Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?

[Hammer]

How about this one. A person is tracted out in the local neighborhood. He is taught the lessons and accepts the invitation to be baptized into the LDS church. On the day of his baptism he is dunked but upon coming out of the water the stress of the day causes him to have a heart attack and die.

This man did not do any works and really was not obedient to the commandments yet because he died. Will this man go to the celestial kingdom despite his life full of riotous living just up to several days prior to his conversion?

He obeyed and was baptised. Or better-- he was baptised because that is what he was taught to do-- thus obeying.

[Billy]

He obeyed and was baptised. Or better-- he was baptised because that is what he was taught to do-- thus obeying.

So you believe in the possibility of a death bed conversion?

[Zakuska]

Aaaaaa.... Billy.... Mormons beleive King tut can be coverted today.

[Hammer]

So you believe in the possibility of a death bed conversion?

If the baptismal pool is the bed --- sure-- but he repented before he was baptised-- it wasn't that he repented as he was being baptised.

[furii]

So you believe in the possibility of a death bed conversion?

Ha! I believe a death bed conversion is not quite the same thing. Did the person know he was going to have a heart attack and that is why he chose to get baptized?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a death bed conversion is something akin to a fear arising at impending doom and perhaps hellfire and thus almost a compulsory spewing of whatever would be needed to be saved in your mind (rites performed by a priest, confessing to Christ your belief in Him, etc.) I don't see that as true conversion. Not that someone on their death bed could not become fully converted, just that for the most part I see it as a flawed attempt to "keep your options open."

As far as I can tell, your hypothetical situation contained a man who was converted through whatever means and baptized without the threat of impending death- that just happened to be a consequence.

In the lds faith, we are innocent and perfect again after baptism- all our previous sins up to that point have been washed away. To say that because this man's life was more "sinful" than perhaps mine was up to my baptism or now or whatever is to deny the complete power of the Atonement to erase all sins. But baptism is still a "work".

Quite frankly, I'm not sure where you were intending that to go.

Or why you completely sidestepped my comments to you. I'd appreciate an answer to those as I've kindly answered yours to the best of my ability.

[Billy]

If the baptismal pool is the bed --- sure-- but he repented before he was baptised-- it wasn't that he repented as he was being baptised.

What does SWK say about death bed confessions?

M of Forgiveness page 166

"Another mistaken idea is that the thief on the cross was forgiven of his sins when the dying Christ answered: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43.) These men on the cross were thieves. How could the Lord forgive a malefactor? They had broken laws. There was no doubt of the guilt of the two men, for the one voluntarily confessed their guilt.

The Lord cannot save men in their sins but only from their sins, and that only when they have shown true repentance. The one thief did show some compassion, whether selfishly with hope we are not sure. He was confessing, but how could he abandon his evil practices when dungeon walls made evil deeds impossible? How could he restore the stolen goods when hanging on the cross? How could he, as John the Baptist required, "bring forth fruits meet for repentance"? How could he live the Lord's commands attend his meetings, pay his tithing, serve his fellowmen? All these take time.Time was the one thing he was running out of very rapidly. "No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven." This thought has been repeated throughout the scriptures numerous times and is a basic truth. We may be sure that the Savior's instructions to the thief on the cross were comparable to his instructions to the woman caught in adultery: "Go your way and transform yourself and repent."

". . .Hence the mere display of death-bed faith or repentance is not sufficient. . ."

[groove]

Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?

Yes.

1. Thief on the cross

2. Age under accountability

3. Retarded person

You didn't read my first post on this thread did you? I didn't use specifics, but my post addressed all of those scenarios. In short, LDS doctrine agrees with you in these cases. In the case of a "deathbed" confession, as others have noted, that phrase typically refers to an insincere confession of faith motivated more by the fear of dying than a true conversion. In the likely rare case of a true conversion near the time of death, I see no reason for God not to forgive the individual consistent with what LDS scripture has to say on the topic (see case of Alma the younger in the Book of Mormon for example). This is why God knows the heart of the person, and the reason why these things are for the individual and God to resolve. Please note that even such situations don't necessarily preclude works after this life or the fruits of that confession (this is why your further out of context exceprting from President Kimball is wrong and misleading -- and even Presdient Kimball alludes to this in the full text about Christ'smission to the spirit world and the great commission which occurred there). After all, if such a confession were not followed by some sort of action then we would say that person's faith was dead, right?

