Mormonism And Grace

[wes]

Mine too. I'm closer then I used to be but Christ and I still have a lot of work to do on this.....mostly him....

Good luck....according to Moroni 10:23 you will not receive grace until you have rid yourself of ALL ungodliness.

[mpschmitt]

Good luck....according to Moroni 10:23 you will not receive grace until you have rid yourself of ALL ungodliness.

My experience has been that Jesus does not wait until we've cleaned up our entire mess to step in and provide grace. Once we determine to rid ourselves of ungodliness and begin down the path, His grace immediately begins working in our lives helping us along. We become partners with Christ and He starts making more of our lives than we could ever make of them alone. Some time later (as this scripture teaches) his grace is sufficient for us, that we are made perfect in Christ. We are then (and only then) sanctified fully and made pure, holy, and without spot. Just as Jesus "increased in wisdom and stature with God and man" (Luke 2: 52) so we too, if we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior and the pilot of our lives, can be led to greater wisdom and stature with God and man. The main difference of course being that we are sinful, but Jesus had no need of repentance, being free from sin.

[The Nehor]

Good luck....according to Moroni 10:23 you will not receive grace until you have rid yourself of ALL ungodliness.

And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me. (Moroni 10:23)

I'll assume you meant 10:32.

Let's see the procedure:

1. Come unto Christ (done, and working on improving)

2. Be perfected in him (work in progress)

3. Deny yourself all ungodliness (work in progress)

4. Love God with all your heart, might, mind, and strength (trying)

then his grace is sufficient. Sufficient for what? The verse tells us.

1. Be made perfect in Christ.

So, based on this verse you are suggesting I can't experience any of the grace of God until I complete all four steps when what the verse says is that when I've completed all four steps then the grace will be sufficient to make me truly perfect? I agree that I can't experience the level of grace I need to be perfect right now. If I were at that point I wouldn't still be a mortal. However, there is no prohibition against the grace I get in daily dollops now to help me develop Faith, Hope, and Charity so that Christ can work his mojo and move me a few steps forward.

[greatgandy]

Good luck....according to Moroni 10:23 you will not receive grace until you have rid yourself of ALL ungodliness.

According to your Moroni passage, salvation, grace is conditional? How can I rid myself of all ungodliness when I was born with a sinful nature? It's not possible. It's not my righteousness, it's God's righteousness that cleanses me. He accepts me, because I come to him broken and in need of a savior. Confessing I am a sinner in need of his grace. He saves me and sends me a helper to rid my sinful body of all unrighteousness caused by sin.

[revelation]

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

According to the above passage from Moroni Chapter 10 Verse 32 the only people who receive the grace of Christ are those who meet the following conditions:

1) denial of ALL ungodliness

2) loving God with ALL might, mind, and strength

If this is true, how is it possible for anyone to receive grace?

The Bible teaches that the grace of Christ has already made you perfect apart from anything you do.

Hebrews 10:14 "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

[wes]

According to your Moroni passage, salvation, grace is conditional? How can I rid myself of all ungodliness when I was born with a sinful nature? It's not possible. It's not my righteousness, it's God's righteousness that cleanses me. He accepts me, because I come to him broken and in need of a savior. Confessing I am a sinner in need of his grace. He saves me and sends me a helper to rid my sinful body of all unrighteousness caused by sin.

But that's not enough according to Mormonism..."For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." 2 Nephi 25:23The "after all we can do" portion negates the very grace that was just spoken of.

The Bible teaches that the grace of Christ has already made you perfect apart from anything you do. Hebrews 10:14 "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

I agree. That's one of the reasons the Moroni passage makes no sense.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

But that's not enough according to Mormonism..."For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." 2 Nephi 25:23The "after all we can do" portion negates the very grace that was just spoken of.I agree. That's one of the reasons the Moroni passage makes no sense.

You win. Ill just confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord then I can be saved, right?

As others have pointed out the passages your cited at thes first are the end result. No were does it say you cant have grace until you have denied yourself. I see this verse telling us that it is grace that allows us to deny our selves of all ungodliness that we may be perfect.

I like going round and round on the marry go round. How about you?

Are we saved my works or faith? Or is it a combination of them all?

[wes]

You win. Ill just confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord then I can be saved, right?

What else do you suggest if the definition of grace is UNMERITED favor?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Regardless of whether I ever believed JS to be a prophet or that the BOM was true has no bearing on the reliability of my memories.You misunderstood me. What I was trying to communicate was the fact that Mormonism was at the center of our family and everything we did revolved around it. Perfection was regularly taught to us as a goal.

Perfection through Christ and never apart from Christ.

[The Nehor]

But that's not enough according to Mormonism...For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2 Nephi 25:23The "after all we can do" portion negates the very grace that was just spoken of.

