Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Let's change the old grace / works debate for a moment, and phrase it another way. Rather than asking "what saves us", I want to ask what can we do without and still be saved.

1. Can a person do without God's grace and still be saved? I think all Christians agree--NO.

2. Can a person do without obedience and still be saved? I wonder who will say yes.

Grace alone cannot save us. It requires a free and willing heart before God's grace has any affect at all on us.

[howller]

2. Can a person do without obedience and still be saved? I wonder who will say yes.

Grace alone cannot save us. It requires a free and willing heart before God's grace has any affect at all on us.

LDS doctrine really promises a universal salvation, with "sons of perdition" being cast into outer darkness numbering merely a handful. The remainder of mankind will all be saved into a kingdom of glory. Indeed, ultimately every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

[ebeddoulos]

My understanding of Biblical doctrine says that Death = Faith â?? Works

â??But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?â? (James 2:20)

I am under the impression that Grace = Faith + Works.

â??For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.â? (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Iâ??m sure you also know that we are judged by our works

â??And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.â? (Revelation 20:12)

In other words, for me Grace is Faith with a lunchbox.

[Phinehas]

Let's change the old grace / works debate for a moment, and phrase it another way. Rather than asking "what saves us", I want to ask what can we do without and still be saved.

1. Can a person do without God's grace and still be saved? I think all Christians agree--NO.

2. Can a person do without obedience and still be saved? I wonder who will say yes.

Grace alone cannot save us. It requires a free and willing heart before God's grace has any affect at all on us.

This sounds like you are saying that we have to "earn" God's grace?

If so, it is not grace but a pay off of a debt.

I think you need to define Grace first.

Grace is getting what you DO NOT deserve.

Justice, is getting just what you deserve.

Mercy is NOT getting what you do deserve

Grace is like getting rewarded when you messed up terribly at work.

[Flyonthewall]

This sounds like you are saying that we have to "earn" God's grace?

If so, it is not grace but a pay off of a debt.

I think you need to define Grace first.

Grace is getting what you DO NOT deserve.

Justice, is getting just what you deserve.

Mercy is NOT getting what you do deserve

Grace is like getting rewarded when you messed up terribly at work.

I would say, grace is what magnifies our works to the level whereby we can "earn" salvation. Our own works will not amount to our own salvation(so we don't really earn it by ourselves), it is the Grace of God, that bridges the gap. Therefore we are saved by grace, after all we can do.

[coolrok7]

I would say, grace is what magnifies our works to the level whereby we can "earn" salvation. Our own works will not amount to our own salvation(so we don't really earn it by ourselves), it is the Grace of God, that bridges the gap. Therefore we are saved by grace, after all we can do.

That is the error of Mormonism where Joseph adds the phrase after all we can do to Ephesians 2:8-10 in the BOM:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

This sounds like you are saying that we have to "earn" God's grace? If so, it is not grace but a pay off of a debt. I think you need to define Grace first. Grace is getting what you DO NOT deserve. Justice, is getting just what you deserve. Mercy is NOT getting what you do deserve Grace is like getting rewarded when you messed up terribly at work.

Are you speaking tongue in cheek? Because this last sentence of yours doesn't make sense to me.I don't agree with your definition, obviously.How can grace be a gift if it is forced upon those who never asked for it by their own free will?

That is the error of Mormonism where Joseph adds the phrase after all we can do to Ephesians 2:8-10 in the BOM:

So, do you believe a person can be saved without obedience?

[Zakuska]

Heb. 5: 9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Sure sounds like Obedience is required to me. No Obedience no "Eternal Salvation".

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

That is the error of Mormonism where Joseph adds the phrase after all we can do to Ephesians 2:8-10 in the BOM:

So do you believe a person can be saved "without" obedience?

Heb. 5: 9 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Sure sounds like Obedience is required to me. No Obedience no "Eternal Salvation".

Thanks.Sounds like we can't be saved "in" our sins. Obedience cannot be seen as unnecessary to salvation.

