Mormonism And Grace

[Avatar4321]

Repentance is a RESULT of being saved, not a requirment in order to be saved.

Alright, if you say so. Dont repent then if you dont think its a requirement. The rest of us will trust the Lord.

[Avatar4321]

Unmerited means that nothing is required.

It is the unmerited favor of God that causes TRUE repentance. What is TRUE repentance? It is a realization of just how sinful we are and a turning to God by believing we have been forgiven.

You and I must have very different ideas of what "unmerited" means.

You see, I tend to follow what the disctionary says which is "undeserved."

Which is exactly why there is nothing we can do that will put us in a position where we deserve God's grace.

However, there is absolutely nothing in the word unmerited that proscribes God from giving us requirements.

You guys are under the false impression that doing what God requires somehow entitles us to salvation based on our merits. Im not sure where you get this idea. Because no matter what we do, we didn't deserve what Christ did for us. That doesnt allow us to ignore His clear requirements on how to accept His gift.

Sadly I fear I will be talking right past you and you friends because without the Spirit, it's tougher to understand things of the Spirit.

[Avatar4321]

Christians want to serve God too, but the difference is that they are motivated purely by gratitude for the free gift of salvation they have received.

So you want to tell us we are wrong for believing something we dont believe and that you are better than us because you dont believe what we dont believe.

Seems like a total waste of time to me. Reading, listening, understanding with the Spirit is much more productive than telling others you are better than them.

[Avatar4321]

Mosiah 2:4 "24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? Notice how the verse above speaks about you doing what God commands you and then God pays you. Now notice below, anyone who works for "pay" recieves wages, not a gift:Romans 4:4-5 " 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."But the people who are justified are the ones who do not work but instead, they trust God. They are the ones who will be declared righteous

So somehow, you wrest a scripture that clearly says we are indebted to God into an accusation that we believe are entitled to salvation. If that's not dishonest, I don't know what is.Thankfully, despite your claim, I have a kindred in My Savior who disagrees with you.

21

[Avatar4321]

I guess the disciples missed how easy it is when they wondered who could possibly be saved. Shame the man to didn't confess himself a sinner and accept salvation. Bigger shame the Savior didn't mention this possibility to him but demanded more.

Are you denying the words and works of the Savior himself?

Sadly, I think they are. They just don't realize it.

[wes]

Just to clear up a few things that seem to be misunderstood by a few folks on this board...

I do not think I am better than anyone. In fact, I know I am just the opposite. I am a sinner saved by grace, period. I have done nothing to deserve my salvation, nor have I earned it in any fashion.

I never said Mormons believe you have to be perfect to be saved. I did say that I was taught in the Mormon church that the goal of this life was perfection. I also said that Mormons believe the following which I was also taught and which is taken from The Book of Mormon and The 3rd article of faith: in addition to believing in Jesus, one has to do everything he or she can which includes obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Mormon Gospel in order to be saved.

[Avatar4321]

According to Mosiah you are indebted to God. According to the Bible you are not indebted to God. Jesus has paid the debt in full. But since you believe you are yet indebted to God, you are earning your way. You reject what Jesus has done for you and in doing so, you reject Jesus

Where on earth did you get this? You somehow take a passage where it's made clear that we need the Atonement of Jesus Christ because we are indebted to Him and only He can pay for it. Yet somehow that means we are earning are way and reject what Christ has done. Because we teach that we can only be Saved through Christ.Your arguments make no sense. How the heck can a scripture pointing out that no matter what we do we are indebted to God and cannot be saved without the Atonement bring you to the exact opposite conclusion? It just doesn't make any sense.

I've never believed that one had to be perfect in order to be saved.I've never taught that.I've never heard it taught.I've never known anybody who was perfect.I've never known anybody who claimed to be perfect.I've never known anybody who was claimed by anybody else to be perfect.Yet I've known quite a number of people who, I think, will be just fine in the hereafter, and I think I'm very far from alone in my judgment of that point.I'm really, really, really, really, really tired of outsiders telling me what I and my fellow Latter-day Saints teach.I'm really, really tired of it.

Aww come on. You know me:)

[Avatar4321]

Just to clear up a few things that seem to be misunderstood by a few folks on this board...

