Mormonism And Grace

[wes]

I'm under no delusion that I've earned God's grace in any way, shape, or form. I just ask him to keep it coming. That may sound greedy but then again, he told me to do it. Then he works through me/I let him change me. God is a nice guy that way. If you tell him to stop with the grace thing he will.

I do works for three reasons off the top of my head:

1. It is easy to imagine one has faith to acquire grace when you don't. James talked about workless faith and it's futility. Whether you want to say the works come about because you're under the effects of the grace of God or you do them to acquire faith to gain access to grace sounds like a good question but I don't think it has an answer. To use an old analogy, it's like asking which side of the scissors does the cutting.

2. Keeps me humble. It is much easier to despise the gifts God gives if they seem of no value. C.S. Lewis once suggested an experiment where you go and try to live a perfect life for several weeks. He said you might think you made it through a few days but if you keep up the program you will discover how absolutely futile it is to try to pull this off through sheer force of will. When you're trying to be perfect you realize you need God's help every second of every day. If you sit back and figure you can achieve perfection one day and not worry about it those satanic whispers come in telling you you could be much, much better on your own and you have no need of God. It's the difference between trying to lift weights that are too heavy for you and idly looking at them figuring you could surely lift those if you 'really tried'.

3. I love God. I want to serve him. If tomorrow I found out that the Evangelicals are right and I'm safe and secure now and God has saved me completely I would rather in my clumsy way do the best I can to serve him and fight in his army against the powers of darkness in the world then be a camp follower and watch from the fringes. Plus he likes it when I try and the approval of God (despite how limited it is due to me being so flawed) is still the kind of thing that makes life worth living. I know to a small degree what drove the faithful of all ages to endure persecution, be eaten by lions, be thrown into fiery pits, and be martyred, all while still praising God. I want more of that and I don't feel arrogance attached to this want. It seems like this desire comes from above and not below.

Christians want to serve God too, but the difference is that they are motivated purely by gratitude for the free gift of salvation they have received.

[LeSellers]

Unmerited means that nothing is required.

I'm trying to find the word "unmerited" in the Bible. So far, no luck.

Since the word is not there, the phrase "unmerited grace" doesn't show up, either.

Is this another one of those unbiblical concepts we keep hearing from the "sola biblia crowd?

Lehi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Someone should have told Jesus.

Perfect!! he didnt get the memo either.

Christians want to serve God too, but the difference is that they are motivated purely by gratitude for the free gift of salvation they have received.

What if they dont serve God? Are they still saved?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Unmerited means that nothing is required.

It is the unmerited favor of God that causes TRUE repentance. What is TRUE repentance? It is a realization of just how sinful we are and a turning to God by believing we have been forgiven.

I have never seen the word unmerited grace in teh Bible. perhaps you can point it out to me. So "true" repentance is just realising that we are sinful and are turning to God. What does this even mean? How do you realise you are a sinner and believe we have been forgiven. What if I keep beating my kids. I can still realise that I am a sinner and I can even believe that I have been forgiven. Buit if I change not my actions that belief is in vain. Do you want to try again.

[Obiwan]

unfortunately, that does not answer the question.

It does answer your question because if you are a "christian" then it makes you a hypocrate or not knowing your own "Bible".

You attack your own faith by attacking us.

[revelation]

wes,

the LDS church that I have belonged to all my life, has NEVER taught that we could earn our way into God's good graces, if what you mean by that is His presence. No amount of works we can do will ever merit anything:

The Lord gave us commandments, and teachings to live by, and if we follow them, He will bless us, and sanctify us - not because our works merit it, but because He said He would.

Mosiah 2:4 "24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

Notice how the verse above speaks about you doing what God commands you and then God pays you.

Now notice below, anyone who works for "pay" recieves wages, not a gift:

Romans 4:4-5 " 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

But the people who are justified are the ones who do not work but instead, they trust God. They are the ones who will be declared righteous

[wes]

Perfect!! he didnt get the memo either.What if they dont serve God? Are they still saved?

If they don't serve God, it would call into question whether or not they ever really were saved to begin with. Does that make sense? Since works are a result of being saved, they naturally spring forth from the person who has received the free gift of salvation because the person is grateful. If you see no evidence in that person's life, I would say it is doubtful that they ever really received the free gift of salvation. You cannot help but be grateful for such a gift which naturally is evidenced by good works.

[revelation]

I'm trying to find the word "unmerited" in the Bible. So far, no luck.

Since the word is not there, the phrase "unmerited grace" doesn't show up, either.

Is this another one of those unbiblical concepts we keep hearing from the "sola biblia crowd?

Lehi

Grace = unmerited favor. Look it up in a dictionary

[LifeOnaPlate]

I never said works were nonexistent. The point I am making is that they come about as a RESULT of being saved. Mormonism teaches that we are required to do everything we possibly can in order to attain salvation (oh, and the cross helps us out too).

