Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,By believing and trusting the words of God ... Jesus said "thy will be done" ... Mary said "be it unto me according to thy word".How does one believe something? What does it mean to trust something?
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,How does one believe something? What does it mean to trust something?I would suggest you pray and ask God for the wisdom to these questions ... let the Spirit of truth guide you ... I will also pray for you ...
Zakuska Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Hammer,Those reference are consistent with what I have been saying ...You say that "works are a part", if works are part then it is NOT grace. Your belief is not consistent with scripture which reveals (see below).Rom.11 ([6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )James 2 - 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?No Johhny... Your beleif is not consitant with Scriptures...
johnny Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Zakuska,No Johhny... Your beleif is not consitant with Scriptures...Please back up your words .... show me how my belief is not consistent with scripture. My belief is the same as the apostles (see below):Acts.15 ([11] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they)
Zakuska Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Yes through faith.... for works... (Eph 2:8-10) we know all that Johnny.I think you need to be polished or something because you sound like a broken record.
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 10, 2008 Author Posted July 10, 2008 Fig-bearing This...The different degrees referenced in 1Cor 15:40,41 are BEFORE the Final Judgment. AFTER the Final Judgment all the just have the glory of Father and their is only ONE kingdom.What do you mean "the just have the glory of the Father?" The glory of the Father is His. We may dwell in His presence, sure, but do you really believe that the 'just' will actually be as glorious as the Father Himself after the judgment?And why do the 'just' need to pass through judgment if they are all receive the same glory? What purpose is the judgment?
johnny Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Fig-bearing This...,What do you mean "the just have the glory of the Father?" The glory of the Father is His.I mean they will be righteous and holy like the Father, the righteous will shine forth as the sun (see below). The "just" are those in the holy city descending out of heaven from God. Rev.21 ([10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [11] Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;)Matt.13 ([40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.)And why do the 'just' need to pass through judgment if they are all receive the same glory? What purpose is the judgment?The purpose is to separate the unjust and the just.Matt.25 ([31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: )
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,I would suggest you pray and ask God for the wisdom to these questions ... let the Spirit of truth guide you ... I will also pray for you ...I dont mean to be a pest but isnt praying and asking God a work or an action of some sort? Will this work end up being my salvation or access to grace?
johnny Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,I dont mean to be a pest but isnt praying and asking God a work or an action of some sort? Will this work end up being my salvation or access to grace?Prayer is both a gift of grace and a determined response on our part. By prayer we can discern "what is the will of God" and obtain the endurance to do it. The Spirit prompts us to act so as bear "the fruit of the Spirit" by charity in action.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,Prayer is both a gift of grace and a determined response on our part. By prayer we can discern "what is the will of God" and obtain the endurance to do it. The Spirit prompts us to act so as bear "the fruit of the Spirit" by charity in action.So does God make me pray, or do I do it all on my own with a belief that it will be answered?
Hammer Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Hammer,Those reference are consistent with what I have been saying ...You say that "works are a part", if works are part then it is NOT grace. Your belief is not consistent with scripture which reveals (see below).Rom.11 ([6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.)You need to re read what I wrote without a preconceived idea of what I am saying. It isn't part!!!! Do Not Put Words Into My Mouth! OKay?Please!
LifeOnaPlate Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,By believing and trusting the words of God ... Jesus said "thy will be done" ... Mary said "be it unto me according to thy word".That's a work.
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 10, 2008 Author Posted July 10, 2008 Fig-bearing This...,I mean they will be righteous and holy like the Father, the righteous will shine forth as the sun (see below). The "just" are those in the holy city descending out of heaven from God. Rev.21 ([10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [11] Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;)Matt.13 ([40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.)The purpose is to separate the unjust and the just.Matt.25 ([31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: )OK. I understand what you are talking about regarding the glory of the sun. So, you don't think anyone actually must stand to account for their thoughts, words, and deeds at the final judgment? It is just a time of separation?
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 10, 2008 Author Posted July 10, 2008 So does God make me pray, or do I do it all on my own with a belief that it will be answered?Also rephrased: Does God make me respond to His prompting to pray, or do I respond all on my own to His prompting to pray?
johnny Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,So does God make me pray, or do I do it all on my own with a belief that it will be answered?The Spirit prompts you to pray .... you can respond by praying or not respond to the prompting ...
