Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Zakuska,

Which of those verse commands us to marry like the Mormon Church does?

The Mormon Gospel Principles says "". . . each of us has been commanded to marry and have children so that through our own experience we can learn to be heavenly parents." (see link below):

Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 36

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-46,00.html

We should walk in love, Paul is not saying that we should walk in the commandments that the Mormon Church teaches.

Clearing scripture says "blessing" ...he gave the blessing to the whales also.

That's easy. The term "Mormon Church" didn't exist is Paul's time. No one would therefore expect him to use that term.

God hasn't commanded you to marry, Johnny. The commandment only applies to members of the LDS Church.

Again, which of the commandments which you recognize, can be categorized as "obedience not necessary" in order to dwell with God.

[Lightbearer]

Lightbearer,

If we are a servant of God then we will be like Christ and say "thy will be done". It is our choice to do his will or to do our will. If we keep his commandments, we shall abide in his love, without him we can do nothing.

Nobody said we could do anything without Christ, that is a straw-man that you insist on building out of nothing but Anti-Mormon gibberish. When our will becomes "one" with God then that is when we attain to a state of salvation. We put off the natural man through the atonement of Christ, I realize you despise the Book of Mormon that you will not admit that it is a correct teaching but nevertheless it is true.

The disciples of Christ keep Jesus' commandments, Jesus did NOT command his disciples to marry and have children like the Mormon Church commands. Mormon disciples obey Mormon commands.

Mormons are the disciples of Jesus Christ, I am really sick of you sneering attitude. D&C 131 is just as much a revelation of Jesus Christ as anything in the Bible.

The Mormon faith is different than the faith of Christ's apostles. Christ's apostles taught "by grace are ye saved through faith". The Mormon faith perverts this teaching by adding the words "after all we can do".

No the "Mormon faith" is the same faith of Christ's apostles, in fact we have living apostles today. And it was the great and abominable Church that perverted the Bible and the Gospel in the first place, that is why it had to be restored by Jesus Christ Himself. Those words "after all we can do" are the words of Christ, you may not agree but they are His words. In fact is He not saying the same thing here?

(Luke 6:46-49) "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great."

Me thinks you protest too much...

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Zakuska,

Which of those verse commands us to marry like the Mormon Church does?

And God commanded Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth, tell me When was that commandment lifted?

The Mormon Gospel Principles says "". . . each of us has been commanded to marry and have children so that through our own experience we can learn to be heavenly parents." (see link below):

Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 36

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-46,00.html

yeah and, I think the LDs position is a little stronger than your assertion. Were did God not Command us to multiply and replenish the earth Johnny?

We should walk in love, Paul is not saying that we should walk in the commandments that the Mormon Church teaches.

Clearing scripture says "blessing" ...he gave the blessing to the whales also.

And what does walking in love mean Johnny? What commandments are we to walk in?

[Zakuska]

Johhny,

What where the first 2 commandments God gave MAN?

Gen 2

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18

[johnny]

Fig-bearing This...,

But if your definition of grace is correct that God and God alone saves, and no act of ourselves can be involved or it isn't grace, then we truly don't have any free will at all.

Scripture says the following,

2Tim.1 ([7] For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. [9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,)

God hasn't commanded you to marry, Johnny. The commandment only applies to members of the LDS Church.

So marriage is a Mormon commandment, not a commandment for Christ's disciples.

Again, which of the commandments which you recognize, can be categorized as "obedience not necessary" in order to dwell with God.

Marriage is not necessary to dwell with God the Father after Final Judgment.

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

And God commanded Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth, tell me When was that commandment lifted?

It was a blessing not a commandment, see Gen 1 below:

Gen.1 ([21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.)

And what does walking in love mean Johnny? What commandments are we to walk in?

It means abiding in the words of Christ. We are to walk in the commandments of Jesus (see below for the commandments).

1John.3 (23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.)

[Zakuska]

Johhny... God commanded man to cleave unto his wife and become one flesh.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

[We are to walk in the commandments of Jesus (see below for the commandments).1John.3 (23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.)

And what happens if we dont walk in his commandments? What does it mean to walk in His commandments?Are not Commandments blessings?

Johhny... God commanded man to cleave unto his wife and become one flesh.

Johnny"No the bible teaches nothing like what mormonism teaches, we dont need to be married."

[ebeddoulos]

Was there tithing in the New Testament church after Christ died?

The members were encouraged to give with a cheerful heart

At one point the church in Judea had all things in common

But specifically was tithing ever required or spoken about?

The reason that I stipulated that after Christ died, because prior to his death they were still under the law, thus were required to tithe.