[Avatar4321]

So you believe in the possibility of a death bed conversion?

The concept of Death bed conversion fails to take into account the Redemption of the dead.

[furii]

What does SWK say about death bed confessions?

M of Forgiveness page 166

"Another mistaken idea is that the thief on the cross was forgiven of his sins when the dying Christ answered: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43.) These men on the cross were thieves. How could the Lord forgive a malefactor? They had broken laws. There was no doubt of the guilt of the two men, for the one voluntarily confessed their guilt.

The Lord cannot save men in their sins but only from their sins, and that only when they have shown true repentance. The one thief did show some compassion, whether selfishly with hope we are not sure. He was confessing, but how could he abandon his evil practices when dungeon walls made evil deeds impossible? How could he restore the stolen goods when hanging on the cross? How could he, as John the Baptist required, "bring forth fruits meet for repentance"? How could he live the Lord's commands attend his meetings, pay his tithing, serve his fellowmen? All these take time.Time was the one thing he was running out of very rapidly. "No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven." This thought has been repeated throughout the scriptures numerous times and is a basic truth. We may be sure that the Savior's instructions to the thief on the cross were comparable to his instructions to the woman caught in adultery: "Go your way and transform yourself and repent."

". . .Hence the mere display of death-bed faith or repentance is not sufficient. . ."

Billy,

Ignoring the fact that we don't believe in "the mere display of death-bed faith or repentance"- display being a wonderfully used word, and that I answered this poorly designed "trap" in a previous post, I'd appreciate an answer to my questions given before. An answer, not a rhetorical statement or hypothetical scenario. Why is that so hard?

I have reposted the questions for your convenience:

Is your list meant to be comprehensive? Because I notice a suspicious lack on it...namely, you. Do you think you need obedience to be saved?

Debates aside for number 1, I think you will find most people agree that there needs to be some level of accountability (whether age, or mental capacity) to be judged. Is that not what the last two imply? However, would that not conversely imply that because we here (or most of us wink.gif ) are old enough and competent enough to be accountable, there is a standard by which we are judged. If not why?

[Rob Osborn]

Why is the thief on the cross story brought up so often in these debates? And, why is it so hard to believe the actual workings of Christ?

On many occasions Christ forgave the sinner on just a moments notice after they had true faith and belief in him. Why is it any different for the thief on the cross? Why would not Christ forgive the thief on the cross? Especially because he (the thief) was already meeting the demands of the law which was death. When Christ said that he would be with him that day in paradise that is exactly what he meant. Christ didn't say- today thou shalt go to hell, no, he said the opposite, obviously forgiving the sinner just as he had done so many times before on such a brief notice.

Everyone always says there is no such thing as death bed repentance but there has to be some aknowledgment of past deeds at death and the wanting impressions to repent. These souls who die in their death bed repentant states go on to the spirit world with the same desires and compassions where they are forgiven their sins and put once again on the path towards eternal life. Gods laws and ways are beyond our comprehension. God has the capacity to forgive instantly, but we ourselves have not the ability to understand why he has that capacity. We think it in the sense of never gaining repentance until every demand has been met- such as the case with the thief on the cross. Do we not remember that Christ was put to death because he was labled the "sinner". Was that not what the thief was doing- meeting the very eternal demands of justice by being put to death in the flesh? He paid the ultimate due for his sins and went that day in glorious reunion with his newfound friend and savior Jesus Christ in paradise.

Why is that so difficult for people to understand? Why must everyone rewrite the history? He didn't go to spirit prison or it would have said so.

