Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?

[johnny]

Lightbearer,

Is it possible to fall away from this state of grace?

It is possible to fall away from the state of grace, it is called blasphemy.

How is stating the same thing that James said "Faith without works is dead" perverting the Gospel?

The words in the Book of Mormon pervert the gospel of Christ because the Book of Mormon reveals that the atonement is not enough to have eternal life with our Heavenly Father.

It makes no sense at all, we either have agency and can choose good or evil or we do not and God "does it all" in which case it would make God the one responsible for sin.

We have agency, we can choose what to with the talents that God gives us. Some servants will be faithful servants and some will be wicked servants.

I submit that you are in error, Jesus did not teach against marriage, in fact the passage you quote is about divorce and the Law of Moses:

I did not say Jesus is teaching against marriage.

Amazing what happens when you read a scripture in the context it is given. As for Paul to the Corinthians he was giving counsel to those who were called to the ministry at that time, and it was specific to those cases. In fact he even informed Timothy that there would be some in the last days that would forbid to marry:

Amazing what happens when you ignore Paulâ??s verse to the unmarried. I am not saying marriage is forbidden. I am saying what Paul is saying and that is marriage is for some and marriage is not for those who have the calling of unmarried for the kingdom of God.

Absolutely correct, and what will we "do" if we love one another? Let us read from the scripture you suggested:

1John 3:1-10 says â??this hopeâ?, it is the hope that purifies. It is God's mercy that purifes and saves (see Titus 3 below).

Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;)

I think that sums it up very much for the OP, we cannot be saved without obedience.

I think it sums up that Mormon doctrine is not consistent with the Bible.

It sums up that we are saved by grace, scripture does not reveal we are saved by grace and obedience. It is not of works (see Eph 2:8 below).

Eph.2 (8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.)

[wenglund]

If commandments represent the revealed will of God, then the marvelous question posed in the OP can be rephrased to ask:

"Can a person be saved without complying with the will of God?"

There may also be asked: "Saved from what?"

Can a person be saved from ignorance, and gain eternal life through coming to know God the eternal Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, with out obedience to the laws and commandments to seek, knock, ponder, study, pray, etc.? (See: Jn 4:14; Eph 3:17-19; Eph 4:11-13; 2 Cor 8:7; Col 1:28; 2Pet 1:5-8

Can a person be saved from sin absent obedience to the commandments and laws of faith (Mt 23:23; Act 14:22; Rom 1:15; 3:31), repentance (Mk 6:2; Lk ll:3,5; Act 11:18), baptism (Lk 7:30; 1Pet 3:21; 1 Cor 11:22), Gift of the Holy Ghost (Act 2:38-39; 1 Cor 6:11; 12:3), and enduring to the end?

Can a person be saved from their self-centric fallen nature, and take upon themself the charitable nature of Christ absent obedience to the laws of love? (See Lk 10:25-28; Jn 15:10; Gal 6:2; 1thes 4:9-10; 1Jn 2:3-6; 4:7-8, 12, 16; 5:3)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ebeddoulos]

ebeddoulos,

Since you are able to comprehend scripture, please display where I am not consistent with scripture.

Please back up your empty words.

Thank you for proving my point that you fail to comprehend scripture, dictionary and now it seems my simple posts. I already have here and here.

Read. Pay attention. Learn.

Once again, go blow the dust off your Bible, open it up and prayerfully read it so that next time you might actually get something right.

You are now dismissed. Run along.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Lightbearer,

It is possible to fall away from the state of grace, it is called blasphemy.

So that would seem to be all that we can do is to not blaspheme?? There you go that sounds like goood ol mormon doctrine to me.

[Zakuska]

I think it sums up that Mormon doctrine is not consistent with the Bible.

It sums up that we are saved by grace, scripture does not reveal we are saved by grace and obedience. It is not of works (see Eph 2:8 below).

Eph.2 (8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.)

Continuing...

