations" trumped anything the bishop had to say on the matter.)

Prior to us choosing to be separated, my ex-wife kicked me out of the house for a few months. That was nothing less than I expected. Not because I deserved it (which I did not) but because she has seen her [chemically imbalanced] mom kick her dad out of the house more than once. It was such a commonplace practice that I wasn't going to argue and make things worse (she claimed her mom's past behavior had no influence on her, but whatever.) She said she couldn't live with my "darkness" (which she claimed she could feel. The funny thing is, when my non-belief was kept a secret, she didn't seem to feel any "darkness" from me. I was no different than I was before; go figure.)

Now had I been abusive to her or cheated on her or actively opposed her (or the boys') activity in the church, etc. etc., yes, kicking me out would be understandable. But tell any rational person that I was kicked out because I lost belief and she "feels darkness" coming from me, they'll [rightfully] think that my ex-wife is crazy.

Over a two-week period, I read the entire BoM more intently than I ever did as a TBM (my ex-father-in-law challenged me to read only "church-approved" material and pray for answers. I took him up on his offer.) Ironically, I got more out of the BoM at that time than I ever did before during my TBM studies. Then when I was praying about everything, and getting nothing from Mr. Holy Ghost, it hit me; [Moon Quaker], you're doing it all wrong. Perhaps there is a god, but what if he's not Bible god, but actually a non-petty, non-jealous deistic-type god. I felt more peace with myself about such a god than I ever did about the Mormon god. I thought my ex-wife would actually appreciate my epiphany ("hey, any god is better than no god" right? Wrong!) Not even realizing how insulting she was, she swept my spiritual experience under the rug and told me she felt darkness when I shared that experience with her. AHHHHHHHHHH! Basically she wanted me to have a Mormon spiritual experience; any other spiritual experience (regardless of how meaningful it may be to me) she would only equate with the devil.

After two years of jumping through her (and her dad's) hoops, I gave up and told her that I was done and had no desire to work things out anymore. And we got divorced. Putting up with what I did (for as long as I did) I can truly say that my ex-wife didn't marry me; she married the church regardless of anything about me (with her dad as the "back-seat driver.") And just over one month after our divorce, she was exclusively seeing/dating a "worthy" Mormon. And within three months of our divorce, they got married.

Needless to say, despite my atheism, all of my good TBM friends and family regard me as the one who is sane, reasonable and down-to-earth.

[ADDENDUM]

Upon meeting with our divorce mediator (who coincidentally was LDS) my ex-wife was scraping our already-fallen-apart relationship for real irreconcilable differences to make the divorce seem less trivial. And that's not just my one-sided version of things; my ex-wife actually told me that she came up with "real" divorce reasons so that the mediator wouldn't think she was crazy for divorcing me because I simply lost belief in the church (like the mediator really cares anyway; she gets paid to facilitate divorces, period.)

[Anijen]

Anyone is free to do so and come to their own conclusion.

I stand by my commentary. I can not anticipate what you MEANT to write, I can only comment upon what you ACTUALLY write.

Actually Hoops the way you broke his words up I read it the exact way as how Matthew G said you did. Since you said anyone, and I am part of anyone (as in John 3:16 since I believe, I have eternal life) my two cents are that you did it that way intentionally to misquote Matthew G.

[charity's child]

I know it's late in the discussion, but can I just add my two cents? Having been married twice, first to a member who went inactive then to a non-member who was later baptized, I have some perspective on this.

Not to get into details, I would just like to mention that sometimes a couple divorce not because one stopped believing as the other did, but because one or the other made it an issue. If a couple do not believe the same things, they can still respect each other's belief and be supportive of their choices. My husband and I chose to accept each other as faithful believing people who simply believe differently. We attended church with each other, attended social events with each other (although my church had a lot more social events than his) and in short cared enough about each other to accept each other. He took the missionary discussions at my request as a way of learning more about me, and I would have done the same for him had he asked (which he didn't). Eventually, of his own choice, he took the missionary discussions again and was baptized. But our marriage was strong from the beginning, not just from the day he joined the church.

On the other hand, someone who will not attend anything with you, refuses to support you in your beliefs, and considers you somehow inferior because you actually believe what they teach at church is not very conducive to a happy marriage. Sometimes the marriage fails not because the spouse left the church but because at the same time he/she left the marriage and just never made it official.