How?If 'all we can do' was enough I would agree that it would negate the need for grace but 'all we can do' is NOT enough. The Book of Mormon teaches this from cover to cover. 'All I can do' is do the best I can and leave the rest to God.My daily religious schedule:1. Pray for the strength to do God's will.2. Get out of bed and fail on every count (though hopefully by a little less then yesterday).3. Read scriptures to gain spiritual insight.4. Present the day to God in prayer, hand over all my sins to Christ, go on my way rejoicing that I'm free of the crippling sin and guilt I would otherwise face, and sleep the sleep of the just (not because I am just but because I'm justified)5. Rinse and Repeat until the day I'm full of grace and truth like the Savior (forecast for tomorrow: not likely).

What else do you suggest if the definition of grace is UNMERITED favor?

I confess that regularly and often. Woo-hoo! Thanks God. High five for the Atonement!!!!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What else do you suggest if the definition of grace is UNMERITED favor?

I suggest that sometimes things are required even to get an unmerrited favor? How do you suggest you trun your life over to Christ if you repent not of your sins? It is impossible. If you truley believe that Jesus is the Christ you will stop smoking dope. Other wise I cant possible see how you have repented.

[wes]

How?

If 'all we can do' was enough I would agree that it would negate the need for grace but 'all we can do' is NOT enough. The Book of Mormon teaches this from cover to cover. 'All I can do' is do the best I can and leave the rest to God.

My daily religious schedule:

1. Pray for the strength to do God's will.

2. Get out of bed and fail on every count (though hopefully by a little less then yesterday).

3. Read scriptures to gain spiritual insight.

4. Present the day to God in prayer, hand over all my sins to Christ, go on my way rejoicing that I'm free of the crippling sin and guilt I would otherwise face, and sleep the sleep of the just (not because I am just but because I'm justified)

5. Rinse and Repeat until the day I'm full of grace and truth like the Savior (forecast for tomorrow: not likely).

Because by definition grace is not earned in ANY way.

"For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through faithâ??and this NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of Godâ?? NOT by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2: 8-9

[Earl]

I understand that the Greek word used in Matthew and translated into English as "perfect" is better rendered in English as complete, whole, or mature. Not piousness.

Getting back to the first topic. Moroni does not include a "line upon line" qualifier, it is a very high standard. No one in our HP Group feels at all comfortable whether they are even close to the standard set in Moroni. And, we have some very pious brethren. Sure, spiritual modesty is at play here.

I think that LDS theology has clearly moved to where we must earn or qualify for grace. We must merit "unmerited favor". It is fine for the church to interpret the scriptures as a whole and set the bar as high as it wishes. But, the very practical and real side effect is that hope flies out the window.

Earl

[wes]

I suggest that sometimes things are required even to get an unmerrited favor? How do you suggest you trun your life over to Christ if you repent not of your sins? It is impossible. If you truley believe that Jesus is the Christ you will stop smoking dope. Other wise I cant possible see how you have repented.

Repentance is a RESULT of being saved, not a requirment in order to be saved.

[wes]

I understand that the Greek word used in Matthew and translated into English as "perfect" is better rendered in English as complete, whole, or mature. Not piousness.

Getting back to the first topic. Moroni does not include a "line upon line" qualifier, it is a very high standard. No one in our HP Group feels at all comfortable whether they are even close to the standard set in Moroni. And, we have some very pious brethren. Sure, spiritual modesty is at play here.

I think that LDS theology has clearly moved to where we must earn or qualify for grace. We must merit "unmerited favor". It is fine for the church to interpret the scriptures as a whole and set the bar as high as it wishes. But, the very practical and real side effect is that hope flies out the window.

Earl

I completely agree. Being taught that I had to earn my way into God's good graces was extremely discouraging and left me feeling very hopeless most of the time. Of course, there's also the possibility of the person who is so blinded to their own faults that they actually think they are meeting the standard. The result of that is equally unpleasant.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Repentance is a RESULT of being saved, not a requirment in order to be saved.

Oh so I only need to do it once. Can you give me a verse in the bible that tells me that reprentance is a one time deal.

[wes]

Oh so I only need to do it once. Can you give me a verse in the bible that tells me that reprentance is a one time deal.

I never said it was a one time deal. The ongoing process of repentance is the result of being saved by grace.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I completely agree. Being taught that I had to earn my way into God's good graces was extremely discouraging and left me feeling very hopeless most of the time. Of course, there's also the possibility of the person who is so blinded to their own faults that they actually think they are meeting the standard. The result of that is equally unpleasant.

Aww but the faith with out works is dead maybe that rings a bell. Seems we are doomed to hell with out works. I have read no were in the bible that our good works are a result of salvation. Sorry go fish.Is this evangelical night or something?

I never said it was a one time deal. The ongoing process of repentance is the result of being saved by grace.

So what is repentance? I believe it to be an on going process too. Wouldnt this make being "saved" an on going process too.

[The Nehor]

Because by definition grace is not earned in ANY way.

"For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through faithâ??and this NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the GIFT of Godâ?? NOT by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2: 8-9

I'm under no delusion that I've earned God's grace in any way, shape, or form. I just ask him to keep it coming. That may sound greedy but then again, he told me to do it. Then he works through me/I let him change me. God is a nice guy that way. If you tell him to stop with the grace thing he will.

I do works for three reasons off the top of my head:

1. It is easy to imagine one has faith to acquire grace when you don't. James talked about workless faith and it's futility. Whether you want to say the works come about because you're under the effects of the grace of God or you do them to acquire faith to gain access to grace sounds like a good question but I don't think it has an answer. To use an old analogy, it's like asking which side of the scissors does the cutting.

2. Keeps me humble. It is much easier to despise the gifts God gives if they seem of no value. C.S. Lewis once suggested an experiment where you go and try to live a perfect life for several weeks. He said you might think you made it through a few days but if you keep up the program you will discover how absolutely futile it is to try to pull this off through sheer force of will. When you're trying to be perfect you realize you need God's help every second of every day. If you sit back and figure you can achieve perfection one day and not worry about it those satanic whispers come in telling you you could be much, much better on your own and you have no need of God. It's the difference between trying to lift weights that are too heavy for you and idly looking at them figuring you could surely lift those if you 'really tried'.

3. I love God. I want to serve him. If tomorrow I found out that the Evangelicals are right and I'm safe and secure now and God has saved me completely I would rather in my clumsy way do the best I can to serve him and fight in his army against the powers of darkness in the world then be a camp follower and watch from the fringes. Plus he likes it when I try and the approval of God (despite how limited it is due to me being so flawed) is still the kind of thing that makes life worth living. I know to a small degree what drove the faithful of all ages to endure persecution, be eaten by lions, be thrown into fiery pits, and be martyred, all while still praising God. I want more of that and I don't feel arrogance attached to this want. It seems like this desire comes from above and not below.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Repentance is a RESULT of being saved, not a requirment in order to be saved.

Someone should have told Jesus.

[revelation]

I suggest that sometimes things are required even to get an unmerrited favor? How do you suggest you trun your life over to Christ if you repent not of your sins? It is impossible. If you truley believe that Jesus is the Christ you will stop smoking dope. Other wise I cant possible see how you have repented.

Unmerited means that nothing is required.

It is the unmerited favor of God that causes TRUE repentance. What is TRUE repentance? It is a realization of just how sinful we are and a turning to God by believing we have been forgiven.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I never said it was a one time deal. The ongoing process of repentance is the result of being saved by grace.

Sounds a little too much like works to me.

[wes]

Sounds a little too much like works to me.

I never said works were nonexistent. The point I am making is that they come about as a RESULT of being saved. Mormonism teaches that we are required to do everything we possibly can in order to attain salvation (oh, and the cross helps us out too).

[The Nehor]

I think that LDS theology has clearly moved to where we must earn or qualify for grace. We must merit "unmerited favor". It is fine for the church to interpret the scriptures as a whole and set the bar as high as it wishes. But, the very practical and real side effect is that hope flies out the window.

I see it differently. We have to want "unmerited favor". I would suggest as kindly as possible that those LDS who can't find hope spend less time trying 'meet a standard' and more time getting to know the Master they claim to serve. The Hope I find in Christ comes from getting to know him. I don't find him to be a harsh taskmaster setting ridiculous standards and then grudgingly forgiving to let me try and fail. Instead I find him to be a companion who clears away the rough patches, helps me with the difficult bits and far from giving up on me instead exhorts me not to give up on him. He has enough power to take me the whole way. Knowing me, that seems impossible. The more I come to know him the more I develop Hope that it IS possible.

[Flyonthewall]

I completely agree. Being taught that I had to earn my way into God's good graces was extremely discouraging and left me feeling very hopeless most of the time. Of course, there's also the possibility of the person who is so blinded to their own faults that they actually think they are meeting the standard. The result of that is equally unpleasant.

wes,

the LDS church that I have belonged to all my life, has NEVER taught that we could earn our way into God's good graces, if what you mean by that is His presence. No amount of works we can do will ever merit anything:

Mosiah 2

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the thanks and praise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and preserved you, and has caused that ye should rejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with anotherâ??

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to anotherâ??I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were created of the dust of the earth; but behold, it belongeth to him who created you.

The Lord gave us commandments, and teachings to live by, and if we follow them, He will bless us, and sanctify us - not because our works merit it, but because He said He would.