Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?

Aquilifer · July 9, 2008

This editorial represents the opinion of The Daily Universe editorial board. Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of BYU, its administration or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

I most interesting thing about the BYU article that I noted and the Fair article you referenced is that they BOTH deny any official position for the Church in the fine print at the bottom. How do you know which one is right and which one is wrong?
Why bother reading either article if both deny any "official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice."?

Billy, do you have the faintest idea what an op-ed article is?

I am not bound to the opinions offered by a 20-something BYU student in the Daily Universe, no matter how much your ilk insist that we all march in lockstep.

Nor, might I add, is the LDS Church.

:crazy: :fool: :crazy: :beatdeadhorse:

furii · July 9, 2008

Fig-bearing This...,
There ARE NOT different kingdoms for the saved. The more obedient DO NOT receive a different kingdom than the less obedient.
After Final Judgment all the saved have the glory of the Father and will live with our Heavenly Father. At the resurrection there are only two kinds of people, the unjust and "the just". All men will be resurrected and stand before God in judgment, all "the just" will live with the Heavenly Father in His Kindgom.

LOLZ CFR.

Lightbearer · July 9, 2008

Lightbearer,
The thing you must do is accept God's grace.

The question is how do you accept God's grace? Do you do it by disobedience or obedience? Is not accepting His grace making His will become our will? Is not this obedience? You try to pretend that the requirement of obedience denies the grace of God, I say it does not. In fact that is at the heart and soul of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is for us to accept the grace of Christ through our surrendering our will to His will. Come follow me is what Christ said. How do we follow Him if we do not follow His example?

Hebrews 5:8-9 does not say "in everything", it simply says "obey him".

That must be the most pathetic defense of a point of view I have ever witnessed. Obey him means to obey Him, and you are quibbling about "in everything"! That is laughable and is really unworthy of you. I can tell you are getting desperate in defense of your position.

What I said is consistent with scripture, scripture says,
Matt.25 ([21] His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. [22] He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. [23] His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. [24] Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: [25] And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. [26] His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: [27] Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. [28] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. [29] For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. [30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.)

I think this very parable shows the need for obedience and how it is directly linked to our salvation and exaltation.

Your are missing the point, it says "done good" and those "done evil" (John 5:28). We show our faith by our works (James 2:18). We are not saved according to our works, but according to his purpose and grace (see 2Tim 1 below).
Jas.2 ([18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.)
2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,)

No unfortunately you have so much at stake by your "grace alone" position that you are blinded to the very scriptures you quote. We show faith BY OUR WORKS! How much plainer does it need to be? As for 2 Timothy 1:9, I think Paul is referencing to the calling of Apostle which he was called to in spite of his being an enemy and a persecutor of the Church, God called him according to His own purpose and grace... if Paul had not repented and changed his course he would not have been called as an apostle.

The point is that he is talking about being unmarried for the kingdom of God.
I have addressed the issue of "God commanded Adam and Eve" many times in my earlier posts. Scripture clearly says it is is a blessing, scripture does not reference it as a commandment. If it was a commandment then the words of Jesus and Paul to the unmarried would not be consistent with the Book of Genesis.

I guess that is a good excuse as any, I guess when God says to "Multiply" he had no reference to marriage.

In 1John 3:1-8 you are missing the obvious words "every man that hath this hope in him" ... he purifies himself because the man has "hope".
Of course we have to endure to the end, this does not change we are saved by grace through faith.

Now we are getting somewhere! Of course we are saved by grace through faith and it is not of ourselves it is the gift of God... unto all those who obey Him!

James 2:14-16 is consistent with I am saying. We should be "doers of the word" as James 1 indicates. The Book of Mormon teaches "after all we can do" in regards to being saved. The Book of Mormon is not consistent with what the Bible reveals, the Bible clearly reveals "Not of works" (see Eph 2 below)

So how is what you are saying consistent with what James is teaching? He is teaching faith through our obedience to Christ's commandments. Which is much like the following:

(Matthew 7:21-27) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."

If this does not teach that obedience is necessary for salvation I do not know what does.

And to finally shut you up from your accusations against the Book of Mormon I quote in context the "offensive passage" to you:

(2 Nephi 25:19-29) "For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God. And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also gave him power that he should smite the rock and the water should come forth; yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved. Wherefore, for this cause hath the Lord God promised unto me that these things which I write shall be kept and preserved, and handed down unto my seed, from generation to generation, that the promise may be fulfilled unto Joseph, that his seed should never perish as long as the earth should stand. Wherefore, these things shall go from generation to generation as long as the earth shall stand; and they shall go according to the will and pleasure of God; and the nations who shall possess them shall be judged of them according to the words which are written. For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled. For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments. And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away. And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law. And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out."