[charity's child]

Needless to say, despite my atheism, all of my good TBM friends and family regard me as the one who is sane, reasonable and down-to-earth.

[ADDENDUM]

Upon meeting with our divorce mediator (who coincidentally was LDS) my ex-wife was scraping our already-fallen-apart relationship for real irreconcilable differences to make the divorce seem less trivial. And that's not just my one-sided version of things; my ex-wife actually told me that she came up with "real" divorce reasons so that the mediator wouldn't think she was crazy for divorcing me because I simply lost belief in the church (like the mediator really cares anyway; she gets paid to facilitate divorces, period.)

I am sorry you had such a difficult time. I am not the judge, but the behavior of your ex and her father are not very representative of the faith. More of the "letter of the law" crowd (the ones who forget the "spirit of the law").

I am very sorry you see God as we believe him to be as petty and jealous. I've always seen him as very loving and forgiving. But that's a subject for a different thread.

[Hoops22]

Actually Hoops the way you broke his words up I read it the exact way as how Matthew G said you did. Since you said anyone, and I am part of anyone (as in John 3:16 since I believe, I have eternal life) my two cents are that you did it that way intentionally to misquote Matthew G.

Of course you do. I would not expect anything else.

But a sensible reading of what I wrote does not warrant his determination.

[Ms. Jack]

After my non-belief came into the open, understandably, my ex-wife had a hard time coping with it. As an atheist, by default, I was a deal breaker when it came to my "celestial marriage." The first couple of weeks was especially hard on my ex-wife. But after about three weeks, when things really seemed to be going uphill for us, my ex-wife left her e-mail inbox open. Seeing an e-mail from her father, my curosity overcame me. In it, he told her that I was not a good father, "... a viper" and that she should keep our two toddler boys as far away from me as possible. He told her that divorce was the only viable option for her.

That is really sad MQ. I had something similar happen when my husband was seeking a divorce.

My husband's parents were never very happy with his marriage to a non-member; nevertheless I tried hard to be a good daughter-in-law for the first year of our marriage. I remembered everyone's birthdays, I sent out cards and presents, I talked with them whenever they called on the phone and did my best to culture a good relationship. I called them "Mom" and "Dad."

When my husband started saying he wanted a divorce because he wanted to get married in the temple, I had hoped his parents would take my side and give their son godly counsel. It was obviously against both church doctrine and the Bible for a man to divorce his wife just because she was not a believer, and I thought surely they would see that.

After some time, we were legally separated and I was trying to persuade him to move back in with me and give things another chance. I got nosey one day and checked his e-mail account. I found an e-mail there from his parents saying to just divorce me as quickly as possible, saying they would pay for it all and warning him to not move back in with me because then I would just try to get pregnant. Then, they said, I would have "another thing to manipulate [him] with, i.e. baby."

I guess my story has a happier ending, since my husband eventually came to his senses and we did get back together. I've never felt the same way about his parents though. I'm friendly to them, and I do my best to let them be involved in their granddaughter's life, but I don't call them "Mom" and "Dad" anymore. I don't know what they can do to earn that back, but whatever it is they haven't done it yet.

Anyways, I am sorry that your wife was so horrible to you. That is very sad.

[MJNSW]

It is amazing the affect and influence that outside people can have. Often I find that they can make or break a situation - especially like these.

[urroner]

That is really sad MQ. I had something similar happen when my husband was seeking a divorce.

My husband's parents were never very happy with his marriage to a non-member; nevertheless I tried hard to be a good daughter-in-law for the first year of our marriage. I remembered everyone's birthdays, I sent out cards and presents, I talked with them whenever they called on the phone and did my best to culture a good relationship. I called them "Mom" and "Dad."

When my husband started saying he wanted a divorce because he wanted to get married in the temple, I had hoped his parents would take my side and give their son godly counsel. It was obviously against both church doctrine and the Bible for a man to divorce his wife just because she was not a believer, and I thought surely they would see that.

After some time, we were legally separated and I was trying to persuade him to move back in with me and give things another chance. I got nosey one day and checked his e-mail account. I found an e-mail there from his parents saying to just divorce me as quickly as possible, saying they would pay for it all and warning him to not move back in with me because then I would just try to get pregnant. Then, they said, I would have "another thing to manipulate [him] with, i.e. baby."

I guess my story has a happier ending, since my husband eventually came to his senses and we did get back together. I've never felt the same way about his parents though. I'm friendly to them, and I do my best to let them be involved in their granddaughter's life, but I don't call them "Mom" and "Dad" anymore. I don't know what they can do to earn that back, but whatever it is they haven't done it yet.