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What happens if you disobey and don't walk in good works Johnny?

Rom. 10: 16

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thes. 1: 8

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Pet. 4: 17

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Those who don't obey have a lake of fire waitn for them Johnny.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What happens if you disobey and don't walk in good works Johnny?

Round and round and round and round.

You dont need good works that isnt what saves you, but good works are a product of salvation but if I dont have good works then I am not saved so you do need good works but they arent required for salvation but they are a product........................

[Bsix]

I think the Savior Jesus Christ was explicitly clear regarding the role of works in regards to salvation. Jesus himself declared:

Matt 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Regards,

Six

[Tanyan]

All we can do in 2 Nephi 25:23 - Was Keep The Law Of Moses with Faith in Christ Jesus

All we can do today is keep the 2 Great commandments [ Which include all commandments that are of Great/Minor worth which fall under one of those 2 commandments] with an Eye Single to The Glory Of GOD/Jesus Christ in True Faith = "Pistis".

Why cannot Johnny Understand and get that simple concept ?. .

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Rommelator]

The words in the Book of Mormon pervert the gospel of Christ because the Book of Mormon reveals that the atonement is not enough to have eternal life with our Heavenly Father.

CFR!! CFR!!

[Tanyan]

Where does Johnny get these ideas/thoughts from . I believe that Johnny and Jack Chick should get together for a meal. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan.

[johnny]

wenglund,

There may also be asked: "Saved from what?"

Saved from everlasting punishment, we are saved because of Godâ??s grace. None of the verses you posted reveal that we are saved because of grace and â??after all we can doâ? like the Book of Mormon reveals. Those saved will have eternal life with their heavenly Father.

ebeddoulos

Read. Pay attention. Learn.

Pay attention to the words of Jesus and the apostle Paul, neither one is saying that marriage is a commandment like the Mormon Church commands Jesus and Paul say the following to the unmarried:

Matt.19 (10] His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. [11] But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. [12] For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.)

1Cor.7 ([7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [9] But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. [10] And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: [17] But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. [20] Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: [33] But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. [34] There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. )

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

So that would seem to be all that we can do is to not blaspheme?? There you go that sounds like goood ol mormon doctrine to me.

You could also do evil â?¦

John.5 ([27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. [28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.)

Zakuska

What happens if you disobey and don't walk in good works Johnny?

The unprofitable servant goes into outer darkness (Matt 25:30).

Those who don't obey have a lake of fire waitn for them Johnny.

The cursed go into everlasting punishment (Matt 25:34-46)

[Tanyan]

Now can we all get back on topic of this thread "PLEASE"!. Can you be Saved without Obedience ?. Thank you.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Tanyan]

Hebrews 5:9.

[Zakuska]

You could also do evil â?¦

John.5 ([27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. [28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.)

Hmmm... so then WORKS have just as much to do with our final state and being saved as grace does.

[Tanyan]

Hmmm... so then WORKS have just as much to do with our final state and being saved as grace does.

Oh Zak stop it !.

[johnny]

Bsix

I think the Savior Jesus Christ was explicitly clear regarding the role of works in regards to salvation. Jesus himself declared:

Good work is God working in you. Good work is a grace, good fruit is the fruit of the Spirit.

Phil.2 ([12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. [13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.)

Gal.5 ([22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. ]

Rommelator,

> The words in the Book of Mormon pervert the gospel of Christ because the Book of Mormon reveals that the atonement is not enough to have eternal life with our Heavenly Father.

CFR!! CFR!!

The references are the BoM and the Bible:

The Book of Mormon says â??it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can doâ?.

The Bible says â??by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.â?

The Bible says that the atonement is a gift by grace,

Rom.5 ([1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. [12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: [13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. [14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. [15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. [16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. [17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) [18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. [19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.)