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,The Spirit prompts you to pray .... you can respond by praying or not respond to the prompting ...So then it is my choice and my action if I do or dont then??
wenglund Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 wenglund,Please correct my mis-understanding,The above Mormon teachings indicate that â??we must do our partâ? and â??we must do all that the Saviour commands usâ? to live with our Heavenly Father. This indicates that we must do works in order living with our Heavenly Father. Earlier I asked â??Is God's grace enough for salvation?â? and you said â??absolutelyâ?. For me your response is different than what the Mormon Churc teaches:- Mormon Church says: we must do our part- wenglund says: grace is enoughWhat is your definition of grace â?¦ does grace involving doing our part like the Mormon Church teaches?The Bible says the following about grace and works:Rom.11([6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.Please list the questions you would like me to answer.Hi Johnny,You are evidently not paying very close attention. Either that, or you have a mental block regarding the statements I have made and the scriptures I have quoted in which I explicitely use the word "obey" or "obedience" or its cognants. Please re-read my comments a little more carefully this time, and as you do so, please make a note of each of the questions that I have asked that you have yet to answer.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
johnny Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Hammer,You need to re read what I wrote without a preconceived idea of what I am saying. It isn't part!!!! Do Not Put Words Into My Mouth! OKay?I said you said ""works are a part", below is your quote in which you clearly said what I said ...NO ONE SAYS WE SAVE OURSELVES THROUGH OUR WORKS!!! BUT THE LORD WILL JUDGE WHO WILL BE SAVED THROUGH HIS POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE WILL DECIDE UPON WHOM WILL BE SAVED-- AND HE WILL JUDGE THEM BY THEIR FRUITS AND WORKS ARE A PART OF THAT FOUNDATION FOR JUDGMENT.I WISH YOU GUYS WOULD GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS THAT IT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE TO CLAIM BEING SAVED THROUGH OUR OWN WORKS, AND SUBMITTING TO OUR GOD THROUGH OBEDIENCE /WORKS UPON OUR FAITH AND BEING JUDGED AS 'FOLLOWING' AND 'PREPARED' FOR THAT SALVATION
Zakuska Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Hammer,I said you said ""works are a part", below is your quote in which you clearly said what I said ...NO ONE SAYS WE SAVE OURSELVES THROUGH OUR WORKS!!! BUT THE LORD WILL JUDGE WHO WILL BE SAVED THROUGH HIS POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE WILL DECIDE UPON WHOM WILL BE SAVED-- AND HE WILL JUDGE THEM BY THEIR FRUITS AND WORKS ARE A PART OF THAT FOUNDATION FOR JUDGMENT.I WISH YOU GUYS WOULD GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS THAT IT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE TO CLAIM BEING SAVED THROUGH OUR OWN WORKS, AND SUBMITTING TO OUR GOD THROUGH OBEDIENCE /WORKS UPON OUR FAITH AND BEING JUDGED AS 'FOLLOWING' AND 'PREPARED' FOR THAT SALVATIONYou deny we are jugded for our works wether they be good or bad?
johnny Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 LifeOnaPlate,That's a work.Please explain how it is work, if you can please provide scriptures to support you answer.
johnny Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Fig-bearing This...,So, you don't think anyone actually must stand to account for their thoughts, words, and deeds at the final judgment? It is just a time of separation?I believe every man will be judged. I believe at the moment of death there is a particular judgment.
johnny Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...So then it is my choice and my action if I do or dont then??Every man has agency to choose ...
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...Every man has agency to choose ...So then it is my choice and action to pray then? You may if you wish use a simple yes or no. Thankyou.
johnny Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 wenglund,You are evidently not paying very close attention. Either that, or you have a mental block regarding the statements I have made and the scriptures I have quoted in which I explicitely use the word "obey" or "obedience" or its cognants.I am not following you, to help be better understand what your points are please explain it in a different manner. We come from different backgrounds and I am simply not following you.Please re-read my comments a little more carefully this time, and as you do so, please make a note of each of the questions that I have asked that you have yet to answer.It is easier if you simply just list the questions that you want me to answer ... thanks.
Zakuska Posted July 10, 2008 Posted July 10, 2008 What us the end of those who don't obey the Gospel?1 Pet. 4: 1717 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
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