Anyways, I am sorry that your wife was so horrible to you. That is very sad.

Jack, I am really thrilled that you and your hubby are back together for two reasons. First, the two of you make a really cute couple and secondly, if you did end up divorced, I was going to marry you to show your ex what he was really missing, but that meant you having to be a stepmother to my sons and I really wish that on nobody.

His parents may have been on the wrong side of the issue, but there were plenty of people around you who were telling your hubby what a big mistake he was making and what the consequences would be.

When Eve partook of the fruit, I believe that Adam then had a choice, either stay in the Garden without Eve or partake of the fruit and be with Eve. He choose to be with Eve. In a situation where somebody leaves the Church, or makes some drastic change in their life that changes the foundation on what the marriage was built upon, the other person sometimes has to make the decision if it would be better to stay in the Garden or to leave it. There is no single answer, each situation is different. In some cases, it's best to stay in the Garden, other times it's best to leave the Garden and each person has to decide what each of them entails. The Garden could be staying in the marriage or maybe it could be staying with the Church.

My first wife went inactive right after she left me. Years later, we talked about getting together again, but I had realized that the rift was so large between us and our goals, that a marriage had no chance in succeeding. She was demanding that I make a lot of changes that I wasn't willing to make. I tried compromises, but she refused. This is what happens where two people start heading down very different paths and much that was common between the two earlier is no longer common and there more uncommon then common. Marriage is tough enough without throwing in a big difference of belief paradigms.

Any relationship, business, military, marriage, friendship, needs to have a basis of trust and once that trust has been damaged or destroyed, it's hard work to maintain that relationship. If I was married to somebody and a big part of our relationship was based on X, then I decide that X is wrong and want it out of my life and the life of my spouse and children, do I have the right to demand that they make the change and be happy about it. Do they have the right to demand that I go back to X and be happy about it? Either way, the trust can be damaged or destroyed. Telling my spouse that she has to make those changes is, in a way, my telling her that I don't trust her anymore and I'm demanding her to trust me. In either scenario, it's often all about "me," with "me" being either me or the spouse demanding changes.

One thing a marriage counselor told me is that more often than not, a woman will marry a man and then she'll try to change him to make him better in her eyes, or a man will marry a woman and want her to never change and will often complain when she does. Both are very unrealistic and will only lead to problems. People all change, but usually not in the ways somebody else will want them to change.

[Ms. Jack]

Jack, I am really thrilled that you and your hubby are back together for two reasons. First, the two of you make a really cute couple and secondly, if you did end up divorced, I was going to marry you to show your ex what he was really missing, but that meant you having to be a stepmother to my sons and I really wish that on nobody.

LOL... plus, aren't I like, only 2 years older than them? They would have been like, "Oh great, Dad got one of those mid-life-crisis trophy wives."

His parents may have been on the wrong side of the issue, but there were plenty of people around you who were telling your hubby what a big mistake he was making and what the consequences would be.

Oh I know. The bishop took his temple recommend away over it, a gesture I've never forgotten. In fact I think the only Latter-day Saints who urged him to divorce me were his parents. I don't really have a point, only that if Latter-day Saints can do things wrong, they can certainly do things right.

You're right about trust and variables in a relationship Lynn, which is why I'm usually hesitant to condemn anyone. Divorce is a painful enough experience without strangers on the Internet piling on to tell you that you screwed up more than you already know you did. Since I've been blogging about interfaith marriage though, I get a few people a month leaving comments or e-mailing me to ask for advice or share their own story. An awful lot of people seem willing and able to find happiness in interfaith relationships. With loss of faith being such a similar situation, I dunno... all I can say is that I sincerely wish people would try to make things work first, and leave divorce as a last option.

You're a good man Lynn. There's either something about you I don't know (do you pull the legs off puppies in your spare time?) or a good woman is going to see that someday, so hang in there.

Oh, the other good thing about me and my husband getting back together... if we hadn't, we never would have made this!

[urroner]

Oh, the other good thing about me and my husband getting back together... if we hadn't, we never would have made this!

[jerryp48]

Divorce for a faithful LDS member is extremely difficult. It took me years to finally make the decision.

Hoops is right. I believed then and I believe now that divorce is a transgression.

