Phinehas Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 I would say, grace is what magnifies our works to the level whereby we can "earn" salvation. Our own works will not amount to our own salvation(so we don't really earn it by ourselves), it is the Grace of God, that bridges the gap. Therefore we are saved by grace, after all we can do. I believe that Joseph left out a word at the end of the statement, "after all we can do"... NOTHING... IMHO
Phinehas Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 Joseph did not add anything. Evangelicals just overlook the obvious. Why is that? Why is it that Evangelicals forget to emphasise verse 10? If you gave all the verses in that proof text equal emphasis you would recognise that works alone will not get you into heaven. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is required for that. But you should also recognise that come judgement day, faith without works may just keep you out. If you donâ??t understand that, you are only fooling yourselves. To quote from Tyndale's version: It sounds like you are trying to fool yourself. If you are that is one slippery slope on which you are treading. That said, I should give you credit. You at least have half an understanding. Now we are at the crux. Define "good works"? When I hear LDS say "good works" I think of temple works (mostly) but those works are not mentioned in the bible. So how do the LDS define "good works?"
groove Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 Where does President Kimball state that perfection in this life is required for exaltation?
Billy Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 Perfect in the scriptures does not amount to a 100 percent life without any errors. Perfect means to be complete...When we achieve victory over sin day by day we draw closer to being perfect. That would be consistent with the scriptures of Peter, Nephi, and Spencer W. Kimball over the meaning.It will be grace that saves us, after all we can do...That brings us back to the question in my earlier post, how much is really required for exaltation? What if I can only obey 20% of the commandments, is that ok if that is all that I can do? What if I smoke and can't quit, but am really doing all that I can do to quit, can I go to the temple and can I be exalted?What percentage of the commandments do you need to obey for exaltation? 50-60-70---100%?What if "all that I can do" is only obeying 20%, is that ok if thats really all I can do?Can I be exalted if I don't pay tithing?Can I be exalted if I don't obey the Word of Wisdom?Can I be exalted if I don't attend weekly church services?
Phinehas Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 We are saved by grace, but that grace is given after a judgment. We are judged by our works. To believe anything else is to believe that God arbitrarily decides who is saved and who isn't.If you thinks works has nothing to do with it, by what standard are we judged? The standard we are judged by is Jesus Christ. He set the standard did He not? This is why we are all condemned without Him.Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Only the righteousness of Christ will get you into heaven/CKNice job. I think they just need to prayfully read the Book of Mormon before they think they are educated enough on its context to start something.How do you KNOW they haven't??? Sheesh!
Zakuska Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 So you disagree with Peter then... and he was just writing flatulant gobble-de-gook... when He said to ADD TO THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF GUARENTEEING A PLACE IN HEAVEN?
Phinehas Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 More equivocation. Protestant Evangelical "salvation" does not share identity with LDS "eternal life" or "exaltation." You are taking what was intended for and understood by an LDS audience and then trying to shoehorn this out of context into your own theology.It jes don't fit buster.How is it so simple that a child can grasp it then?
Billy Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 Where does President Kimball state that perfection in this life is required for exaltation?He never says perfection is REQUIRED, but he says that perfection assures exaltation, is attainable and a mandate from the Lord. If it is a mandate from the Lord, that is another commandment that you must achieve if you are to strive to obey all the commandments. This is also affirmed every week when you partake of the sacrament, "always to remember Him and keep His commandments."(SWK M of F page 208)"Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48.) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal."
Zakuska Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 Even Paul taught Commandment Keeping...Romans 13 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are Godâ??s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. WHAT why is Paul teaching to keep the ten commandments? Commanded perfection...2 Cor. 13: 11 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Philip. 3: 15 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. And preached attainable perfection in this life...2 Tim. 3: 17 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. So did John...1 Jn. 5: 2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. And So did Jesus.John 14: 15 15
groove Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 How is it so simple that a child can grasp it then?Your post doesn't make any sense here. Simplicity or complexity has nothing to do with an erroneous comparison. President Kimball was specifically addressing an LDS audience and was emphasizing certain points that they needed to hear. They already had the background to understand what he was talking about -- and specifically that he was not saying that they had to be perfect in this life in order to achieve exaltation. To take his words and then apply them as if he was speaking about some Evangelical Protestant notion of grace or salvation is misleading. President Kimball very much believed in the saving power of Christ and the importance of grace. But in this case he was dealing with backsliding people who felt they could skate by on what you guys sometimes call "cheap grace."The original question of this thread was the role of works with regard to salvation. If you guys want to keep tossing Biblical proof texts at each other, then that is fine. But if you actually want to have a dialogue, then we have to understand what each other means when we use certain terms. In this case, exaltation is a reward or treasure in heaven -- the highest reward in fact. However, it is not heaven itself. Heaven consists of all the mansions in the house of the Father which allow an escape from the pains of death and hell. The lowest of these has a glory which has been described as beyond imagination. Many Christians do not have a problem with people obtaining different treasures in heaven partially based on merits, and that is a more apt comparison, than simply talking about a binary salvation, heaven/hell comparison.
groove Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 He never says perfection is REQUIRED, but he says that perfection assures exaltationThen I'll say it. Exaltation requires perfection. My question to you was where he had specified that that perfection was obtained in this life. I will add further and ask you where he specified that perfection was achieved solely through personal effort (he didn't).
Billy Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 Even Paul taught Commandment Keeping...So you are saying that perfection is required for exaltation? (Not 50-60-70%, but 100% obedience)
groove Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 Billy... go read D&C 76:69. It pertains specifically to exaltation and perfection, and the role of Jesus Christ in that process. Mull it over. Chew on its warm savory sumptuousness for a bit. Come back and discuss.