This shows plainly the meaning of those words, "after all we can do" is not the means of our salvation, only that it is necessary to fulfill the commandments. We must be reconciled to God and we must endure to the end. Our salvation is because of the grace of Christ, not our works... but those works are necessary in order to become reconciled to God. If there had been no atonement of Christ there would be no salvation or exaltation. No resurrection or eternal life. No Church, no priesthood, no ordinances, no prophets or apostles. So please desist from saying that we do not believe the atonement is "enough" that is an excuse to deny the need for obedience after we are reconciled to God through the atonement of Christ. I quote one more that sums up the "Mormon" position:

(Moroni 10:32-33) "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

johnny · July 9, 2008

Lightbearer,

The question is how do you accept God's grace? Do you do it by disobedience or obedience? Is not accepting His grace making His will become our will? Is not this obedience? You try to pretend that the requirement of obedience denies the grace of God, I say it does not. In fact that is at the heart and soul of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is for us to accept the grace of Christ through our surrendering our will to His will. Come follow me is what Christ said. How do we follow Him if we do not follow His example?

We accept Godâ??s grace by faith. We are saved by grace through faith, it is NOT through obedience.

That must be the most pathetic defense of a point of view I have ever witnessed. Obey him means to obey Him, and you are quibbling about "in everything"! That is laughable and is really unworthy of you. I can tell you are getting desperate in defense of your position

.

What you said is simply not consistent with what scripture says, again Heb 5:8-9 does not say â??everythingâ? like you said. Heb 5:8-9 does not make your point.

No unfortunately you have so much at stake by your "grace alone" position that you are blinded to the very scriptures you quote. We show faith BY OUR WORKS! How much plainer does it need to be? As for 2 Timothy 1:9, I think Paul is referencing to the calling of Apostle which he was called to in spite of his being an enemy and a persecutor of the Church, God called him according to His own purpose and grace... if Paul had not repented and changed his course he would not have been called as an apostle.

2Tim 1:9 is clear we are saved not according to our works, you are blinded by the Mormon doctrine of â??after all we can doâ?.

I guess that is a good excuse as any, I guess when God says to "Multiply" he had no reference to marriage.

â??Multiplyâ? has reference to marriage. Both Jesus and Paul speak of being unmarried for those who can accept this gift of God.

Now we are getting somewhere! Of course we are saved by grace through faith and it is not of ourselves it is the gift of God... unto all those who obey Him!

Which verse says â??... unto all those who obey Him!â??

Clearly 1John 3:1-8 is speaking of hope, it NOT speaking of obedience.

So how is what you are saying consistent with what James is teaching? He is teaching faith through our obedience to Christ's commandments. Which is much like the following

:

James 2:14-16 is consistent with what I am saying. The faithful are â??doers of the wordâ?, the faithful â??doeth the will of my Fatherâ?.

If this does not teach that obedience is necessary for salvation I do not know what does.

You say obedience is necessary for salvation. Your words are contrary to what the Bible reveals, the Bible reveals God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and believe of the truth (2Thes 2:13). The disciples of Christ believe, see Acts 15 below:

Acts.15 ([11] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they)

This shows plainly the meaning of those words, "after all we can do" is not the means of our salvation, only that it is necessary to fulfill the commandments. We must be reconciled to God and we must endure to the end. Our salvation is because of the grace of Christ, not our works... but those works are necessary in order to become reconciled to God. If there had been no atonement of Christ there would be no salvation or exaltation. No resurrection or eternal life. No Church, no priesthood, no ordinances, no prophets or apostles. So please desist from saying that we do not believe the atonement is "enough" that is an excuse to deny the need for obedience after we are reconciled to God through the atonement of Christ. I quote one more that sums up the "Mormon" position:

Thank you for making my point, you say â??works are necessary in order to become reconciled to Godâ?. Clearly your words reveal that the atonement is not enough.

The Bible clearly reveals we are saved by grace through faith, it is not works. The Book of Mormon is not consistent with what the Bible reveals because it adds the words â??after all we can doâ? to how we are saved.

Lightbearer · July 9, 2008

Lightbearer,
Which verse says â??... unto all those who obey Him!â??

I can see that it is impossible to have a rational discussion with you. But I will answer this one question and then agree to disagree with you on the point that obedience is necessary to salvation. Here it is:

(Hebrews 5:8 ) "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Is that not english, or are you incapable of acknowledging the obvious? OBEY HIM! Who are we to obey? The only legitimate argument you have is with what we must obey or what defines that obedience! But you cannot change the fact that it does say we must obey Christ in order for Christ to become the author of our eternal salvation!

He that hath ears to hear let him hear...

johnny · July 9, 2008

furii,

Fig-bearing This...,
There ARE NOT different kingdoms for the saved. The more obedient DO NOT receive a different kingdom than the less obedient.
After Final Judgment all the saved have the glory of the Father and will live with our Heavenly Father. At the resurrection there are only two kinds of people, the unjust and "the just". All men will be resurrected and stand before God in judgment, all "the just" will live with the Heavenly Father in His Kindgom.
LOLZ CFR.

Here are the references ...

Before the Final Judgment there are two groups of people, the unjust and â??justâ? (Acts 24:15; John 5:29). The righteous inherit the kingdom and the cursed go away into everlasting punishement (Matt 25:31-26). After Final Judgment the â??justâ? dwell with God the Father and have the glory of God (Rev 21:1-11). In the end, the Son deliverers up his kingdom to God the Father (1Cor 15:24).

