Elder Bruce R. Mc Conkie

[Daniel Peterson]

McConkie's open contempt for, mockery of, and blatant lies about the Catholic Church disqualify him from consideration as a teacher of truth or honorable person.

Well, if we're going to play the I've-been-offended game, let me go on record to say that I find the statement above grossly offensive and disgusting, and that I'm very disappointed in S

[Stargazer]

Well, if we're going to play the I've-been-offended game, let me go on record to say that I find the statement above grossly offensive and disgusting, and that I'm very disappointed in S

[Leelee]

I was in my early 30's when I heard this talk and I will NEVER forget the experience. As I was growing up, I would usually find something else to do when it was his turn to speak. I thought he was 'boring'.

That day I was interested in what he would have to say because I knew how sick he was and figured it would be his last talk. As he spoke, the Spirit visited upon me in a way that I will never forget. I have reread it so many times and have memorized a lot of it. Whenever I read it, I HEAR him saying it and the same spiritual experience returns to me.

It was powerful and remains so to this day for me. I am so grateful I was smart enough to stay in the room that day. Thanks for the great memory.

Leelee

[Cold Steel]

Catholics and Mormons must exist with a delicate truce. Elder McConkie believed sincerely that the Catholic church was the great and abominable church of the devil, and the thought crossed my mind when I first read the Book of Mormon. Still, on closer reading, there are many aspects of today's Babylon that more closely fit that prophecy. Is the Catholic church part of Babylon? Well, given the apparent murder of Pope John Paul I and the implication of the Vatican Bank, I believe if the shoe fits.... Still, we must be take the lead from the First Presidency, and we won't make friends with Catholics by judging them. From what I've read, President McKay (McKay, McConkie...hmmmm) once harbored similar thoughts about the Catholic faith, but later developed a close association with it. I'm content to let God judge. As it is now, I'd say the Latter-day Saints and the Catholics have some common enemies that seem to fit the description of that evil church much more than any specific Christian sect.

As Zion constitutes the hearts of the faithful, the evil church may also simply reside in the hearts of evil men.

[CMZ]

To me there's not much of a dilemma to grapple with concerning the Catholic Church when you're able to separate the bad, the neutral, and the good. Elder McConkie's outlash against the Catholic Church was against the bad parts of its history, not its members, and he tempered his overall view of the Catholic Church as a whole as he progressed in life. President Uchtdorf's most recent conference talk clarifies that there are sincere people in all religions who are doing the best they can and no judgment should be made against them.

I participated in a Catholic wedding service recently and was impressed at the depth of the sincerity of the officiating priest and the majority of the attendants. The priest knew it was a Catholic and a Mormon getting married and was very respectful to everyone. Near the end of the ceremony he invited the congregation up to partake of the eucharist but beforehand he said, "I understand there are people here who are not Catholic but you are still invited to come forward in the eucharist line and if you don't wish to partake of it just fold your arms across your chest like this (in basically an X pattern) as you step up to me and I will be happy to give you a blessing instead." I got in the line and as I approached him I folded my arms in the appropriate manner and received a blessing from him and I thought, "This is great. This is fellow believers in Christ being good to each other."

[why me]

Well, if we're going to play the I've-been-offended game, let me go on record to say that I find the statement above grossly offensive and disgusting, and that I'm very disappointed in S

[Darth_Bill]

I remember it because my friend and I had just come back from climbing the "Y" and we sat in the dorm lobby to rest. I can't remember being more touched by a talk and realizing that this was his final testimony to the church.

I do find it difficult to read his books, and I think I took a class by his son and disagreed all the time with what he said. However, I couldn't deny what I felt, and still feel, about that talk.

[rpn]

I wasn't active in the church at the time. And I remember vividly having the spirit testify that Elder McKonkie really knew our Savior. It was every bit as powerful and memorable to me as to the OP and others here.

[The Spectre]

Going purely from memory here, aren't you a big city police detective by the name of Corrigan?

Ummm yesssss.... But now that you have outed my alter(ed) ego, I am going to have to kill you and it ain't gonna be pretty.

http://scifipedia.scifi.com/images/5/5c/Spectre-4.JPG

(Kidding of course. Don't send the fuzz [or worse] after me)

[Flyonthewall]

I can understand soren very well. What Elder McConkie wrote about the catholic church was not very nice and catholics, who love their church, will be offended and have been offended. In fact, I am still defending the lds church on the catholic apologetic site and Elder McConkie's statement about the catholic church is a favorite of the forum.

I think that the lds would feel the same way if a catholic leader said something offensive about the lds church.

Like "mormons are not christian"?

No matter what Elder McConkie said or wrote, he never once stated that Catholics are not christian.