I do not think I am better than anyone. In fact, I know I am just the opposite. I am a sinner saved by grace, period. I have done nothing to deserve my salvation, nor have I earned it in any fashion.

I never said Mormons believe you have to be perfect to be saved. I did say that I was taught in the Mormon church that the goal of this life was perfection. I also said that Mormons believe the following which I was also taught and which is taken from The Book of Mormon and The 3rd article of faith: in addition to believing in Jesus, one has to do everything he or she can which includes obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Mormon Gospel in order to be saved.

It's in the bible that Christ commands men to be perfect. It's the Bible that Paul teaches men how to become perfect through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Someday you might want to actually read the Book of Mormon. Either that or stop claiming it says something that you know it doesnt. It gets old fast.

[wes]

It's in the bible that Christ commands men to be perfect. It's the Bible that Paul teaches men how to become perfect through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

It's in the Bible that we are saved by GRACE ALONE and NOT by works which is in direct contradiction with the 3rd article of faith and 2 Nephi 25:23.

[revelation]

This is nonsense. Your attempt to describe LDS belief is wrong and untruthful, and you know it. It is garbage like this that, unfortunately, gives evangelicals a bad name.

T-Shirt

I would never describe LDS beliefs wrong or untruthfully intentionally. I have no desire to do that. But I am not certain that it is me who is misunderstanding something here. I do suspect it is you misunderstanding our theology on what it means to earn your way to heaven.

In our theology, any "condition" to salvation is earning your way. Whether in part or completely. makes no difference.

The fact that your salvation rests on you meeting those conditions means that you make the difference as to whether or not you are saved.

[revelation]

You guys are under the false impression that doing what God requires somehow entitles us to salvation based on our merits. Im not sure where you get this idea. Because no matter what we do, we didn't deserve what Christ did for us.

I understand this. But how do we get the impression? Here it is:

That doesnt allow us to ignore His clear requirements on how to accept His gift.

If there are requirements to get the gift then it isn't a gift, it's a purchase. If it's a purchase, you have earned it. But gifts are free. How many requirements are there to get birthday and Christmas gifts from your freinds? The answer is none. That is because they are gifts. If there were requirements, it would no longer be a gift.

[revelation]

Sadly, I think they are. They just don't realize it.

How are we denying the works of the Savior himself?

[revelation]

Where on earth did you get this? You somehow take a passage where it's made clear that we need the Atonement of Jesus Christ because we are indebted to Him and only He can pay for it. Yet somehow that means we are earning are way and reject what Christ has done. Because we teach that we can only be Saved through Christ.Your arguments make no sense. How the heck can a scripture pointing out that no matter what we do we are indebted to God and cannot be saved without the Atonement bring you to the exact opposite conclusion? It just doesn't make any sense.Aww come on. You know me:)

I realize that you believe your indebted to him and that you believe he paid for it. But now you have to pay him back. The LDS teaches that Jesus is our creditor. What does a creditor do? They give you a loan and spread out the payments. You have to pay him back. If you have to pay him back, you are buying your own salvation back from Jesus:

"The mediator turned then to the debtor. â??If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?â??

â?? â??Oh yes, yes,â?? cried the debtor. â??You saved me from prison and show mercy to me.â??

â?? â??Then,â?? said the benefactor, â??you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.â?? " (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, pp. 79â??80; or Ensign, May 1977, pp. 54â??55).

Jesus isn't a creditor. He didn't give us a loan and spread out the payments. He paid the debt in full and set us free. It is a gift.

[revelation]

It's in the bible that Christ commands men to be perfect. It's the Bible that Paul teaches men how to become perfect through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Someday you might want to actually read the Book of Mormon. Either that or stop claiming it says something that you know it doesnt. It gets old fast.

The Bible doesn't command men to BECOME perfect, the Bible commands men to BE perfect. Paul doesn't teach men how to become perfect through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Paul teaches that men have already been made perfect through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Paul then teaches that since we have been made perfect forever through the atonement of Jesus Christ, let us now BECOME that which Jesus has already accomplished for us in our behalf.

[zerinus]

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."According to the above passage from Moroni Chapter 10 Verse 32 the only people who receive the grace of Christ are those who meet the following conditions:1) denial of ALL ungodliness2) loving God with ALL might, mind, and strengthIf this is true, how is it possible for anyone to receive grace?