Works coming as a result of being said are an attempt to add something to the cross.

[The Nehor]

Christians want to serve God too, but the difference is that they are motivated purely by gratitude for the free gift of salvation they have received.

Unbiblical.

The reason I distance myself from the kind of theology you teach is that it is not the religion Christ taught. He taught people to come unto him and demanded sacrifices from his followers. When the rich man came and asked what he still lacked, the Savior did not tell him to confess Jesus with his mouth and be saved. He told him to sell everything and come follow him. The man went away sorrowing. I believe that Christ loves us all enough that if there was an easier way for that man to be saved he would have given it rather then let him leave sorrowing and conflicted.

This theology comes from Paul in a few of his letters directed to people who already believed in the Jesus Christ and were at least professing Christians. My guess of what happened is some members were downplaying the Savior's role and emphasizing earning your way into heaven. Paul harshly and powerfully rebuked this idea. Almost too powerfully as among many they seem to trump the words of the Savior himself.

[wes]

I have never seen the word unmerited grace in teh Bible. perhaps you can point it out to me. So "true" repentance is just realising that we are sinful and are turning to God. What does this even mean? How do you realise you are a sinner and believe we have been forgiven. What if I keep beating my kids. I can still realise that I am a sinner and I can even believe that I have been forgiven. Buit if I change not my actions that belief is in vain. Do you want to try again.

Grace by definition means unmerited. Look it up in the dictionary if you like. True repentance means turning from sin but again it has to do with a person's motivation. Gratitude is the motivation for Christians. Hoping to earn their way by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel and only being saved "after all we can do" is the motivation for mormons.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If they don't serve God, it would call into question whether or not they ever really were saved to begin with. Does that make sense? Since works are a result of being saved, they naturally spring forth from the person who has received the free gift of salvation because the person is grateful. If you see no evidence in that person's life, I would say it is doubtful that they ever really received the free gift of salvation. You cannot help but be grateful for such a gift which naturally is evidenced by good works.

So then I could say the same about Baptism. If one is truley saved, they will be baptised as an outword symbol of salvation. So that would mean that if you werent babptised then you werent really saved to begin with. That would make the most sense on why Jesus was baptised to show us the way.

Why would Peter tell us that "even now baptism doth save us".

[wes]

Works coming as a result of being said are an attempt to add something to the cross.

How so?

[revelation]

I have never seen the word unmerited grace in teh Bible. perhaps you can point it out to me. So "true" repentance is just realising that we are sinful and are turning to God. What does this even mean? How do you realise you are a sinner and believe we have been forgiven. What if I keep beating my kids. I can still realise that I am a sinner and I can even believe that I have been forgiven. Buit if I change not my actions that belief is in vain. Do you want to try again.

Grace = unmerited favor. Check out a dictionary.

Read the account of King David when his friend led him to Repentance. David had sorrow over his sins and was imediatley assured his sins were forgiven.

The law shows us our sin, the gospel shows us what God has done to save us from our sin. He has forgiven us. If you kept beating your kids, you essentially rejected the forgiveness.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Grace by definition means unmerited. Look it up in the dictionary if you like. True repentance means turning from sin but again it jas to do with a person's motivation. Gratitude is the motivation for Christians. Hoping to earn their way by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel and only being saved "after all we can do" is the motivation for mormons.

So how much do I need to repent to show that I am saved? FYI you can drop the red herring in believeing that the LDs think they can earn thier way to heaven. It is false and no profeesing latter day-saint blieves it.

How so?

In the same way you calim that having works before salvation would add to it. I thought that Jesus did it all and we dont need to do a darn thing. I have been told this by many good hearted baptist.

[wes]

So how much do I need to repent to show that I am saved? FYI you can drop the red herring in believeing that the LDs think they can earn thier way to heaven. It is false and no profeesing latter day-saint blieves it.

It's not a matter of "how much" because you do not need to "show that you're saved." The natural outpouring of a saved person is good works.I am merely quoting LDS scripture and articles of faith regarding the fact that Mormons are required to earn salvation. Are you denying the 3rd article of faith and 2 Nephi 25:23?

In the same way you calim that having works before salvation would add to it. I thought that Jesus did it all and we dont need to do a darn thing. I have been told this by many good hearted baptist.

Again, we don't HAVE to do good works in order to be saved, but they naturally flow out of the life of the saved person because of deep gratitude for the free gift of salvation.

[Flyonthewall]

Mosiah 2:4 "24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

Notice how the verse above speaks about you doing what God commands you and then God pays you.

Now notice below, anyone who works for "pay" recieves wages, not a gift:

Romans 4:4-5 " 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."

But the people who are justified are the ones who do not work but instead, they trust God. They are the ones who will be declared righteous

You misunderstand what this is saying. It is further evidence that our works will not "earn" or "merit" out way into God's presence, because when we do as commanded, He blesses us, which is the reward for keeping His commandments. So we cannot say we are "saved" by our works.