I think that everything the he said about the Catholic church, has been said or implied by a Pope, about the LDS church. So I would think that those that take offense at McConkie's words on Catholics, would also take offense at the Pope's words on Mormons?

Offense, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, or which end of the words one is on.

[The Spectre]

I thought you were named Hal Jordan for a while.

Yeah, the whole Hal as my host thing was a good idea, that fell victim to bad writing. It's tough when your life is controlled by crazy writers let me tell ya.

Now for you crazy ring chargers out there a trivia question. Who can tell me which Hymn in our LDS hymnal is the Green Lantern Hymn?

[ERMD]

I've related this before, but it seems like a good time to repeat myself.

I was in the MTC Christmas of 1984. Elder McConkie came and spoke to us that day. He was obviously thin. I took notes during his address, and near the end he said, "It just so happens that I have a perfect knowledge that he (Jesus Christ) is the Son of God."

I have nothing but immense respect for the man. Reading what his wife said about him was touching.

[Lightbearer]

McConkie's open contempt for, mockery of, and blatant lies about the Catholic Church disqualify him from consideration as a teacher of truth or honorable person.

Anyone who has the spirit of Christ who heard that talk (I heard it and have read it many times) would know that Elder Bruce R. McConkie was an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and I defy you or anyone to prove that he or any other apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has ever said anything that could be proven to be a LIE about the Catholic or any other Church. As for contempt for or mockery of the Catholic or any other church, I suppose that may be in the eyes of the beholder. I am offended at the blatant lies, contempt and mockery aimed at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But so what? It all depends on what God thinks about it. If the Catholic Church is indeed an apostate form of the true church of Christ then it deserves all the contempt, mockery and criticism it can get. Just as if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a false or apostate church then it deserves to be treated in kind. I suppose it all comes from your own perspective. Elder McConkie was not one to mince words about what he believed was the truth. I admire him for that. In fact it is not without examples form the scriptures:

(Galatians 1:6-12) "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Paul was pretty offensive here, and condemns rather harshly those who would pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul had no more authority than Elder McConkie had, whether it is an apostle of the Lord living in 58 A.D. or 1985 A.D. or 2008 A.D. it is the same.

[Daniel Peterson]

I can understand soren very well. What Elder McConkie wrote about the catholic church was not very nice and catholics, who love their church, will be offended and have been offended. In fact, I am still defending the lds church on the catholic apologetic site and Elder McConkie's statement about the catholic church is a favorite of the forum.

I disagree strongly with what Elder McConkie said about the Roman Catholic Church. I always have.

But I don't think he "blatantly lied," and I don't think he deserves the flat contempt expressed by S

[why me]

Anyone who has the spirit of Christ who heard that talk (I heard it and have read it many times) would know that Elder Bruce R. McConkie was an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ and I defy you or anyone to prove that he or any other apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has ever said anything that could be proven to be a LIE about the Catholic or any other Church. As for contempt for or mockery of the Catholic or any other church, I suppose that may be in the eyes of the beholder. I am offended at the blatant lies, contempt and mockery aimed at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But so what? It all depends on what God thinks about it. If the Catholic Church is indeed an apostate form of the true church of Christ then it deserves all the contempt, mockery and criticism it can get. Just as if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a false or apostate church then it deserves to be treated in kind. I suppose it all comes from your own perspective.

I think that Elder McConkie said that the catholic church was the abominable church as mentioned in the book of mormon. If true (if he said it or wrote it in Mormon Doctrine) it would be offensive to catholics and rightly so. Also, the lds church later backed tracked that statement. And it is here that there is a problem. An apostle is not perfect and Elder McConkie did show some imperfection in the first edition of Mormon Doctrine.

Now this doesn't mean that he didn't have the spirit of christ in his last testimony and in his life. But we all make mistakes and he made some mistakes in his life. And among catholics, the mormons are still paying the price.

Yes, catholics do say that mormons are not christian because of their different interpretation of the trinity. And yes, on the catholic apologetic site they can be quite offensive about it and I do give them heck on that forum when they make such a statement.

But the lds also need to come to understand that catholics may not like Elder McConkie for his statements about the catholic church.

[why me]

I disagree strongly with what Elder McConkie said about the Roman Catholic Church. I always have.