[Flyonthewall]

Billy,

You have brought up some of the exceptions to the rule, now let us know what you think about the rule.

Can a person of sound mind, and sufficient understanding of right and wrong, be saved "without" obedience?

Can a "Christian TM" be saved "without" obedience?

[Billy]

Billy,

You have brought up some of the exceptions to the rule, now let us know what you think about the rule.

Can a person of sound mind, and sufficient understanding of right and wrong, be saved "without" obedience?

Can a "Christian TM" be saved "without" obedience?

Yes

Salvation is based on faith not works. Some people namely the exceptions noted above will be saved by their faith despite no real works (thief on the cross, death bed conversion etc.). But as many have rightly noted those who have true faith will have fruit in their life. Faith without works is dead. What is dead, their faith is dead if there is no fruit in their life. The works do not save, but the life-changing faith does. If I told you a meteorite would hit your house tomorrow at 8 am, and you said that yea you believed what I was saying, I could tell if you really believed me by your actions. If you are asleep in bed in the morning, you did not have faith in what I was telling you.

I do believe that works will result in rewards in heaven, someone who confesses on his deathbed will not have the same rewards as say a model christian who has devoted his entire life to Christ, but BOTH will be in heaven.

[Zakuska]

What does SWK say about death bed confessions?

M of Forgiveness page 166

"Another mistaken idea is that the thief on the cross was forgiven of his sins when the dying Christ answered: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43.) These men on the cross were thieves. How could the Lord forgive a malefactor? They had broken laws. There was no doubt of the guilt of the two men, for the one voluntarily confessed their guilt.

The Lord cannot save men in their sins but only from their sins, and that only when they have shown true repentance. The one thief did show some compassion, whether selfishly with hope we are not sure. He was confessing, but how could he abandon his evil practices when dungeon walls made evil deeds impossible? How could he restore the stolen goods when hanging on the cross? How could he, as John the Baptist required, "bring forth fruits meet for repentance"? How could he live the Lord's commands attend his meetings, pay his tithing, serve his fellowmen? All these take time.Time was the one thing he was running out of very rapidly. "No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of heaven." This thought has been repeated throughout the scriptures numerous times and is a basic truth. We may be sure that the Savior's instructions to the thief on the cross were comparable to his instructions to the woman caught in adultery: "Go your way and transform yourself and repent."

". . .Hence the mere display of death-bed faith or repentance is not sufficient. . ."

Which is exactly why LDS wait a year before performing ordinances for the dead.

[Billy]

Which is exactly why LDS wait a year before performing ordinances for the dead.

I thought you told me that the thief on the cross had his ordinances performed so that he could be in paradise with Christ that day after a short stint in spirit prison

[Flyonthewall]

Yes

Salvation is based on faith not works. Some people namely the exceptions noted above will be saved by their faith despite no real works (thief on the cross, death bed conversion etc.). But as many have rightly noted those who have true faith will have fruit in their life. Faith without works is dead. What is dead, their faith is dead if there is no fruit in their life. The works do not save, but the life-changing faith does. If I told you a meteorite would hit your house tomorrow at 8 am, and you said that yea you believed what I was saying, I could tell if you really believed me by your actions. If you are asleep in bed in the morning, you did not have faith in what I was telling you.

I do believe that works will result in rewards in heaven, someone who confesses on his deathbed will not have the same rewards as say a model christian who has devoted his entire life to Christ, but BOTH will be in heaven.

The Lord does have the ability to see into someone's heart and know if, given the opportunity, they would have had good works, however, for those given the opportunity for good works, they are responsible for taking advantage of those opportunities.

Salvation is based on faith, but then faith without works is dead. What good is faith without works? Works do not save, no one is disagreeing with you on that, but faith and works go hand in hand...they cannot be separated.

And you do a very good job in illustrating that with the "meteorite" example.