Some people, like you for example, say that tithing is part of the Law of Moses and therefore not subject to New Testament obedience. They are incorrect in their assessment. It is true that the Law of Moses incorporated and formalized the practice of tithing.

â??And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.â? (Leviticus 27:30-32)

However, tithing was practiced for centuries before the advent of the Law of Moses. For example, Abraham paid his tithes to Melchizedek several centuries before Moses received the Law.

â??And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.â? (Genesis 14:18-20)

When Abrahamâ??s grandson, Jacob left his homeland, he vowed to serve God and in addition he vowed: "of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.â?

â??And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.â? (Genesis 28:20-22)

Look at Jacob's life to see the result of faithfully paying tithing his whole life. When Jacob returned to his homeland and to his brother Esau he was very worried. He did not know how his brother would take his return. He divided his flocks and people into two bands so that if Esau slaughtered the one, the other could escape. In addition he gave Esau a very generous gift.

â??And he lodged there that same night; and took of that which came to his hand a present for Esau his brother; Two hundred she goats, and twenty he goats, two hundred ewes, and twenty rams, Thirty milch camels with their colts, forty kine, and ten bulls, twenty she asses, and ten foals. And he delivered them into the hand of his servants, every drove by themselves; and said unto his servants, Pass over before me, and put a space betwixt drove and drove. And he commanded the foremost, saying, When Esau my brother meeteth thee, and asketh thee, saying, Whose art thou? and whither goest thou? and whose are these before thee? Then thou shalt say, They be thy servant Jacob's; it is a present sent unto my lord Esau: and, behold, also he is behind us.â? (Genesis 32:13-20)

When Esau refused it, Jacob pressed him to take it saying, â??God hath dealt graciously with me.â? As you can see from the record, Jacob spoke honestly for God had truly blessed him. Why? Because Jacob gave â??the tenth untoâ? God.

â??Take, I pray thee, my blessing that is brought to thee; because God hath dealt graciously with me, and because I have enough. And he urged him, and he took it.â? (Genesis 33:11)

In saying that tithing is not a New Testament requirement, they overlook that our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ taught the principle of tithing. In both Matthew and Luke, it is recorded that while teaching mercy, faith and the love of God, that Jesus still emphasized that he expected them â??to not to leave the other (tithing) undoneâ?.

â??Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.â? (Matthew 23:23)
â??But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.â? (Luke 11:42)

The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is Paul's justification of Christ having the high or the Melchizadek Priesthood. It revolves around the paying of tithes. before and after othe introduction of theLaw of Moses.

Just as important, modern prophets have received and reiterated the command to pay tithing.

"And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord. Verily I say unto you, it shall come to pass that all those who gather unto the land of aZion shall be tithed of their surplus properties, and shall observe this law, or they shall not be found worthy to abide among you." (D&C 119: 3-5)

Tithing was a commandment before, during and after the Law of Moses. The early members of the church practiced it and it is still a commandment for us. But it is a commandment with a blessing promised for obedience. Through the prophet Malachi, God promised the tithe payer that he would open â??â?¦the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it â?¦â?

â??Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.â? (Malachi 3:10-11)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So can I be saved if I willfully disobey God?

Anyone?

If not why not?

Anyone?

[Billy]

Some people, like you for example, say that tithing is part of the Law of Moses and therefore not subject to New Testament obedience. They are incorrect in their assessment. It is true that the Law of Moses incorporated and formalized the practice of tithing.

• 
  

However, tithing was practiced for centuries before the advent of the Law of Moses.

So was animal sacrifice, so are you proposing that we continue with that practice as well?

[Zakuska]

So was animal sacrifice, so are you proposing that we continue with that practice as well?

Why would we get rid of the sacrament?

1 Cor 11

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

Animal Sacrifice is with us to this very day... its just manifest in a different way. So then why would we get rid of tithing when animal sacrifice is still with us?

[Billy]

Why would we get rid of the sacrament?

Animal Sacrifice is with us to this very day... its just manifest in a different way. So then why would we get rid of tithing when animal sacrifice is still with us?

You are equating Christ's sacrifice with animal sacrifice? Whoa! Duck!

[Zakuska]

You are equating Christ's sacrifice with animal sacrifice? Whoa! Duck!

Aaaa... Billy... why did Abraham sacrifice Isaac and then when the Lord stopped him, provided a RAM?

I think you need to go read your old testament and see what all those Animal Sacrifices represented.

A lamb without blemish, and all...

[Swords99]

What is the definition of Grace? Its God's unmerited favor. If we must do works in order to be "saved", then it isn't God's grace; its man's efforts. Christians do good works because they are saved; not in order to get saved. Therein lies the difference.