That is not much different from what Peter and James teach in the Bible:

James 4

:

6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but

giveth grace unto the humble

.

7

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil

, and he will flee from you.

8

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners;

and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1 Peter 5

:

5 . . . Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and

giveth grace to the humble

.

6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

Grace is not completely unmerited. Humility, a penitant attitude, and a contrite spirit are preconditions.

What else do you suggest if the definition of grace is UNMERITED favor?

That is not the definition of grace; see my previous post.

zerinus

[pcarthew]

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

According to the above passage from Moroni Chapter 10 Verse 32 the only people who receive the grace of Christ are those who meet the following conditions:

1) denial of ALL ungodliness

2) loving God with ALL might, mind, and strength

If this is true, how is it possible for anyone to receive grace?

It really doesn't matter Wes cause you don't believe the Book of Mormon to be true.

[zerinus]

Because by definition grace is not earned in ANY way.

"For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through faithâ??and this NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of Godâ?? NOT by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2: 8-9

You are ignoring the context. He was referring to the Law of Moses. He was saying to those who thought the application of the Law of Moses was sufficient to save them, without the faith of Christ (or by rejecting Him), were wrong. That alone will not save them, if they rejected Jesus Christ.

zerinus

[pcarthew]

Just to clear up a few things that seem to be misunderstood by a few folks on this board...

I do not think I am better than anyone. In fact, I know I am just the opposite. I am a sinner saved by grace, period. I have done nothing to deserve my salvation, nor have I earned it in any fashion.

I never said Mormons believe you have to be perfect to be saved. I did say that I was taught in the Mormon church that the goal of this life was perfection. I also said that Mormons believe the following which I was also taught and which is taken from The Book of Mormon and The 3rd article of faith: in addition to believing in Jesus, one has to do everything he or she can which includes obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Mormon Gospel in order to be saved.

Wes, I would recommend that you read James Chapter 2....please pay attention to verses 17-26...if you can explain (rationalize) that for me I would be very grateful, you might find you salvation is not with out works.

[zerinus]

Repentance is a RESULT of being saved, not a requirment in order to be saved.

Repentance is a requirement to be saved. All the Bible teaches that repentance requirement to being saved. Repentance follows faith. Then comes baptism. Then comes being saved.

zerinus

[LifeOnaPlate]

James 2, Wes.

[Lightbearer]

Repentance is a RESULT of being saved, not a requirment in order to be saved.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. If repentance is a result of being saved (and not a requirement) then why did John the Baptist teach the following:

(Matthew 3: 7-12) "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Looks like a requirement for salvation to me. Of course this was before Christ was crucified, however note the following which Peter taught:

(Acts 2:36-42) "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostlesâ?? doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

Note that "what shall we do?" He did not say "I see you are saved now because your heart was touched and you have faith is Christ... he explained what more was required to "save yourselves from this untoward generation." To repent means to change... we must all have a "mighty change of heart" and we must endure to the end or we cannot be saved. Now as for Paul's explanation that this gift of salvation is not of ourselves but free from God by His grace to those who will follow Him I refer to the Book of Mormon:

(Mosiah 4:10-30) "And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them, and humble yourselves before God; and ask in sincerity of heart that he would forgive you; and now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them. And again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of his goodness and have tasted of his love, and have received a remission of your sins, which causeth such exceedingly great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come, which was spoken by the mouth of the angel. And behold, I say unto you that if ye do this ye shall always rejoice, and be filled with the love of God, and always retain a remission of your sins; and ye shall grow in the knowledge of the glory of him that created you, or in the knowledge of that which is just and true. And ye will not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably, and to render to every man according to that which is his due. And ye will not suffer your children that they go hungry, or naked; neither will ye suffer that they transgress the laws of God, and fight and quarrel one with another, and serve the devil, who is the master of sin, or who is the evil spirit which hath been spoken of by our fathers, he being an enemy to all righteousness. But ye will teach them to walk in the ways of truth and soberness; ye will teach them to love one another, and to serve one another. And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish. Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are justâ?? But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God. For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind? And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy. And now, if God, who has created you, on whom you are dependent for your lives and for all that ye have and are, doth grant unto you whatsoever ye ask that is right, in faith, believing that ye shall receive, O then, how ye ought to impart of the substance that ye have one to another. And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done. I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world. And again, I say unto the poor, ye who have not and yet have sufficient, that ye remain from day to day; I mean all you who deny the beggar, because ye have not; I would that ye say in your hearts that: I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give. And now, if ye say this in your hearts ye remain guiltless, otherwise ye are condemned; and your condemnation is just for ye covet that which ye have not received. And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto youâ??that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before Godâ??I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants. And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order. And I would that ye should remember, that whosoever among you borroweth of his neighbor should return the thing that he borroweth, according as he doth agree, or else thou shalt commit sin; and perhaps thou shalt cause thy neighbor to commit sin also. And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them. But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God, and continue in the faith of what ye have heard concerning the coming of our Lord, even unto the end of your lives, ye must perish. And now, O man, remember, and perish not."