Acts.24 ([15] And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.)
John.5 ([29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.)
Matt.25 ([31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: [32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. [34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal)
Heb.12 ([23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,)
Rev.21 ([1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. [7] He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son [10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, [11] Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; .)
1Cor.15 ([24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.)

johnny · July 9, 2008

Lightbearer,

Is that not english, or are you incapable of acknowledging the obvious? OBEY HIM! Who are we to obey? The only legitimate argument you have is with what we must obey or what defines that obedience! But you cannot change the fact that it does say we must obey Christ in order for Christ to become the author of our eternal salvation!
He that hath ears to hear let him hear...

Christ is the author of salvation to all those obey him. God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2Thes 2:13). God has NOT chosen us to salvation through obedience.

The disciples of Christ obey his commandments, the disciples of Christ do not need to obey the Mormon commandment to marry to have eternal life with our Heavenly Father because this commandment is not from Christ.

wenglund · July 9, 2008

wenglund,
1Thes 2:13 reveals God has chosen us to salvation, salvation comes from grace. Love and faith are the fruit of the Spirit. Love and faith are NOT our fruit. We show our faith by our works. God has saved us NOT according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace (see 2Tim 1 below). 1Thes 2:13 reveals it is NOT through obedience it is through "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".
2Tim.1 ([7] For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. [9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,)
2Thes.2 ([13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: )
Why does the restored Mormon gospel found in the Book of Mormon pervert th gospel of Christ by adding the words "after all we can do"?

Your question presuppose something that is false, and thus cannot be logically answered as asked.

Is the work of Jesus through the atonement enough for salvation?

Of course--particularly when one understands that Christ works through his disciples and chosen leaders unto salvation. Their works of righteousness are his works. When we obey his will in love and keep his commandments, he is working through us to conform us to his likeness unto salvation (see my previous posts for scriptural documentation)

Is santification of the Spirit and belief of the truth enough for salvation?

Sure--particularly when one understands that the sanctification of the Spirit comes by way of obedience unto salvation: "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit."(1 Pet 1:22)

Is God's grace enough for salvation?

Absolutely--particularly when one understand that it is through the grace of God that we are able to obediently do works of righteousness unto salvation: "so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 5:21) "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obeyâ??whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." (Rom 6:15-18)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

wenglund · July 9, 2008

Christ is the author of salvation to all those obey him.

Is Christ the author of salvation to those who do not obey him?

If not, then doesn't that tell you that salvation is conditioned upon obedience? (Hint: the logical answer is: "Yes, obviously!")

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Zakuska · July 9, 2008

Is Christ the author of salvation to those who do not obey him?
If not, then doesn't that tell you that salvation is conditioned upon obedience? (Hint: the logical answer is: "Yes, obviously!")
Thanks, -Wade Englund-

But wade... who ever said Johnny is Logical? (the term irrational comes to mind)

Lightbearer · July 9, 2008

Lightbearer,
Christ is the author of salvation to all those obey him. God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2Thes 2:13). God has NOT chosen us to salvation through obedience.

What does that really mean? How can we obey Christ if we do not obey His commandments? So you say God has "chosen us to salvation" does that mean we do not have agency? Is not believing doing??? The "devils believe and tremble" so you are not being very clear here. Is not believing in the atonement of Jesus Christ obedience to God? Is not repentance obedience to the call to repent? Is not baptism obedience to the command to be baptized? How can the spirit sanctify us if we have not repented and continue in sin? Is not enduring to the end (as you already said was necessary) not obedience?

The disciples of Christ obey his commandments, the disciples of Christ do not need to obey the Mormon commandment to marry to have eternal life with our Heavenly Father because this commandment is not from Christ.

That is a statement of opinion, you say the "Mormon commandment to marry to have eternal life" is not needed. I say that the commandment to marry IS a commandment of Christ. If a Prophet or Apostle speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost it is the same as if Christ spoke it. So it really matters not if you do not believe Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God and a witness of Jesus Christ... if he was (and I say he was) then the "commandment to marry" is just as valid as if Christ had personally said it while in the flesh.

Now let me put together the picture for you:

(2 Nephi 31:10-20) "And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptismâ??yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel. But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me. And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved. Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive. And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."

That sums it all up as far as I am concerned.

Mola Ram Suda Ram · July 9, 2008

Lightbearer,
Christ is the author of salvation to all those obey him. God has chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (2Thes 2:13). God has NOT chosen us to salvation through obedience.

Thanks Johnny in other words

You dont need good works that isnt what saves you, but good works are a product of salvation but if I dont have good works then I am not saved so you do need good works but they arent required for salvation but they are a product........................

Zakuska · July 9, 2008

Thanks Johnny in other words
You dont need good works that isnt what saves you, but good works are a product of salvation but if I dont have good works then I am not saved so you do need good works but they arent required for salvation but they are a product........................

Why does Johhny remind me of Luca?!

Luca: Hey, boss, it's Lenny - he was wearing a disguise so we wouldn't recognise him, but he's not wearing a disguise, so we DO recognise him! ...