The Mormon Gospel Principles teaches in Chapter 12 the following about the atonement:

Gospel Principles Chapter 12

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-18,00.html

Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Council of the Twelve gave the following illustration to show how Christ's atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part. ... 'The creditor replied, 'Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice? ... 'It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty,' the creditor replied. 'That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice. ... There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extended--but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time ... Then,' said the benefactor, 'you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison. ... The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was satisfied"

[Zakuska]

Gospel Principles Chapter 12

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-18,00.html

Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Council of the Twelve gave the following illustration to show how Christ's atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part. ... 'The creditor replied, 'Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice? ... 'It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty,' the creditor replied. 'That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice. ... There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extended--but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time ... Then,' said the benefactor, 'you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison. ... The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was satisfied"

Perfectly Biblical...

1 Jn. 1: 9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

IF we don't do our part (IE Confess our sins)...

[wenglund]

wenglund,Saved from everlasting punishment, we are saved because of Godâ??s grace. None of the verses you posted reveal that we are saved because of grace and â??after all we can doâ? like the Book of Mormon reveals. Those saved will have eternal life with their heavenly Father.

You are obviously confused. I wasn't speaking to grace or "after all we can do". I was speaking to whether one can be saved without obeying the commandments (which, in case you had forgotten, is the subject of this thread, as I explicitly identified in my post). The scriptures I posted were evidence in support of what I said. Please do try and correctly follow the line of discussion.

By the way, here are some more scriptures that speak to the question of obedience to commandments and salvation/eternal life:

-"Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? . . .if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."(Matt 19:16-17 ; Lk 18:18-22)

-"teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded."(Matt 28:20)

-"Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God."(1 Cor 7:19)

-"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death."(Jn 8:51)

-"And I know that his commandment is life everlasting."(Jn 12:50; Prov 6:23)

-"To obey is better than sacrifice, as in obeying the voice of the Lord."(1 Sam 15:22; Isa 1:10-20; Jer 7:22-23; Hos 6:6; Amos 5:21-23; Mic 6:6-8; Heb 10:6-9)

-"Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever."(Heb 13:21)

-"Why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"(Lk 6:46-49)

-"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (Jn 3:21)

-"For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified".(Rom 2:11-13)

-"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."(James 1:21-25)

-"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit."(1 Pet 1:22)

-"If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."(Jn 8:3)

-"For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification."(1 Thes 4:2-3)

-"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."( Heb 5:9)

-"This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."(Heb 10:16-17)

-"Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you." (Phil 4:9)

-"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."(1Jn 3:23-24)

-"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." (2 Pet 2:21-22)

(See also: Pro 28:18; Act 21:24-26; Rom 6:4; 8:1-4; 1 Cor 15:34; Gal 3:1; 5:1-21; 6:16; Eph 2:10; 4:1; Col 1:10; 4:12; 1 Thes 2:12; 4:1; 2 Thes 3:4; Heb 12:9; 1 Jn 1:7; 2:6; 2 Jn 1:6),

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[LifeOnaPlate]

Bsix

Good work is God working in you. Good work is a grace, good fruit is the fruit of the Spirit.

Likewise, bad work is God working in you. Bad work is a grace, bad fruit is the fruit of the Spirit. If we cannot choose to do good we logically cannot choose to do evil, unless we all are, quite literally, wholly evil. If that be the case, God created us. And our circumstances. And we are only His creation, he created us ex nihilo. Thus, God is completely responsible for evil.

[Tongue in cheek, of course, and don't quote me without the disclaimer, thanks.]

[Zakuska]

But of course...

Isa. 45: 7

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God made me do it!

[LifeOnaPlate]

Whoa, there. God creates evil. Evil, dude.

[Lightbearer]

Lightbearer,

It is possible to fall away from the state of grace, it is called blasphemy.

If you admit that much, then you are admitting that there are certain things you can do that will put you in an unsaved position. Further it would also follow that you must do certain things to be saved? Obedience is that thing is it not?