These words are the words of planeness and it is unmistakable what is being said. God does not give us His grace as an excuse not to be holy, but He gives us His grace so we CAN be holy. That is what all the scriptures mean, the apostle Paul would be horrified to know that people were using his words to deny the need for righteous enduring in faith to the end. To deny that we must follow Christ in order to "put on Christ" is unthinkable, the very nature of "putting on Christ" means that we must follow His example, and His grace is sufficient it we put our trust in Him. That is the reason we are given the spirit, to help us to endure to the end. I am likewise sick of people who try to pretend that we are somehow trying "buying grace" or denying the grace of God because we teach that Christ requires us to strive to keep His commandments (however imperfectly we do). The Church is for the "perfecting of the Saints" not for the "perfect Saints" so we are all a work in progress. The following should help dispel the idea that we Mormons believe we can "buy salvation by keeping the commandments":

(Mosiah 2:20-25) "I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with anotherâ?? I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to anotherâ??I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you. And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you."

So you see, keeping the commandments, while a requirement is not the "cause" or "author" of our salvation according to the Book of Mormon. This idea all stems from the very definition of the type of being that mankind is... those who espouse the concept of salvation from mere belief in Christ, (with no regard for righteous living) consider mankind evil to the very core, damned at birth. Cursed creatures that were created by a God that could not foresee that His creations were not capable of righteousness yet He commanded them to be righteous anyway and damns those who do not accept His free "get out of hell" card and yet does not require those who are "saved" to be holy as He is holy. I prefer the LDS view that we are the children of God endowed with a God given agency and are placed in this sinful world to test us and try us and prove that we can keep His commandments and overcome sin by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and enduring faithfully to the end. We are on this earth to learn to choose the good over the evil, we are redeemed from the effects of the fall by the atonement of Jesus Christ the only perfect being to live on this earth. We have been given the challenge to repent and through this process get on the strait and narrow path that leads to salvation in the Celestial Kingdom.

[LeSellers]

Grace = unmerited favor. Look it up in a dictionary

Does the dictionary come before or after Leviticus?

Lehi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

How are we denying the works of the Savior himself?

Not every one that says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of my Father but he that Doeth the will of my Father.

Notice it doesnt say he that believth the will of my Father. The key word is do. By doing we exersie faith and then that allows us to lay claim to Gods good Grace. Faith with out works is dead. Faith is one alive by works. There is no way around this.

[sean0scott]

I never said works were nonexistent. The point I am making is that they come about as a RESULT of being saved. Mormonism teaches that we are required to do everything we possibly can in order to attain salvation (oh, and the cross helps us out too).

Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

[T-Shirt]

I would never describe LDS beliefs wrong or untruthfully intentionally. I have no desire to do that. But I am not certain that it is me who is misunderstanding something here. I do suspect it is you misunderstanding our theology on what it means to earn your way to heaven.

In our theology, any "condition" to salvation is earning your way. Whether in part or completely. makes no difference.

The fact that your salvation rests on you meeting those conditions means that you make the difference as to whether or not you are saved.

Okay,this is a good point and seems to be the crux of the issue. I understand where you are coming from and I respect your belief, but you still seem to be misunderstanding the LDS perspective. LDS do not believe that we can earn or deserve our salvation. Before I get more into this, let me ask you a question, do you believe that Christ requires anything of you?

Best,

T-Shirt