Although I believe my 3 children from my previous marriage are better off living with me and their step-mother they are the greatest casualties of my divorce. I have the worlds happiest marriage now but they paid the biggest price.

Jerry

[MatthewG]

Of course you do. I would not expect anything else.

But a sensible reading of what I wrote does not warrant his determination.

Had you simply A) admitted you did it on purpose or B ) did it on accident and apologized then I would have dropped this a long time ago, until either happens, you're still a liar.

[Anijen]

Of course you do. I would not expect anything else.

But a sensible reading of what I wrote does not warrant his determination.

So first you dismantle and misquote Matthew G now your saying that I am not a sensible reader.It appears that it is your M.O. to do an ad homonym whenever you disagree with someone.

[Anijen]

Divorce for a faithful LDS member is extremely difficult. It took me years to finally make the decision.

Hoops is right. I believed then and I believe now that divorce is a transgression.

Although I believe my 3 children from my previous marriage are better off living with me and their step-mother they are the greatest casualties of my divorce. I have the worlds happiest marriage now but they paid the biggest price.

Jerry

(emphasis mine)

There are times when a spouse is so abusive to their mate or children and you claim to divorce such a person is a sin? The church frowns on divorce, so do I, but to make a blanket generalization that divorce is sin is an error. The church would never desire for someone to stay in a relationship they could harm/kill the spouse or children.

Sorry just a pet peeve of mine when someone throws out a blanket generalization and parades it as official doctrine. Again not sin to divorce when the situation deems it necessary.

[Garden Girl]

I am 68 years old; to this day, I can see in my mind's eye the night that my dad... my biological father... in a drunken rage, chased my mom with a butcher knife, causing her to grab up my sister and me out of bed and to flee out into the night...I can still feel the cool night air on my face as we ran down our long driveway, around the corner... hear my mom's sobs as she pounded on old widow Harrisburger's door... dear Mrs. Harrisburger taking us in... talking and calming my mother... my mom filed for divorce. Tell me, Hoops, did my mother sin in doing so?

Several years later she met through friends a wonderful man whom she married... he became our "Dad." Then he converted to the Church, and a year later, mom, my sis and I knelt with him in the SLC temple and were sealed as an eternal family. I loved my step-dad and the way he treated us... the goodness of him... he and my mom were married for over 50 years...a good, solid marriage.

I refuse to believe there was any "sin" in my mom's divorce...

Garden Girl

[MatthewG]

I am 68 years old; to this day, I can see in my mind's eye the night that my dad... my biological father... in a drunken rage, chased my mom with a butcher knife, causing her to grab up my sister and me out of bed and to flee out into the night...I can still feel the cool night air on my face as we ran down our long driveway, around the corner... hear my mom's sobs as she pounded on old widow Harrisburger's door... dear Mrs. Harrisburger taking us in... talking and calming my mother... my mom filed for divorce. Tell me, Hoops, did my mother sin in doing so?

Several years later she met through friends a wonderful man whom she married... he became our "Dad." Then he converted to the Church, and a year later, mom, my sis and I knelt with him in the SLC temple and were sealed as an eternal family. I loved my step-dad and the way he treated us... the goodness of him... he and my mom were married for over 50 years...a good, solid marriage.

I refuse to believe there was any "sin" in my mom's divorce...

Garden Girl

Because Hoops doesn't have a clue to what he's talking about concerning divorce.

[Cadizita]

I'm curious, how did you arrive at this interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:11-14? I've heard a lot of different things said and argued about that passage, but this one is new to me. Did an LDS leader teach it, or is it your own pet theory?

I think you have to be careful using happiness as a justification for actions. I'm not saying you in particular were wrong since I wasn't there and I can't know everything that went on with your marriage, but I've had too many friends go against what the Bible taught just because they wanted some temporal happiness. I think God cares more about doing what's right than doing what makes you happy. Doing right usually brings its own kind of joy.