[ebeddoulos]

That is the error of Mormonism where Joseph adds the phrase after all we can do to Ephesians 2:8-10 in the BOM:

Joseph did not add anything. Evangelicals just overlook the obvious. Why is that? Why is it that Evangelicals forget to emphasise verse 10?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

If you gave all the verses in that proof text equal emphasis you would recognise that works alone will not get you into heaven. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is required for that. But you should also recognise that come judgement day, faith without works may just keep you out. If you donâ??t understand that, you are only fooling yourselves. To quote from Tyndale's version:

"And se that ye be doars of the worde and not hearers only deceavinge youre awne selves with sophistrie" (James 1:22)

It sounds like you are trying to fool yourself. If you are that is one slippery slope on which you are treading. That said, I should give you credit. You at least have half an understanding.

[Mesenja]

Let's change the old grace / works debate for a moment, and phrase it another way. Rather than asking "what saves us",I want to ask what can we do without and still be saved.

1. Can a person do without God's grace and still be saved? I think all Christians agree--NO.

2. Can a person do without obedience and still be saved? I wonder who will say yes.

Grace alone cannot save us. It requires a free and willing heart before God's grace has any affect at all on us.

To teach that obedience to God's law is unnecessary must make the devil happy.

[Hammer]

2 Nephi 10:

23 Therefore, cheer up your hearts, and remember that ye are free to act for yourselvesâ??to choose the way of everlasting death or the way of eternal life.

24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

25 Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine. Amen.

[furii]

We are saved by grace, but that grace is given after a judgment. We are judged by our works. To believe anything else is to believe that God arbitrarily decides who is saved and who isn't.

If you thinks works has nothing to do with it, by what standard are we judged?

[Tanyan]

That is the error of Mormonism where Joseph adds the phrase after all we can do to Ephesians 2:8-10 in the BOM:

Why does coolrok not cross reference 2 Nephi 25:23 with Alma 24:11 ?. What is all we can do ?. In Context it is speaking of the Law of Moses but that scripture being Christianized for our day it fits well with Alma 24:11.

And why does coolrok not give the Biblical/Cultural meaning of the Greek word for "Faith" ?, and how Grace is acccessed and made alive in an individuals life ?, because it would support the LDS position and not the standard EV position . Faith [ A gift from GOD] is a work we activate to bless us and the lives of others.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Hammer]

Why does coolrok not cross reference 2 Nephi 25:23 with Alma 24:11 ?. What is all we can do ?. In Context it is speaking of the Law of Moses but that scripture being Christianized for our day it fits well with Alma 24:11.

And why does coolrok not give the Biblical/Cultural meaning of the Greek word for "Faith" ?, and how Grace is acccessed and made alive in an individuals life ?, because it would support the LDS position and not the standard EV position . Faith [ A gift from GOD] is a work we activate to bless us and the lives of others.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Nice job. I think they just need to prayfully read the Book of Mormon before they think they are educated enough on its context to start something.

[Tanyan]

And hows about Rom 1:5. 10:16, Heb 11:8, 1 Pet 4:17 ?.

[Earl]

Regarding faith, works, and obedience ...

Neither the EV "grace alone" position, nor our contemporary LDS teachings on the efficacy of these forces to bring about salvation and divine merit carry the day with me.

In the end, it is who we are and who we have become that matters to the Lord.

In my opinion, LDS good works and covenant keeping must transform the soul to be of any consequence to divine will. (Your mileage may vary.)

I worry that our ever increasing exhortations regarding strict obedience and pious works do not invigorate the â??natural manâ?. On the one hand, those who sincerely struggle (often desperately) with lifelong or nagging weaknesses are offered little hope, and, on the other hand, those who triumph in LDS worthiness may likely become silently prideful.

If a personâ??s faith makes him or her whole â?? fine. If by works, then thatâ??s okay as well.

Earl

[groove]

The issues with this discussion rest on a couple of misunderstandings. The first is that the LDS views of atonement, salvation, and sanctification are so much more expansive and nuanced than that found in evangelical Protestant theology. Fig-bearing Thistle is equivocating in his first post and leaves the terms ambiguous. It is somewhat difficult to compare apples to apples with more traditional Christian theology because of these nuances, and we have to rely on approximations to convey richness using this limited traditional vocabulary.