[Zakuska]

What is the definition of Grace? Its God's unmerited favor. If we must do works in order to be "saved", then it isn't God's grace; its man's efforts. Christians do good works because they are saved; not in order to get saved. Therein lies the difference.

So then explain why Peter suggested just the opposite.

2 Peter 1 - Make your calling and election sure.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What is the definition of Grace? Its God's unmerited favor. If we must do works in order to be "saved", then it isn't God's grace; its man's efforts. Christians do good works because they are saved; not in order to get saved. Therein lies the difference.

So you are advocating that no works are required for salvation.What if I dont do good works? Am I still saved? What is required for Gods Grace?

Aaaa... Billy... why did Abraham sacrifice Isaac and then when the Lord stopped him, provided a RAM?I think you need to go read your old testament and see what all those Animal Sacrifices represented. A lamb without blemish, and all...

Whoa!!! Pooned!!!

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

And what happens if we dont walk in his commandments? What does it mean to walk in His commandments?Are not Commandments blessings?

Those who are not merciful go away into everlasting punishment. To walk in his commandment is to love one another.

So can I be saved if I willfully disobey God?

We shall be judged on our love.

So you are advocating that no works are required for salvation.What if I dont do good works? Am I still saved? What is required for Gods Grace?

At the end of the world, the wicked are cast into the lake of fire with the devil.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

Those who are not merciful go away into everlasting punishment. To walk in his commandment is to love one another.

We shall be judged on our love.

At the end of the world, the wicked are cast into the lake of fire with the devil.

Does love = works? If not why not.

It sounds like I need love to be saved. Faith if it have not love is dead?

I thought all I needed was Grace, now your telling me I need Love. I dont get it.

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

Does love = works? If not why not.

It is not our works, love is God working in us, see Phil 2 below,

Phil.2 ([13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.)

It sounds like I need love to be saved. Faith if it have not love is dead?

Faith that does not work by love is dead, see Gal 5 below,

Gal.5 ([6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.)

I thought all I needed was Grace, now your telling me I need Love. I dont get it.

Love is a grace from God, the fruit of the spirit is love, see Gal 5 below,

Gal.5 ([22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

It is not our works, love is God working in us, see Phil 2 below,

Phil.2 ([13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.)

Faith that does not work by love is dead, see Gal 5 below,

Gal.5 ([6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.)

Love is a grace from God, the fruit of the spirit is love, see Gal 5 below,

Gal.5 ([22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love)

So what your saying is that if I have love then God is the one that is doing it and I have no say in the matter now? So people that have love must be saved?

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

So what your saying is that if I have love then God is the one that is doing it and I have no say in the matter now? So people that have love must be saved?

You have a say in the matter because you have free will. We are saved according to his mercy, by grace we are saved through faith. The disciples of Christ believe the following,

Acts.15 ([11] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they)

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

You have a say in the matter because you have free will. We are saved according to his mercy, by grace we are saved through faith. The disciples of Christ believe the following,

Acts.15 ([11] But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they)

So then it is settled, you do need works to show that you are saved??

[ebeddoulos]

So was animal sacrifice, so are you proposing that we continue with that practice as well?

That is really one pathetic attempt at refutation. As you should know, the scriptures specifically state that Christ is the great and final sacrifice.

â??For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice. Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay. But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world. Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away. And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.â? (Alma 34:10-14)

The scriptures do not specifically make tithing a thing of the past. Unless you can specifically prove me wrong, your argument fails. The operative word is specifically.

Also can you specifically prove that Jesus Christ is the final sacrifice from the Bible or are you relying on specious arguments for that as well? In short prove it.

[Tanyan]

What is the definition of Grace? Its God's unmerited favor. If we must do works in order to be "saved", then it isn't God's grace; its man's efforts. Christians do good works because they are saved; not in order to get saved. Therein lies the difference.

Sword99, Yes the definition of Grace [Charis] is "Unmerited Favor", but how does one access and make alive that "Grace" in one's Temporal/Spiritual life ?, Through Faith ["Pistis"] which activates that Awesome Grace in ones Temporal/Spiritual Life.

Actualy Christians should do good works because they Love The LORD and want to show that they want to remain Saved in the Covenant that they entered in when they accepted Jesus Christ as there Lord of Life/Lord/Savior/God/King/Master of there life. Our works of Faith, and Labors Of Love [ 1 Thess 1:3] are our way of showing and saying thank you for what was done in Gethsemane and Golgotha for us. Work we must but the Lunch is Free 2 Nephi 2:4.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.