We show our works to justify our faith(faith without works being dead), and we are "saved" by grace through our faith.

[The Nehor]

It's not a matter of "how much" because you do not need to "show that you're saved." The natural outpouring of a saved person is good works.I am merely quoting LDS scripture and articles of faith regarding the fact that Mormons are required to earn salvation. Are you denying the 3rd article of faith and 2 Nephi 25:23?

When the rich man came and asked what he still lacked, the Savior did not tell him to confess Jesus with his mouth and be saved. He told him to sell everything and come follow him. The man went away sorrowing. I believe that Christ loves us all enough that if there was an easier way for that man to be saved he would have given it rather then let him leave sorrowing and conflicted.

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessio Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.-Matthew 19:21-26

I guess the disciples missed how easy it is when they wondered who could possibly be saved. Shame the man to didn't confess himself a sinner and accept salvation. Bigger shame the Savior didn't mention this possibility to him but demanded more.

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it-Matthew 16:24-25

Are you denying the words and works of the Savior himself?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It's not a matter of "how much" because you do not need to "show that you're saved." The natural outpouring of a saved person is good works.I am merely quoting LDS scripture and articles of faith regarding the fact that Mormons are required to earn salvation. Are you denying the 3rd article of faith and 2 Nephi 25:23?Again, we don't HAVE to do good works in order to be saved, but they naturally flow out of the life of the saved person because of deep gratitude for the free gift of salvation.

Accept this is false. Remember James, I know most people that have your view hate the book of James. Faith with out works is dead. SO see you need to have works either becuase you are exersieing your faith, or to show you have been saved. You cant have your cake now and eat it latter. It doesnt work like that.

[revelation]

You misunderstand what this is saying. It is further evidence that our works will not "earn" or "merit" out way into God's presence, because when we do as commanded, He blesses us, which is the reward for keeping His commandments. So we cannot say we are "saved" by our works.

We show our works to justify our faith(faith without works being dead), and we are "saved" by grace through our faith.

According to Mosiah you are indebted to God. According to the Bible you are not indebted to God. Jesus has paid the debt in full. But since you believe you are yet indebted to God, you are earning your way. You reject what Jesus has done for you and in doing so, you reject Jesus

[revelation]

Accept this is false. Remember James, I know most people that have your view hate the book of James. Faith with out works is dead. SO see you need to have works either becuase you are exersieing your faith, or to show you have been saved. You cant have your cake now and eat it latter. It doesnt work like that.

James is one of my favorite books as a WELS Lutheran.

Faith without works is dead.

But works come AFTER we are saved. They don't come in order to be saved.

The works that James speaks of are works that justify us before MEN, not GOD.

[T-Shirt]

According to Mosiah you are indebted to God. According to the Bible you are not indebted to God. Jesus has paid the debt in full. But since you believe you are yet indebted to God, you are earning your way. You reject what Jesus has done for you and in doing so, you reject Jesus

This is nonsense. Your attempt to describe LDS belief is wrong and untruthful, and you know it. It is garbage like this that, unfortunately, gives evangelicals a bad name.

T-Shirt

[Avatar4321]

That's ridiculous. The MAIN IDEA of my entire early childhood focused on Mormonism and the goal was to be perfect. That was one of the main reasons I never liked it because it was impossible. To suggest my memories are "unreliable" is unfair and untrue.

But it is possible. Through Christ all things are possible.

Do you think Our Savior lied to us?

[Avatar4321]

According to your Moroni passage, salvation, grace is conditional? How can I rid myself of all ungodliness when I was born with a sinful nature? It's not possible. It's not my righteousness, it's God's righteousness that cleanses me. He accepts me, because I come to him broken and in need of a savior. Confessing I am a sinner in need of his grace. He saves me and sends me a helper to rid my sinful body of all unrighteousness caused by sin.

By applying the Atonement of Jesus Christ. What's the point of a gift if you don't use it?Why do you think the answer is something other than that when the Book of Mormon is clear in this regard?

What else do you suggest if the definition of grace is UNMERITED favor?

I don't know. Maybe listening to what God has to say rather than presuming to tell God that you won't listen but expect Him to save you.

Because by definition grace is not earned in ANY way."For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through faithâ??and this NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of Godâ?? NOT by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2: 8-9

Yeah. so if your point of view is so correct, why do you have to misrepresent ours?

[Daniel Peterson]

I've never believed that one had to be perfect in order to be saved.

I've never taught that.

I've never heard it taught.

I've never known anybody who was perfect.

I've never known anybody who claimed to be perfect.

I've never known anybody who was claimed by anybody else to be perfect.

Yet I've known quite a number of people who, I think, will be just fine in the hereafter, and I think I'm very far from alone in my judgment of that point.

I'm really, really, really, really, really tired of outsiders telling me what I and my fellow Latter-day Saints teach.

I'm really, really tired of it.