But I don't think he "blatantly lied," and I don't think he deserves the flat contempt expressed by S

[why me]

Catholics and Mormons must exist with a delicate truce. Elder McConkie believed sincerely that the Catholic church was the great and abominable church of the devil, and the thought crossed my mind when I first read the Book of Mormon. Still, on closer reading, there are many aspects of today's Babylon that more closely fit that prophecy. Is the Catholic church part of Babylon? Well, given the apparent murder of Pope John Paul I and the implication of the Vatican Bank, I believe if the shoe fits.... Still, we must be take the lead from the First Presidency, and we won't make friends with Catholics by judging them. From what I've read, President McKay (McKay, McConkie...hmmmm) once harbored similar thoughts about the Catholic faith, but later developed a close association with it. I'm content to let God judge. As it is now, I'd say the Latter-day Saints and the Catholics have some common enemies that seem to fit the description of that evil church much more than any specific Christian sect.

As Zion constitutes the hearts of the faithful, the evil church may also simply reside in the hearts of evil men.

I think that a truce is had by most catholics and mormons. But among catholic apologists, a truce will not happen. They have too much at stake for a truce. For catholic apologists, the lds faith is a threat. They even sent out an email to many on their email list detailing the mormon threat and this occured only a year ago. And of course, Elder McConkie has some responsibility in this.

It is unclear just how Pope John Paul I died. There was a book written not long after his death claiming a conspiracy murder. But it was unproven.

Those who know active catholics and know the good that the catholic church has done toward the poor, could see that the church is not abominable. Many priests are very holy and good-hearted and love god. Likewise for the nuns and sisters. The catholic church has done much good for societies throughout the world.

[Daniel Peterson]

I think that Elder McConkie said that the catholic church was the abominable church as mentioned in the book of mormon. If true (if he said it or wrote it in Mormon Doctrine) it would be offensive to catholics and rightly so. Also, the lds church later backed tracked that statement. And it is here that there is a problem. An apostle is not perfect and Elder McConkie did show some imperfection in the first edition of Mormon Doctrine.

He wasn't an apostle when he wrote Mormon Doctrine.

And, as I've said, I think some of his views on the Catholic Church were seriously mistaken. So did the Brethren at the time Mormon Doctrine appeared.

And, as a matter of fact, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Roman Catholic Church have quite good relations on a number of levels (e.g., between the leadership of the two churches in Salt Lake City, with regard to scholarly work in the Vatican, in humanitarian collaboration between LDS Philanthropies and Catholic Charities, etc.).

Yes, catholics do say that mormons are not christian because of their different interpretation of the trinity.

Some do, and some give that reason.

But the lds also need to come to understand that catholics may not like Elder McConkie for his statements about the catholic church.

I understand Catholic displeasure at some of the things Elder McConkie had to say, and I'm not asking them to "like" him.

But it's far, far too strong to say that someone's differing religious views "disqualify him from consideration as a teacher of truth or honorable person." That's the way religious wars start, by utterly dehumanizing and devaluing people who disagree.

[why me]

I participated in a Catholic wedding service recently and was impressed at the depth of the sincerity of the officiating priest and the majority of the attendants. The priest knew it was a Catholic and a Mormon getting married and was very respectful to everyone. Near the end of the ceremony he invited the congregation up to partake of the eucharist but beforehand he said, "I understand there are people here who are not Catholic but you are still invited to come forward in the eucharist line and if you don't wish to partake of it just fold your arms across your chest like this (in basically an X pattern) as you step up to me and I will be happy to give you a blessing instead." I got in the line and as I approached him I folded my arms in the appropriate manner and received a blessing from him and I thought, "This is great. This is fellow believers in Christ being good to each other."

Actually, there is something wrong in your post. Non-catholics are not allowed to take the eucharist. But they can get a blessing as you said. I would be very surprised if non-catholics could take the eurcharist. The priest could get into a little trouble about this.

Catholics and mormons have much in common over social issues. Most lds do not understand the good that the catholic church does. It has many committed volunteers, helping the poor and marginalized in various societies. And many dedicated and holy people.

Of course, for Elder McConkie, he made a blunder with his harsh language. But I am sure that he realized it later in his life.

[Lightbearer]

I think that Elder McConkie said that the catholic church was the abominable church as mentioned in the book of mormon. If true (if he said it or wrote it in Mormon Doctrine) it would be offensive to catholics and rightly so. Also, the lds church later backed tracked that statement. And it is here that there is a problem. An apostle is not perfect and Elder McConkie did show some imperfection in the first edition of Mormon Doctrine.

Now this doesn't mean that he didn't have the spirit of christ in his last testimony and in his life. But we all make mistakes and he made some mistakes in his life. And among catholics, the mormons are still paying the price.

Yes, catholics do say that mormons are not christian because of their different interpretation of the trinity. And yes, on the catholic apologetic site they can be quite offensive about it and I do give them heck on that forum when they make such a statement.

But the lds also need to come to understand that catholics may not like Elder McConkie for his statements about the catholic church.

