Mormonism And Grace

[Anijen]

Okay,this is a good point and seems to be the crux of the issue. I understand where you are coming from and I respect your belief, but you still seem to be misunderstanding the LDS perspective. LDS do not believe that we can earn or deserve our salvation. Before I get more into this, let me ask you a question, do you believe that Christ requires anything of you?

Best,

T-Shirt

Tshirt emphasis mine is this just another anti defining our religion as if they know it better than its actual members (see my sig).

[Flyonthewall]

According to Mosiah you are indebted to God. According to the Bible you are not indebted to God. Jesus has paid the debt in full. But since you believe you are yet indebted to God, you are earning your way. You reject what Jesus has done for you and in doing so, you reject Jesus

I don't quite understand how you can take a very plain message, and screw it all up!

Being indebted to God does not mean we are earning our way, that is your spin, not ours.

I accept what Jesus has done for me, and because I believe in Jesus Christ, I will try to keep His commandments, and follow His teachings as He has laid out, and repent as needed.

From your statements, I see that you do not feel you need do anything to be "saved". In fact, You won't do anything until you are already saved. No repentance. No living the commandments. This is tantamount to telling Jesus that you refuse to follow Him until He saves you. In this, you do reject the teachings of Christ, thus rejecting Jesus, and rejecting God the Father.

However did you come to this point?

[Flyonthewall]

James is one of my favorite books as a WELS Lutheran.

Faith without works is dead.

But works come AFTER we are saved. They don't come in order to be saved.

The works that James speaks of are works that justify us before MEN, not GOD.

You make no sense.

We are saved by grace through our faith. Yet our faith is dead without works. So you are stating that dead faith will save you. Or in other words, we do not require faith to be saved.

You know, with logic like that, you will turn to butter very quickly.

[Flyonthewall]

I would never describe LDS beliefs wrong or untruthfully intentionally. I have no desire to do that. But I am not certain that it is me who is misunderstanding something here. I do suspect it is you misunderstanding our theology on what it means to earn your way to heaven.

In our theology, any "condition" to salvation is earning your way. Whether in part or completely. makes no difference.

The fact that your salvation rests on you meeting those conditions means that you make the difference as to whether or not you are saved.

Any condition? like Belief? like faith?

Any way you slice it, your salvation is conditinoal upon belief in Christ, and all it's accompanying actions, and upon your faith, with all its accompanying works.

Looks like you are out of luck!

[TrespassersW]

Returning to the OP:

"Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

According to the above passage from Moroni Chapter 10 Verse 32 the only people who receive the grace of Christ are those who meet the following conditions:

1) denial of ALL ungodliness

2) loving God with ALL might, mind, and strength

If this is true, how is it possible for anyone to receive grace?

In LDS thought, a person receives the grace of Christ to absolve them from a particular sin, when they repent of that sin (that is, they deny themselves that particular form of ungodliness). Once a person has repented of all their sins (that is, denied themselves of all ungodliness), then they will be made perfect in Christ.

Thus, your statement is incorrect. A person can, and does, receive the grace of Christ prior to becoming perfect. The grace of Christ absolves us of our sins as we repent and turn away from them. So, to the extent we manage to turn away from our sins, the grace of Christ cleanses us of them.

The scripture you quoted does not say that no one receives the grace of Christ until they are perfect, it says that no one is made perfect until they have denied themselves of all ungodliness (or, repented of all their sins).

[revelation]

Does the dictionary come before or after Leviticus?

Lehi

From Websters Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language:

"Mercy, clemency, pardon, the freely given unmerited favor and love of God, the Spirit or influence of God operating in man to regenerate him"

The LDS teaches that grace comes after obedience. Which means that regeneration comes after obedience.

Grace is forgiveness. If the LDS must first be obedient, then forgiveness isn't given until after obedience since grace comes after obedience.

What does clemency from above mean?: From Websters:

"Forgiveness"

What does Pardon mean?: From Websters:

"Forgiveness of an offense or an offender. a release from the penalty of an offense, to remit the penalty of an offense, to release a person from liablity for an offense, remission.

The LDS views Jesus as their creditor. You must pay him back. Therefore Jesus didn't release you from liability as he has for us.

What does remit or remission mean? From Websters:

"To forgive, to refrain from inflicting or enforcing a punishment, to remit a fine, to set free, to release, the relinquishment of an obligation or payment, absolution."

You are not freed from obligation. You are now obligated to pay Jesus back. You have therefore not been forgiven and you won't be until you pay back what you owe. We believe we are forgiven.

But the truth is that we are so completely forgiven that we have been made perfect forever. Hebrews 10:14 "he has made perfect forever those who are being made Holy" That is why we may KNOW right now that the celestial kingdom is our home. 1 John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life"

You havn't been forgiven, because you don't know if you have eternal life.

What does absolution mean? From Websters:

"Release from consequences, obligations, penalties,"

We have no obligations. We serve and obey God out of freedom not obligation.