Zakuska Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 So you are saying that perfection is required for exaltation? (Not 50-60-70%, but 100% obedience)What did God say to the Lukewarm Chrisitians?
Phinehas Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 Even Paul taught Commandment Keeping...Romans 13 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are Godâ??s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. WHAT why is Paul teaching to keep the ten commandments? The commandments are summed up in one word... Love. This IS the commandment... All of it.Commanded perfection...2 Cor. 13: 11 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Philip. 3: 15 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. And preached attainable perfection in this life...2 Tim. 3: 17 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. The word(s) perfect i these, means mature/complete. Not perfect as LDS define it(without failures)So did John...1 Jn. 5: 2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. nothing here about perfectionAnd So did Jesus.John 14: 15 15
Zakuska Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 The commandments are summed up in one word... Love. This IS the commandment... All of it.Very correct. Which is what LDS missionaries used to teach in the last two dicussions. Which hardly anyone ever made it to.But what I cant figure out... according to modern Christians commandment keeping has nothing to do with salvation?The word(s) perfect i these, means mature/complete. Not perfect as LDS define it(without failures)nothing here about perfectionHmm... I was unaware LDS defined it that way.Nothing here either. Like I said before, if you try to make everything Jesus said into a commandment, you are just as far off as the Pharisees. Jesus taught LOVE. When we Love our neighbors we are being obedient.Well there are actually 2 great commandments...1) love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart. 2) Love they neighbor as theyselve.On these two commandmnets hang all the law and the prophets.Matt 22 34
Glenn101 Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 Regarding faith, works, and obedience ...Neither the EV "grace alone" position, nor our contemporary LDS teachings on the efficacy of these forces to bring about salvation and divine merit carry the day with me.In the end, it is who we are and who we have become that matters to the Lord. In my opinion, LDS good works and covenant keeping must transform the soul to be of any consequence to divine will. (Your mileage may vary.)That is the LDS understanding of that doctrine.I worry that our ever increasing exhortations regarding strict obedience and pious works do not invigorate the â??natural manâ?. On the one hand, those who sincerely struggle (often desperately) with lifelong or nagging weaknesses are offered little hope, and, on the other hand, those who triumph in LDS worthiness may likely become silently prideful. If a personâ??s faith makes him or her whole â?? fine. If by works, then thatâ??s okay as well.EarlDo you know any person who sincerely desires to do good not to struggle with weaknesses? If a person becomes silently prideful, he/she cannot be triumphing in "LDS worthiness". Humility is part and parcel of the "good works" package.Glenn
groove Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 Glenn is absolutely right here. Transformation of the soul through covenant relationships is the essence of LDS doctrine on salvation and exaltation. There is no faith/works dichotomy. Faith without works is dead. Works without faith are a hollow shell. Christ freely enables us where we do not have capacity.
Earl Posted July 5, 2008 Posted July 5, 2008 That is the LDS understanding of that doctrine.Do you know any person who sincerely desires to do good not to struggle with weaknesses? If a person becomes silently prideful, he/she cannot be triumphing in "LDS worthiness". Humility is part and parcel of the "good works" package.GlennI well realize that many within the Church disagree with my opinion ... however, ... my feeling is that the much stonger contemporary teaching of works and obedience coupled with the emphasis of "temple ready worthiness" contributes to a subtle and silent pride among the saints. The TR interview, in my opinion, seems to measure church loyalty, not worthiness. Accordingly, the saints triumph in loyalty - hardly a transforming state. I think I mentioned in an earlier thread our GP manual [i.e., the basic foundational principles of the gospel] has neither a chapter on "Grace" nor "Mercy". Ya just can't get any more basic that these divine gifts, but they don't seem to make the grade, perhaps because we are so ambivalent about them. I do not have citations, but it seems that within contemporary LDS theology divine favor (whether it be manifested through grace, mercy, or answer to prayer) is preconditioned upon strict, unwavering obedience, on-going and full compliance with all LDS covenant statements, and attainment of certain threshold levels of worthiness. Keep in mind that Elder Nelson teaches that the love of God is NOT unconditional. Within this context, it is not difficult to see how easily pride might find its way. Gee, maybe we should be proud of our spiritual accomplishments...!! Trouble is ... divine favor comes from our desire to love others and to approach God with a contrite heart. As mentioned earlier, Hope has such a high admissions ticket that the theater is empty.I am getting far from the original intent of this thread and realize that my statements are subjective and rebuttable. Others may see trends within Zion much differently. President Eyring made an epoch statement regarding obedience in a recent Ensign. Earl
ebeddoulos Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Now we are at the crux. Define "good works"? When I hear LDS say "good works" I think of temple works (mostly) but those works are not mentioned in the bible. So how do the LDS define "good works?"Ephesians 2:8-10 itself provides the definition:For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10-emphasis added)The basics - faith, repentence, baptism, the ten commandments, etc. - always apply as would temple work. Others would become applicable as you experience the promptings of the Holy Ghost.Love and obedience have been discussed at length so I think that John summed it up:"If ye love me, keep my commandments. (John 14:15)If you need the carrot as opposed to the stick, then I think the following two verses also apply:â??Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.â? (John 14:23) â??If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.â? (John 15:10-12)
Zakuska Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 John goes much further than that...John 14: 1212 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. What greater work is there than doing temple work for the dead who are in the pit where there is no water for them to be baptized.?!
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.