A few points, first Elder McConkie was not an apostle when he wrote Mormon Doctrine and second the church did not specifically "back away" only soften the tone and also Elder McConkie broadened the concept to not just single out the Catholics, but to include ALL churches:

(Joseph Smith-History 1:18-22) "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)â??and which I should join.

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: â??they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.â? He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, â??Never mind, all is wellâ??I am well enough off.â? I then said to my mother, â??I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.â? It seems as though the adversary was aware, at a very early period of my life, that I was destined to prove a disturber and an annoyer of his kingdom; else why should the powers of darkness combine against me? Why the opposition and persecution that arose against me, almost in my infancy?

Some preachers and other professors of religion reject account of First Visionâ??Persecution heaped upon Joseph Smithâ??He testifies of the reality of the vision. (Verses 21-26.) Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or revelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them. I soon found, however, that my telling the story had excited a great deal of prejudice against me among professors of religion, and was the cause of great persecution, which continued to increase; and though I was an obscure boy, only between fourteen and fifteen years of age, and my circumstances in life such as to make a boy of no consequence in the world, yet men of high standing would take notice sufficient to excite the public mind against me, and create a bitter persecution; and this was common among all the sectsâ??all united to persecute me."

These words are also controversial for the same reason, and as far as I know the Church has not removed them from the scriptures. You cannot stand up for truth without making all hell boil over. That is a fact and while we try to be as tactful and respectful as we can we cannot deny our revelations, just as Joseph could not deny his vision.

[why me]

He wasn't an apostle when he wrote Mormon Doctrine.

And, as I've said, I think some of his views on the Catholic Church were seriously mistaken. So did the Brethren at the time Mormon Doctrine appeared.

And, as a matter of fact, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Roman Catholic Church have quite good relations on a number of levels (e.g., between the leadership of the two churches in Salt Lake City, with regard to scholarly work in the Vatican, in humanitarian collaboration between LDS Philanthropies and Catholic Charities, etc.).

Some do, and some give that reason.

I understand Catholic displeasure at some of the things Elder McConkie had to say, and I'm not asking them to "like" him.

But it's far, far too strong to say that someone's differing religious views "disqualify him from consideration as a teacher of truth or honorable person." That's the way religious wars start, by utterly dehumanizing and devaluing people who disagree.

I think that many catholic apologists need to hear that Elder McConkie was not an apostle when he wrote Mormon Doctrine. It tends to get lost in 'translation'. I have also written many times on the catholic apologist forum that mormons and catholics can have a terrific relationship over many issues for the public good. And quite often mormons and catholics do come together for charity work. But antimormonism can have its voice on the catholic apologist forum which is surprising since catholics should not be judgemental or voice contention.

No one should be 'horsewhipped' over one mishap. No one is perfect. And I have stated such on the catholic forum. To see the true nature of a human being, the complete picture must be viewed and Elder McConkie fits the picture of a great human being rather nicely.

[why me]

A few points, first Elder McConkie was not an apostle when he wrote Mormon Doctrine and second the church did not specifically "back away" only soften the tone and also Elder McConkie broadened the concept to not just single out the Catholics, but to include ALL churches:These words are also controversial for the same reason, and as far as I know the Church has not removed them from the scriptures. You cannot stand up for truth without making all hell boil over. That is a fact and while we try to be as tactful and respectful as we can we cannot deny our revelations, just as Joseph could not deny his vision.

Mormons receive alot of flak for that statement by Joseph Smith also. On the catholic site, some catholics have taken offense about that statement by Joseph Smith because it means that their creed is an abomination. Not a nice concept for non-mormons to contemplate.

But as I have said before, there would be no need for a restoration if god did not think that other creeds were an abomination. It just comes with the turf. But the lds need to understand that Joseph Smith's statement might get a negative reaction from other churches and at times among such churches' members, and some antimormonism may show its head.

And it can be claimed that the original antimormonism that surrounded Joseph Smith was due to that statement by him: that all other creeds were an abomination to god.

[a_little_taller]

In April of 1985, I was attending General Conference at the stake center in Austin, Texas.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie spoke and bore what would be his final testimony. His image was projected on a big screen at the front of the chapel.

While he bore his testimony, I felt the spirit in a powerful way; as if it were a mighty and rushing wind swooping down from his image on the screen and blowing directly into my face and past me toward the back of the chapel.

Although I have had differences with Elder McConkie in some of the things he said and the way he said them, I always have to leaven those opinions with this experience.