[furii]

Yes

Salvation is based on faith not works. Some people namely the exceptions noted above will be saved by their faith despite no real works (thief on the cross, death bed conversion etc.). But as many have rightly noted those who have true faith will have fruit in their life. Faith without works is dead. What is dead, their faith is dead if there is no fruit in their life. The works do not save, but the life-changing faith does. If I told you a meteorite would hit your house tomorrow at 8 am, and you said that yea you believed what I was saying, I could tell if you really believed me by your actions. If you are asleep in bed in the morning, you did not have faith in what I was telling you.

I do believe that works will result in rewards in heaven, someone who confesses on his deathbed will not have the same rewards as say a model christian who has devoted his entire life to Christ, but BOTH will be in heaven.

...I don't understand how what you're saying doesn't coincide with the LDS belief in a need for works. Not because they "save" us, but because they show the evidence of our faith. We are judged based on what we did with what knowledge we had.

It seems you are saying, correct me if I'm wrong, that a person CAN be saved without obedience, but that , with some exceptions related to competence, accountability, and opportunity, people who do not show obedience WILL NOT be saved, because their lack of obedience shows they did not have true faith. Is this an accurate summary of what you have stated?

[Zakuska]

Rom. 2: 8

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom. 6: 17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Rom. 10: 16

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Gal. 5: 7

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Philip. 2: 12

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Thes. 1: 8

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Sure looks like obedience was necesary for Paul.

And what "Doctrine" might that be that Paul is congratulating them for obeying?!

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Where Have I seen that doctrine before? (Hint: Not in Evangelicalism)

Articles of Faith

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Cold Steel]

That is the error of Mormonism where Joseph adds the phrase after all we can do to Ephesians 2:8-10 in the BOM.

The Spirit dictates differently, depending on who the audience is. Some of the early Christians believed, mistakenly, that they could work their way to heaven. But "works" is never defined. Baptism is a work; so is the ordinance of receiving the Holy Spirit by the laying on of handsâ??yet Jesus plainly stipulated, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. (Note he did not say he who believes shall be saved, but he deliberately added a work, baptism.)

The Restoration of the Gospel clarifies truths that were previously given. Faith without works is dead also was written by the early general authorities and emphasized by the modern ones. Can one gain salvation in God's Kingdom and reject His prophets, fail to be obedient and not give of his sustenance to those who are hungry or in need?

President Joseph F. Smith, just before he received the vision on the redemption of the dead, said that he was "reflecting upon the great atoning sacrifice that was made by the Son of God for the redemption of the world and the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the Redeemer into the world; that through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved. (D&C 138:1-4)

Jesus specifically said that he would reject those who did great things in His name, saying, "I never knew you." These are the many unauthorized and self-appointed agents of Christ who thought that their works would save them.

If it were simply "belief" that saved, why did the apostles write their epistles to the churches in relentless attempts to keep them from sliding into error? Man cannot be saved through works, true, but if faith without works is dead, it is impossible to have faith without works. Jesus went so far as to say that when you did good to a fellow human, "ye did it unto me." And if you did wickedly to your fellow man, you likewise would be accounted as doing evil to Christ.

To continually argue this is not constructive. No man will be saved for works alone, neither can he have faith without works. One cannot be disobedient to God and reject His servants and yet gain eternal life, either.

[ebeddoulos]

Billy,

It is true that the thief on the cross went with Jesus to paradiseon the day he died.

â??And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.â? (Luke 23:43)

However, Jesus had not gone to heaven yet when he was resurrected three days later.

â??Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.â? (John 20:17)

If Christ went to Paradise when he died but had not yet gone to Heaven when resurrected, does it not follow that Paradise and Heaven are not the same place?

As you should now be able to see, Paradise is not Heaven. Since you only accept the Bible as authoritative, you should at least accept what it so plainly teaches.

[Billy]

does it not follow that Paradise and Heaven are not the same place?

You are right according to LDS theology.