(Hebrews 5:8-9) "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Does this not say we must obey Christ in everything He commands us? You argue that marriage is a "Mormon Commandment" but I see it is the word of Christ. You know nothing concerning modern revelation although "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

The words in the Book of Mormon pervert the gospel of Christ because the Book of Mormon reveals that the atonement is not enough to have eternal life with our Heavenly Father.

This is a contemptible LIE, and I also CFR you to show where in the Book of Mormon it says that the atonement is not enough to have eternal life with our Heavenly Father! (You should change your screen name to Zeezerom) Nowhere does it say that... it does say that God will not save us "in our sins" rather from our sins if we will repent!

We have agency, we can choose what to with the talents that God gives us. Some servants will be faithful servants and some will be wicked servants.

So are you saying that if we do not use our talents for good... even if we are "saved" then we are a wicked servants? If so do these wicked servants go to hell? Or perhaps we really are all judged by our works as Jesus said:

(John 5:28) "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Here it seems that we will be judged for good deeds as well as our evil deeds.

I did not say Jesus is teaching against marriage. Amazing what happens when you ignore Paulâ??s verse to the unmarried. I am not saying marriage is forbidden. I am saying what Paul is saying and that is marriage is for some and marriage is not for those who have the calling of unmarried for the kingdom of God.

I was not ignoring what Paul said, but he was talking to those who were doing Missionary work. You still have not acknowledged that God commanded Adam and Eve to be married as He has us all. But that is a side issue to this thread.

1John 3:1-10 says â??this hopeâ?, it is the hope that purifies. It is God's mercy that purifes and saves (see Titus 3 below).

Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;)

I think it sums up that Mormon doctrine is not consistent with the Bible.

No Mormon doctrine is not consistent with your private interpretation of the Bible. Let me give you mine:

(1 John 3:1-8 ) "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

I do not think it could be any simpler than John puts it. Must I point out the obvious?

It sums up that we are saved by grace, scripture does not reveal we are saved by grace and obedience. It is not of works (see Eph 2:8 below).

Eph.2 (8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.)

Okay two can play at that game:

(Galatians 6:7) "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."

Sounds a lot like "enduring to the end." We are not saved by "grace alone" but by faith... what is faith? See the following:

(James 2:14-26) "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

That is exactly what the Book of Mormon teaches, faith is an action word not just a dead belief. Also the following indicates what a "living faith" is:

(James 1:22-27) "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this manâ??s religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

To sum up the Bible, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ is required for salvation (Faith in Christ being the first principle of the Gospel) and that obedience is what makes His grace active and living in our lives, without it we have the dead letter... We all receive the free gift of the resurrection, but the gift of His grace as pertaining to eternal life is conditional and those conditions are obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ (faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring in faith to the end.)

[Zakuska]

Okay two can play at that game:Sounds a lot like "enduring to the end." We are not saved by "grace alone" but by faith... what is faith? See the following:That is exactly what the Book of Mormon teaches, faith is an action word not just a dead belief. Also the following indicates what a "living faith" is:To sum up the Bible, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ is required for salvation (Faith in Christ being the first principle of the Gospel) and that obedience is what makes His grace active and living in our lives, without it we have the dead letter... We all receive the free gift of the resurrection, but the gift of His grace as pertaining to eternal life is conditional and those conditions are obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ (faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring in faith to the end.)

Yep... those are the first principles of his doctrine...

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

[johnny]

Lightbearer,

If you admit that much, then you are admitting that there are certain things you can do that will put you in an unsaved position. Further it would also follow that you must do certain things to be saved? Obedience is that thing is it not?

The thing you must do is accept God's grace.

(Hebrews 5:8-9) "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Does this not say we must obey Christ in everything He commands us? You argue that marriage is a "Mormon Commandment" but I see it is the word of Christ. You know nothing concerning modern revelation although "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Hebrews 5:8-9 does not say "in everything", it simply says "obey him".