[revelation]

Not every one that says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of my Father but he that Doeth the will of my Father.

Notice it doesnt say he that believth the will of my Father. The key word is do. By doing we exersie faith and then that allows us to lay claim to Gods good Grace. Faith with out works is dead. Faith is one alive by works. There is no way around this.

Actually, the Bible does say that he that believeth is doing the will of God:

John 6:28-29 "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

You don't believe in the one he has sent, you believe in your good works.

Romans 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

You don't believe Jesus is Lord, you believe you are Lord and this is because you believe in salvation by faith and works. You believe Salvation only comes to the obedient.

Acts 16:30-31 "He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be savedâ??you and your household."

You don't believe in the Lord Jesus, you would say: Believe in the Lord Jesus' commandments and do them, then you will be saved.

John 6:40 "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

You don't look to the son and believe in him for eternal life. Those who do already know they have it. You don't have that confidence because you must first be obedient. So your confidence can only be found in your obedience. My confidence is found in Jesus alone. I believe in him and not in myself.

And so I say to you: not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of the father. His will is that you believe on Jesus instead of believing in yourselves and your works.

[revelation]

Okay,this is a good point and seems to be the crux of the issue. I understand where you are coming from and I respect your belief, but you still seem to be misunderstanding the LDS perspective. LDS do not believe that we can earn or deserve our salvation. Before I get more into this, let me ask you a question, do you believe that Christ requires anything of you?

Best,

T-Shirt

I believe that Christ requires nothing of me to be saved into the celestial kingdom. I was dead and he made me alive. Nothing can be expected from a dead person.

[T-Shirt]

I believe that Christ requires nothing of me to be saved into the celestial kingdom. I was dead and he made me alive. Nothing can be expected from a dead person.

Can you give me your interpretation of (Luke 12:41-48.)

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Best,

T-Shirt

[Flyonthewall]

Actually, the Bible does say that he that believeth is doing the will of God:

Is there anything besides belief that is doing the will of God? What is God's will? Does it involve obedience to Him? Or can we disobey all we want and still feel confident that we are still saved...because there is nothing required of us?

And so I say to you: not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only those who do the will of the father. His will is that you believe on Jesus instead of believing in yourselves and your works.

But you just said that the Lord requires nothing from you, and now you are saying there is a condition of DOING the Lord's will. That is a contradiction.

[sean0scott]

I believe that Christ requires nothing of me to be saved into the celestial kingdom. I was dead and he made me alive. Nothing can be expected from a dead person.

Yet here we are, made alive. I believe His love for me drives him to expect the best out of me. Nothing is expected from a dead person, but living things?

[revelation]

Can you give me your interpretation of (Luke 12:41-48.)

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Best,

T-Shirt

This is speaking about servants of the Lord. They are "servants" therefore they are saved. Those who are saved will do good works

[revelation]

Is there anything besides belief that is doing the will of God? What is God's will? Does it involve obedience to Him? Or can we disobey all we want and still feel confident that we are still saved...because there is nothing required of us?

You are confusing justification with sanctification. Justification is our salvation(forgiveness of sins, made perfect forever...) Sanctification follows justification. Obedience is a natural desire of a person who has already been saved through faith alone.

If you want to talk about how we are saved. We don't bring up works. Works have nothing to do with justification. We are saved through faith alone.

If you want to talk about what happens AFTER we are saved (sanctification) this is where works come into the picture.

But you just said that the Lord requires nothing from you, and now you are saying there is a condition of DOING the Lord's will. That is a contradiction.

"Believing" is not a condition, it is a gift from the Lord so we cannot take credit for it. Notice also that we are saved "THROUGH" faith, not because of faith. Faith is merely the means. Grace is actually what saves.

[revelation]

Yet here we are, made alive. I believe His love for me drives him to expect the best out of me. Nothing is expected from a dead person, but living things?

Nothing is expected from a dead person. A person who is then saved(forgiven) is made alive. The living THEN do desire to obey God.

[Trencher7]

Are any of the following statements much different?

â??He that repents of what he did, no longer does or says the things he didâ?¦He, then who has received the forgiveness of sins should sin no more.â?

Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.360.

â??God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning the past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out. For only the Father is able to undo what is done.â?

Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.602.

â??God especially desires for men to be cleansed from their sins. Therefore, he commands them to repent. Yet to repent is nothing else than to profess and affirm that one will sin no more.â?

Lactanius (c. 304-313, W) 7.178

â??True repentance means to be no longer bound in the same sins for which He denounced death against Himself. Rather, it is to eradicate them completely from the soul. For on their extirpation, God takes up His abode again in you.â?

Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.602

â??For what I say is this, that the repentance which, being shown us and commanded us through God's grace, recalls us to grace with the Lord, when once learned and undertaken by us ought never afterward to be cancelled by repetition of sin.â?

Tertullian On Repentance (Ch 5.)