In my previous post I made note of the fact that these two places are where spirits go prior to the resurrection per Gospel Principles. Also notice that someone in spirit prison can move to paradise AFTER he or she accepts the gospel AND the ordinances are performed. After the judgement one cannot move up to a higher level. My point was that the thief went to Paradise with Christ that day, a place were according to Gospel principles states that only the righteous who have their ordinances already performed can go. A poster suggested that maybe the ordinances were performed for him that day, but later noted that ordinances are not usually performed for a person until after a year.

Where do the righteous go after they die prior to their resurrection? (Notice it also requires ordinances to be performed)

Luke 23

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Gospel Principles

Paradise

According to the prophet Alma, the righteous spirits rest from earthly care and sorrow.

Spirit Prison

In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may prepare themselves to leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Can you be saved by obeying some of the commandments?

What percentage of the commandments do you need to obey for exaltation? 50-60-70---100%?

What if "all that I can do" is only obeying 20%, is that ok if thats really all I can do?

Can I be exalted if I don't pay tithing?

Can I be exalted if I don't obey the Word of Wisdom?

Can I be exalted if I don't attend weekly church services?

"What assures one of exaltaion" according to Spencer W Kimball in the quote below?

Miracle of Forgiveness page 208-209

"Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.

This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48.) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal."

Which of God's commandments would you call "optional" or unnecessary as far as salvation is concerned?

[furii]

You are right according to LDS theology.

In my previous post I made note of the fact that these two places are where spirits go prior to the resurrection per Gospel Principles. Also notice that someone in spirit prison can move to paradise AFTER he or she accepts the gospel AND the ordinances are performed. After the judgment one cannot move up to a higher level. My point was that the thief went to Paradise with Christ that day, a place were according to Gospel principles states that only the righteous who have their ordinances already performed can go. A poster suggested that maybe the ordinances were performed for him that day, but later noted that ordinances are not usually performed for a person until after a year.

Hey Billy. Nice of you to sidetrack the conversation in order to avoid the original questions posed by the OP and further posts by board members. If you want to discuss the difference between paradise and heaven and where the thief on the cross went, it would be great if you simply made a new thread concerning that and allow this thread to continue discussing the original OP.

Still waiting for the answer to my questions, both the original ones and the one from my last post. Any time would be great, thanks.

[ebeddoulos]

You are right according to LDS theology.

In my previous post I made note of the fact that these two places are where spirits go prior to the resurrection per Gospel Principles. Also notice that someone in spirit prison can move to paradise AFTER he or she accepts the gospel AND the ordinances are performed. After the judgement one cannot move up to a higher level. My point was that the thief went to Paradise with Christ that day, a place were according to Gospel principles states that only the righteous who have their ordinances already performed can go. A poster suggested that maybe the ordinances were performed for him that day, but later noted that ordinances are not usually performed for a person until after a year.

Billy,

You are mistaking (I'm giving you the benifit of the doubt here. Please don't disappoint me) policy for doctrine.

[Billy]

...I don't understand how what you're saying doesn't coincide with the LDS belief in a need for works. Not because they "save" us, but because they show the evidence of our faith. We are judged based on what we did with what knowledge we had.

It seems you are saying, correct me if I'm wrong, that a person CAN be saved without obedience,

True

people who do not show obedience WILL NOT be saved, because their lack of obedience shows they did not have true faith. Is this an accurate summary of what you have stated?

Yea, I think that what you say is pretty close. Salvation is by faith, not because you have done a specific check list. Works produce rewards. You are right though that someone who has true saving faith will have fruit is his or her life. These will revolve around 1. Love of God 2. Love your neighbor, on these two hang all (rules and regulations) the laws and the prophets.

[furii]

True

Yea, I think that what you say is pretty close. Salvation is by faith, not because you have done a specific check list. Works produce rewards. You are right though that someone who has true saving faith will have fruit is his or her life. These will revolve around 1. Love of God 2. Love your neighbor, on these two hang all (rules and regulations) the laws and the prophets.

Okay, well then I'm not sure what problem you have with the LDS belief of faith and works, sorry. It seems we are for the better part in agreement, perhaps with mild differences in semantics.