However, using these approximations, salvation -- meaning rescue from death and pains of hell -- in LDS thought is much more based on grace than it is on personal merit. It is by grace that we are transformed and "made perfect" (D&C 93 and 76). There is no obedience required for resurrection (salvation both from physical death and the maladies of the body/mind which might otherwise preclude righteousness), we didn't have to do anything to have Adam's transgression and its potential effects on us and particularly our infants who die early (Mor 8:20) nullified. We don't have to do anything to reap the benefits of the atonement which make us personally "free" and give us the capacity to choose good and evil -- a choice we would not otherwise have (2 Nephi 2). So basically, in LDS thought, unmerited grace through the atonement allows us to overcome things we arenâ??t responsible for (Adam's transgression, our own mental frailties and incapacity, etc.), serves as an enabling power for us to overcome what we are responsible for, satisfies justice, and satisfies mercy. It is only when we begin to discuss the many mansions within the kingdom of heaven that we encounter a direct correlation with degrees of obedience, and even there, grace is the driving force behind our actions towrds those ends. In short, "Salvation" is a process of personal transformation into beings of glory in LDS thought, and we sell ourselves short by reducing our veritable symphony into the binary terms of traditional Christiandom.

As an aside, personally, I have always read the "after all that we can do" to mean "despite" all that we can do (i.e. after all we can do, it is still not enough). This makes more intuitive sense to me in the context of the rest of the things we believe.

[Billy]

2. Can a person do without obedience and still be saved? I wonder who will say yes.

Can you be saved by obeying some of the commandments?

What percentage of the commandments do you need to obey for exaltation? 50-60-70---100%?

What if "all that I can do" is only obeying 20%, is that ok if thats really all I can do?

Can I be exalted if I don't pay tithing?

Can I be exalted if I don't obey the Word of Wisdom?

Can I be exalted if I don't attend weekly church services?

"What assures one of exaltaion" according to Spencer W Kimball in the quote below?

Miracle of Forgiveness page 208-209

"Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.

This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48.) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal."

[groove]

More equivocation. Protestant Evangelical "salvation" does not share identity with LDS "eternal life" or "exaltation." You are taking what was intended for and understood by an LDS audience and then trying to shoehorn this out of context into your own theology.

It jes don't fit buster.

[Billy]

Protestant Evangelical "salvation" does not share identity with LDS "eternal life" or "exaltation."

You can say that again!

You are taking what was intended for and understood by an LDS audience and then trying to shoehorn this out of context into your own theology.

My own theology? I thought we were talking about LDS theology? I am not sure what you are talking about.

[Zakuska]

Can you be saved by obeying some of the commandments?

What percentage of the commandments do you need to obey for exaltation? 50-60-70---100%?

What if "all that I can do" is only obeying 20%, is that ok if thats really all I can do?

Can I be exalted if I don't pay tithing?

Can I be exalted if I don't obey the Word of Wisdom?

Can I be exalted if I don't attend weekly church services?

"What assures one of exaltaion" according to Spencer W Kimball in the quote below?

Miracle of Forgiveness page 208-209

"Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.

This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48.) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal."

Hmmm... sounds like President Kimball knew his scriptures very well... because thats exactly what Peter taught...

2 Peter 1

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Adding commandment keeping to our faith in Jesus for the express purpose of guarenteeing our place in Heaven.

[groove]

You are trying to make it seem that President Kimball was talking about exactly the same things you say when you talk about being "saved." You are trying to shoehorn his theology into yours. We have a very powerful grace theology which you obscure by making improper comparisons. In LDS thought, "salvation" is much more expansive than exaltation, which is the pinnacle of this broader concept, but narrower in scope. Re-read my prior post for what I am talking about.

[Billy]

Hmmm... sounds like President Kimball knew his scriptures very well... because thats exactly what Peter taught...

Adding commandment keeping to our faith in Jesus for the express purpose of guarenteeing our place in Heaven

So you agree with SWK and would say that ". . .achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation." (i.e. Be ye therefore perfect)

Have you attained that level of obedience or perfection? If not, why not?

If you can't say that you are in perfect obedience to all the commandments, then how can you say that you will go to the Celestial Kingdom?

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

So you agree with SWK and would say that ". . .achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation." (i.e. Be ye therefore perfect)

Have you attained that level of obedience or perfection? If not, why not?

If you can't say that you are in perfect obedience to all the commandments, then how can you say that you will go to the Celestial Kingdom?

Perfect in the scriptures does not amount to a 100 percent life without any errors. Perfect means to be complete...When we achieve victory over sin day by day we draw closer to being perfect. That would be consistent with the scriptures of Peter, Nephi, and Spencer W. Kimball over the meaning.

It will be grace that saves us, after all we can do...