This is a contemptible LIE, and I also CFR you to show where in the Book of Mormon it says that the atonement is not enough to have eternal life with our Heavenly Father! (You should change your screen name to Zeezerom) Nowhere does it say that... it does say that God will not save us "in our sins" rather from our sins if we will repent!

The Mormon Church teaches in Chapter 12 of Gospel Principles:

Gospel Principles Chapter 12

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-18,00.html

"Christ did his part to atone for our sins. To make his atonement fully effective in our lives, we must strive to obey him and repent of our sins. . . . if we will keep his terms, which are to repent and keep his commandments, we may return to live with our Heavenly Father."

So are you saying that if we do not use our talents for good... even if we are "saved" then we are a wicked servants? If so do these wicked servants go to hell? Or perhaps we really are all judged by our works as Jesus said:

What I said is consistent with scripture, scripture says,

Matt.25 ([21] His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. [22] He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. [23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. [24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: [25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. [26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: [27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. [28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. [29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. [30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.)

Here it seems that we will be judged for good deeds as well as our evil deeds.

Your are missing the point, it says "done good" and those "done evil" (John 5:28). We show our faith by our works (James 2:18). We are not saved according to our works, but according to his purpose and grace (see 2Tim 1 below).

Jas.2 ([18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.)

2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,)

I was not ignoring what Paul said, but he was talking to those who were doing Missionary work.

The point is that he is talking about being unmarried for the kingdom of God.

I was not ignoring what Paul said, but he was talking to those who were doing Missionary work.

I have addressed the issue of "God commanded Adam and Eve" many times in my earlier posts. Scripture clearly says it is is a blessing, scripture does not reference it as a commandment. If it was a commandment then the words of Jesus and Paul to the unmarried would not be consistent with the Book of Genesis.

No Mormon doctrine is not consistent with your private interpretation of the Bible. Let me give you mine:

(1 John 3:1-8 ) "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself , even as he is pure."

I do not think it could be any simpler than John puts it. Must I point out the obvious?

In 1John 3:1-8 you are missing the obvious words "every man that hath this hope in him" ... he purifies himself because the man has "hope".

Sounds a lot like "enduring to the end." We are not saved by "grace alone" but by faith... what is faith? See the following:

Of course we have to endure to the end, this does not change we are saved by grace through faith. James 2:14-16 is consistent with I am saying.

That is exactly what the Book of Mormon teaches, faith is an action word not just a dead belief. Also the following indicates what a "living faith" is:

We should be "doers of the word" as James 1 indicates. The Book of Mormon teaches "after all we can do" in regards to being saved. The Book of Mormon is not consistent with what the Bible reveals, the Bible clearly reveals "Not of works" (see Eph 2 below)

Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.)

To sum up the Bible, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ is required for salvation (Faith in Christ being the first principle of the Gospel) and that obedience is what makes His grace active and living in our lives, without it we have the dead letter... We all receive the free gift of the resurrection, but the gift of His grace as pertaining to eternal life is conditional and those conditions are obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ (faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring in faith to the end.)

To sum it up the Bible does not reveal that the Mormon commandment "marry and have children" is required to have eternal life with our Heavenly Father.

To sum it up the Book of Mormon is not consitent with the Bible, it perferts the gospel of Christ by adding the words "after all we can do" to "it is by grace that we are saved".

[Zakuska]

What I said is consistent with scripture, scripture says,

But what you said here...

Matt.25 ([21] His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. [22] He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. [23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. [24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: [25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. [26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: [27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. [28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. [29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. [30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.)

Is inconsitant with what you said here...

We should be "doers of the word" as James 1 indicates. The Book of Mormon teaches "after all we can do" in regards to being saved. The Book of Mormon is not consistent with what the Bible reveals, the Bible clearly reveals "Not of works" (see Eph 2 below)

Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.)

What about the next verse...

:BANG:HEAD:WALL: