Mormonism And Grace

[wes]

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

According to the above passage from Moroni Chapter 10 Verse 32 the only people who receive the grace of Christ are those who meet the following conditions:

1) denial of ALL ungodliness

2) loving God with ALL might, mind, and strength

If this is true, how is it possible for anyone to receive grace?

[oats]

You've set the bar high for yourself, wes. Don't disappoint me.

[Duncan]

Watch this talk by Elder Gerald N. Lundhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnMOHgpHcLEPart 2 is that site also.Watch this talk by Elder Gerald N. Lundhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnMOHgpHcLEPart 2 is that site also.sorry double post!

[Flyonthewall]

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

According to the above passage from Moroni Chapter 10 Verse 32 the only people who receive the grace of Christ are those who meet the following conditions:

1) denial of ALL ungodliness

2) loving God with ALL might, mind, and strength

If this is true, how is it possible for anyone to receive grace?

I hear you saying that it is impossible to do those two things.

If you don't like those, try this:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

[wes]

I hear you saying that it is impossible to do those two things.

If you don't like those, try this:

unfortunately, that does not answer the question.

[The Nehor]

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

According to the above passage from Moroni Chapter 10 Verse 32 the only people who receive the grace of Christ are those who meet the following conditions:

1) denial of ALL ungodliness

2) loving God with ALL might, mind, and strength

If this is true, how is it possible for anyone to receive grace?

Through the grace of God working within us.

[Flyonthewall]

unfortunately, that does not answer the question.

My take:

The Lord will only teach us how to be a superlative. He will never teach nor command us to be or do, less than perfection.

As the verse states: "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ"

In this way we can recieve a fulness of grace to become perfected in Christ.

LDS never teach nor mandate perfection in this mortal lifetime, but is achieved line upon line and precept upon precept. Our learning and spiritual growth is not limited to this lifetime, but progresses eternally.

This is a concept that many non-LDS just don't seem to "get".

[Mudcat]

Through the grace of God working within us.

Are you sure your not an Evangelical?

[The Nehor]

Are you sure your not an Evangelical?

Nope, true blue Mormon who believes the Book of Mormon and the Bible when they talk about grace thus preventing the depressed Mormon syndrome that hits some LDS when they realize they're not measuring up. You keep trying and don't worry about it knowing God did the hard stuff already. The key is to keep yourself in the position where he can continue the process.

[wes]

My take:

The Lord will only teach us how to be a superlative. He will never teach nor command us to be or do, less than perfection.

As the verse states: "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ"

In this way we can recieve a fulness of grace to become perfected in Christ.

LDS never teach nor mandate perfection in this mortal lifetime, but is achieved line upon line and precept upon precept. Our learning and spiritual growth is not limited to this lifetime, but progresses eternally.

This is a concept that many non-LDS just don't seem to "get".

As someone who was born and raised in a devout Mormon family, I was taught that perfection was my goal and that it was attainable if I just tried hard enough.

[The Nehor]

As someone who was born and raised in a devout Mormon family, I was taught that perfection was my goal and that it was attainable if I just tried hard enough.

Your devout Mormon family needed a better grasp of LDS theology. Suggest they read their Book of Mormon a little more.

It is attainable but not independent of God and the process won't be finished until Satan can no longer influence you (i.e. you're dead or translated).

[wes]

Your devout Mormon family needed a better grasp of LDS theology. Suggest they read their Book of Mormon a little more.

It is attainable but not independent of God and the process won't be finished until Satan can no longer influence you (i.e. you're dead or translated).

I was taught this in Sunday School and Sacrament. Are you saying my entire Ward was misinformed?

[ERayR]

Are you sure your not an Evangelical?

Quite sure and while your at it try this

Mosiah 2:21

"I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to anotherâ??I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants."

[The Nehor]

I was taught this in Sunday School and Sacrament. Are you saying my entire Ward was misinformed?

Possible.....or you remember only the hard bits of the Gospel and didn't take in the rest. Until I was 5 I thought the Tabernacle Organ was the Gospel (since it was on the hymnbooks) and thought it was an object of worship despite no one ever teaching it.

[wes]

Possible.....or you remember only the hard bits of the Gospel and didn't take in the rest. Until I was 5 I thought the Tabernacle Organ was the Gospel (since it was on the hymnbooks) and thought it was an object of worship despite no one ever teaching it.

Spencer Kimball seems to have a different theology:

â??Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goalâ?? (Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

[Flyonthewall]

As someone who was born and raised in a devout Mormon family, I was taught that perfection was my goal and that it was attainable if I just tried hard enough.

As we progress through this mortal lifetime we will learn and come to understand many concepts of the gospel, and as we follow its teachings, the spirit of the Lord/grace will grow within us to help strengthen our testimony and efforts to live a more "Christ-like" life. Perfection like unto our Father in Heaven will never be achieved during our mortal life, and not without the Lord's help.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I was taught this in Sunday School and Sacrament. Are you saying my entire Ward was misinformed?

Wes, having spoken with you, I have the impression that your views of what Mormonism teaches have much more to do with your retroactive attempts to understand your former faith from a born-again Christian perspective, rather than specific memories from your upbringing. You told me you quit going to church at apx. age 13, and that before that you were never interested in Mormonism and never liked it. I don't really view your current memories of what your ward and sunday school taught as very reliable given your explanation of your history.

[The Nehor]

Spencer Kimball seems to have a different theology:

â??Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goalâ?? (Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

No, I'm pretty sure President Kimball agrees with me in that without the grace of Jesus Christ it is in fact not attainable:

â??We have a hope in Christ here and now. He died for our sins. Because of Him and His gospel, our sins are washed away in the waters of baptism; sin and iniquity are burned out of our souls as though by fire; and we become clean, we have a clear conscience, and we gain that peace which passeth understanding.â?

â??We believe, and it is our testimony, and we proclaim it to the world, 'that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.' (Mosiah 3:17.)â?

â??We know, and it is our testimony, and we proclaim it to the world, that to be saved men must 'believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.' (Mosiah 3:18.)â?

â??'And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.' (2 Ne. 25:26.)â?

â??For the past century and a half since the Restoration, beginning with the Prophet Joseph Smith, the latter-day prophets of God have raised their voices in clarity and with authority and truth as they have borne their testimonies of the divinity of this great latter-day work and the redemptive power of the gospel of Jesus Christ.â?

â??To the testimonies of these mighty men I add my testimony. I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that He was crucified for the sins of the world. He is my friend, my Savior, my Lord and my God. With all my heart I pray that the Saints may keep His commandments, have His Spirit to be with them, and gain an eternal inheritance with Him in celestial glory.â?

( â??The Lord Expects Righteousness,â? Ensign, Nov. 1982, 6. )

[LifeOnaPlate]

Spencer Kimball seems to have a different theology:

â??Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goalâ?? (Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).

That is correct. Perfection through Christ. Matt 5:48. That is what Pres. Kimball was referring to.

[wes]

Wes, having spoken with you, I have the impression that your views of what Mormonism teaches have much more to do with your retroactive attempts to understand your former faith from a born-again Christian perspective, rather than specific memories from your upbringing. You told me you quit going to church at apx. age 13, and that before that you were never interested in Mormonism and never liked it. I don't really view your current memories of what your ward and sunday school taught as very reliable given your explanation of your history.

That's ridiculous. The MAIN IDEA of my entire early childhood focused on Mormonism and the goal was to be perfect. That was one of the main reasons I never liked it because it was impossible. To suggest my memories are "unreliable" is unfair and untrue.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Possible.....or you remember only the hard bits of the Gospel and didn't take in the rest. Until I was 5 I thought the Tabernacle Organ was the Gospel (since it was on the hymnbooks) and thought it was an object of worship despite no one ever teaching it.

Wes's memories of Mormonism do not portend any serious investigation until he had left the Church, and at that point it was through Ann E. W. Y.'s 19th Wife screed by which she made her money in the late 1800s. At no point, from what I understand, and he can correct me if I am wrong, did wes believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet or that the Book of Mormon is an actual history.

[The Nehor]

That's ridiculous. The MAIN IDEA of my entire early childhood focused on Mormonism and the goal was to be perfect. That was one of the main reasons I never liked it because it was impossible. To suggest my memories are "unreliable" is unfair and untrue.

Really? You must have been exceptionally devout. I know that before 13 my MAIN IDEA was to make friends at school, get acceptable grades, play war on the hill at the end of the road, learn to water-ski, get a new Nintendo game, and squeeze as much fun out of life as I could.

[mpschmitt]

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

According to the above passage from Moroni Chapter 10 Verse 32 the only people who receive the grace of Christ are those who meet the following conditions:

1) denial of ALL ungodliness

2) loving God with ALL might, mind, and strength

If this is true, how is it possible for anyone to receive grace?

Phillipians 4:13:

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

I believe this was not hyperbole, but sincere expression of faith. Paul truly meant all things. And he also intended this statement to convey that it was only through Christ that it is accomplished.

"Whom the Lord calls, he also qualifies"

[wes]

Wes's memories of Mormonism do not portend any serious investigation until he had left the Church, and at that point it was through Ann E. W. Y.'s 19th Wife screed by which she made her money in the late 1800s. At no point, from what I understand, and he can correct me if I am wrong, did wes believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet or that the Book of Mormon is an actual history.

Regardless of whether I ever believed JS to be a prophet or that the BOM was true has no bearing on the reliability of my memories.

Really? You must have been exceptionally devout. I know that before 13 my MAIN IDEA was to make friends at school, get acceptable grades, play war on the hill at the end of the road, learn to water-ski, get a new Nintendo game, and squeeze as much fun out of life as I could.

You misunderstood me. What I was trying to communicate was the fact that Mormonism was at the center of our family and everything we did revolved around it. Perfection was regularly taught to us as a goal.

[The Nehor]

What I was trying to communicate was the fact that Mormonism was at the center of our family and everything we did revolved around it. Perfection was regularly taught to us as a goal.

Mine too. I'm closer then I used to be but Christ and I still have a lot of work to do on this.....mostly him....