My brother's mission president taught him that. However, I just found this:

Women must never speak, prophesy or speak in tongues in church. One 19th century Bible commentator holds this extreme and minority view that denies the right of women to speak, prophesy or speak in tongues by saying: "This rule is positive, explicit, and universal ... women were to keep silence ... take no part in speaking foreign languages and of prophecy." This commentator's dogmatic statements are totally unjustified and without merit. He disregards Scripture's declaration that women will prophesy (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17-18) and have already done so in the Corinthian church (1 Cor. 11:5). He believed the phrase, "as saith the Law" in 1 Cor. 14:34 was linked to Gen. 3.16 but offered no scriptural evidence in support of his opinion.[2]

Women may pray, prophesy, teach or speak as long as they do so in an orderly manner. J. D. Douglas, editor of the New Commentary on the Whole Bible admits the statement Let your women keep silence in the churches is difficult because Paul had previously spoken about women praying and prophesying in church. He writes that, "Women should not teach or speak in any way that causes disturbance in a church meeting. But we cannot dogmatically say that women did not and could not pray and/or prophesy in church meetings." This commentator suggests that the apostle Paul is concerned about what is proper in the church meetings and rebukes the Corinthians for their pride beginning in verse 36. Additionally, he believes the reference to the "law" refers to Genesis 3.16 but offered no support for his belief.[3 ]

Some married women need to exercise self-control. David Lowery, a professor at Dallas Seminary, acknowledges the difficulty in determining the exact meaning of 1 Cor. 14:34-35. He acknowledges that women did participate in worship services by exercising the gifts of the Spirit. He suggests that Paul wrote these words because "church members needed to exercise self-control," not only in the context of tongues and prophecy but that some women were causing a disturbance. He writes: "Paul then wanted silence on the part of married women whose husbands were present in the assembly, but he permitted the participation of other women when properly adorned (1 Cor. 11:2-16). Such silence would express their subordinate (but not inferior) relationship to their husbands." The real issue, he said, is one of self-control. This commentator makes no attempt to account for the expression just as the Law also says.[4 ]

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/Preato2.htm

I can't remember the rule about links. Oh well. If it's not supposed to be here then do away with it.

Well then call it joy. The fruits of the Spirit are joy, etc. and if there is something that doesn't bring anyone joy either before or after, even during, and will lead to no joy whatsoever, then it's definitely bad.

In response to the title of the thread...

I never loved my husband more than I loved my God. Yes, I loved him, but he always took second place.

[Hoops22]

Had you simply A) admitted you did it on purpose or B ) did it on accident and apologized then I would have dropped this a long time ago, until either happens, you're still a liar.

You still haven't pointed out what the "it" is. I took your words exactly as you wrote them - then commented.

All you've really been able to do is call me a liar, without actually telling me how I did lie.

[Hoops22]

Tell me, Hoops, did my mother sin in doing so?

Divorce is a sin. You can't get around that.

I refuse to believe there was any "sin" in my mom's divorce...

That's up to you. You can believe the bible or not.

Because Hoops doesn't have a clue to what he's talking about concerning divorce.

I've given Biblical support for my position. What have you given? Your feelings?

[Cadizita]

Divorce is a sin. You can't get around that. That's up to you. You can believe the bible or not.I've given Biblical support for my position. What have you given? Your feelings?

You're right... you can't get around divorce being a sin, if assume that there is absolutely no way there was anything lost or mistranslated regarding divorce.

I do believe in the Bible, so far as it is translated correctly.

And how dare you mock someone's feelings! Do you think God has no feelings? What kind of God do you worship that doesn't care whether a women suffers at the hands of her husband or not? A chauvinistic and cruel God? That's not the God I know.

Dallin H. Oaks responded to this question in 2007:

In ancient times and even under tribal laws in some countries where we now have members, men have power to divorce their wives for any trivial thing. Such unrighteous oppression of women was rejected by the Savior, who declared:

â??Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

â??And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adulteryâ? (Matthew 19:8â??9).

The kind of marriage required for exaltationâ??eternal in duration and godlike in qualityâ??does not contemplate divorce. In the temples of the Lord, couples are married for all eternity. But some marriages do not progress toward that ideal. Because â??of the hardness of [our] hearts,â? the Lord does not currently enforce the consequences of the celestial standard. He permits divorced persons to marry again without the stain of immorality specified in the higher law. Unless a divorced member has committed serious transgressions, he or she can become eligible for a temple recommend under the same worthiness standards that apply to other members.[1]

[MatthewG]

You still haven't pointed out what the "it" is. I took your words exactly as you wrote them - then commented.

All you've really been able to do is call me a liar, without actually telling me how I did lie.

You took apart a complete sentence, added to it, to make it appear that I said something other than I did. You know it.

"I don't care what the bible says...."

Is different than:

"I don't care what the bible says concerning divorce".

They have to different meanings and your intent was quiet clear, deceptive, and further denying it YOU sir are a liar.