I was wondering if anybody else experienced anything similar during his final testimony.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I remember this talk very well because the Spirit testified to my heart as he spoke these words that they were true. Another talk of his that had a power effect on me was one he gave while I was on my misson. Something about how "The Caravan Moves On" . "What does it matter that a few barking dogs snap at the heels of the weary traveller. Or that predators claim a few who fall along the way? The oxen are strong and the teamsters wise.... the caravan moves on." I guess that had an effect because of the circumstances I was in as a missionary, but his testimony and confidence definitely boosted my spirit.

Just a side note. My father was a stake president during the time I was in high school. After I graduated and was preparing to leave for BYU, we had a stake conference. This was in the day when general authorities would stay at the stake president's home. We had the pleasure of getting to meet personally several general authorities and apostles. This particular conference, Elder McConkie was presiding, and we spent several hours with him. I kick myself now, because the only question I could think to ask him was if he played any basketball (he was a rather tall man). I don't even recall his answer, but I remember him looking me in the eyes and chuckling. I was impressed with his stature, both physically and spiritually. Also, I had always considered him a stern, son-of-thunder type, but he was actually quite jovial and easy going when not in the public eye.

I was to be ordained an Elder after the last session of stake conference and, since he was just hanging out by the stake offices, I asked Elder McConkie if he would participate. He declined because he was waiting for a ride to the airport and didn't want to have to interupt things. But as I've thought about it more over the years, I think in his wisdom, he didn't want his celebrity to over-shadow what should and was a priceless moment with my father and family. Or maybe he just wanted to rob me of bragging rights!

[jwhitlock]

I understand your opinion but I can understand soren shooting from the hip. Some catholics (those in the know) are highly sensitive about the first edition of mormon doctrine. But what they don't understand is that the lds church distanced themselves from Elder McConkie's comments. And I do remember at the age of 18 (many, many years ago) studying the book of mormon in Institute and it was implied that the catholic church was the abominable church. And it all came from mormon doctrine.

I just think that soren gave an emotional reaction to Elder McConkie. I give him or her pardon.

There's a large difference between disagreeing with Elder McConkie and making a value judgment about him which is what soren did. Soren needs to be taken to task for the inappropriateness of his comment.

In order to have good Catholic - LDS dialogue, understanding, and cooperation, it is necessary for both sides to put aside a fair amount of value judging concerning the other, no matter how it may hurt one's pride to do so. Soren seems to have a penchant for sniffing about various things he deems inappropriate about Mormon history or practice, while ignoring the enormous glass house he lives in.

As was mentioned, the kind of value judging soren did is what leads to religious wars. No matter how offended he wants to portray himself as, he basically stuck his foot in it this time.

[3DOP]

Although I have heard much about Bruce McConkie during my years on LDS message boards, I haven't read or heard one word he has ever spoken except that he identified the Catholic Church as the Whore of Babylon. I can't hold that against him. Many Catholic commentators hold that pagan Rome was the whore of Babylon. When St. John talks about the city on seven hills its pretty hard to get away from Rome. So...when you don't believe the Catholic Church is the true church...when you truly believe that the medieval Catholic Church promoted torturing people into converting...its pretty reasonable to identify the Catholic Church as McConkie did. If you take the Book of Revelation seriously, you are almost forced to identify either pagan Rome or Catholic Rome as the Whore.

I don't say this to set myself apart from soren. I covet soren's good opinion of my ideas as much as any person here at MAD&B. He is more committed than I am to an apologetic that is familiar with LDS literature. He sees things I miss. I think he is usually smart, but more importantly, I think he has good will toward devout Latter Day Saints. He is not an "anti-Mormon". He wants to oppose only what you really believe. He has probably read Mormon Doctrine and the Quad. You all (LDS) should appreciate that about him. I'll read the Book of Mormon prayerfully when I am convinced I need to because of an apostasy and not before.

I think most people who vigorously oppose the Catholic Church really believe the exaggerated stories that usually center around a handful of bad popes. Most of them don't hate us. I would suggest that God even approves in a strange way, their apparent condemnation of Catholicism, because they are condemning that which would truly be wrong, evil, and unjust if it had actually happened. The only problem is the misinformation that has been circulating since the printing presses first started rolling. I doubt that McConkie was being dishonest. I think, like so many, he honestly believed the lies and distortions which have screened much of the Christian world from the truth and beauty of the Catholic Church. And I can't blame any sincere non-Catholic for being forced, through faith in the authenticity of the book of Revelation, of identifying the Whore, seated on the city with seven hills as Catholic Rome, even if most Mormons think McConkie was erring. I think these LDS need to offer an alternative interpretation, because if belief in an apostasy ever led me to become a Latter Day Saint, I would be hard pressed to understand how Catholic Rome is not what is being spoken against in the Book of Revelation.