Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?

[Billy]

Which of God's commandments would you call "optional" or unnecessary as far as salvation is concerned?

LDS commandments, ordinances, ideas not necessary for salvation

1. Baptism for the dead

2. Marriage for time and all eternity

3. Word of Wisdom

4. Temple ceremony

5. Signs and tokens

6. Belief in multiple Gods

7. No watching football on Sunday high percentage church attendance

8. Belief in a pre earth life

9. Belief in a heavenly mother

10. Sustain LDS prophets and doctrine

Edit--lined out expected contested points

[Billy]

Billy,

You are mistaking (I'm giving you the benifit of the doubt here. Please don't disappoint me) policy for doctrine.

I am not sure if you are asking a question or making a point, but I am not clear on what you mean, could you rephrase it?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I think obedience is a great word

The OP states "Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?"

I think that most LDS members would agree that 0% obedience won't get you into the celestial kingdom. I have asked several times, but nobody seems to have an answer, what percentage is required as a minimum for exaltation. Is 100% obedience required? Or will a lesser amount do?

Can a smoker who tries to quit, even after all he or she can do, go to the temple and to the celestial kingdom, if he or she never quits?

I think the "percentage of obedience question" is flawed. Obedience is not a matter of minimum requirements. It would also not be fair for me to ask you "Which commandment(s) is/are optional or can be disposed of, for a person to still be saved?"

My LDS faith teaches that heaven has laws. And those laws must be obeyed, or a person cannot dwell there.

Can you imagine living with God while still carrying bad habits? Blowing cigarette smoke and coughing in His face, perhaps? How about something more practical like viewing pornography in God's presence? Or perhaps shouting and arguing with people in heaven. Or can you imagine putting others down for the sake of self pride in heaven? What about cussing and cursing in heaven under God's nose?

I don't know about you, but I could not bear the shame of such behavior in the presence of so holy and pure a personage as God.

So it is with the commandments. They are a preparatory rulebook for abiding in the presence of God.

Now, no one seems to obey the commandments perfectly it is true. But by the power of the Atonement we can be perfect in repentance and seeking forgiveness. And some day, after this life, when satan has power no longer to tempt us, we can become perfect in our obedience.

Heaven requires 100% obedience. To become 100% obedient, we need the Atonement, and forgiveness. We also need hope and faith that God spoke the truth when He said: All things are possible to him that believeth.

[ebeddoulos]

I am not sure if you are asking a question or making a point, but I am not clear on what you mean, could you rephrase it?

OK you said:

You are right according to LDS theology.

In my previous post I made note of the fact that these two places are where spirits go prior to the resurrection per Gospel Principles. Also notice that someone in spirit prison can move to paradise AFTER he or she accepts the gospel AND the ordinances are performed. After the judgement one cannot move up to a higher level. My point was that the thief went to Paradise with Christ that day, a place were according to Gospel principles states that only the righteous who have their ordinances already performed can go. A poster suggested that maybe the ordinances were performed for him that day, but later noted that ordinances are not usually performed for a person until after a year.

I replied:Billy,

Billy,

You are mistaking (I'm giving you the benifit of the doubt here. Please don't disappoint me) policy for doctrine.

Doctrine is static; it does not change. Jesus Christ himself through revelation provides the doctrine and through free agency allows his servants to set policy. It may be current policy[/p] to wait a year but it has not always been so nor do I expect it to remain so. Policy is fluid. It changes to meet the circumstances. Anti-Mormons like to deliberately equate policy to doctrine and play gotcha. If that was your attempt, I would be disappointed in you. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, believing that you were mistaking the one (policy) for the other (doctrine); that it was not a conscious deliberate ploy on your part. I hope I was not mistaken in my judgement to do so.

[johnny]

ebeddoulos,

Joseph did not add anything. Evangelicals just overlook the obvious. Why is that? Why is it that Evangelicals forget to emphasise verse 10?

The Mormon words "after all we can do" perverts the gospel of Christ and makes the restored Mormon gospel another gospel. The gospel of Christ is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". If by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

We should walk in good works, we should walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us. It is God which works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure so that we work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. The work that we should do is to believe on Jesus whom God has sent. We are saved by his life, not by works of righteousness which we have done. According to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.

If you gave all the verses in that proof text equal emphasis you would recognise that works alone will not get you into heaven. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is required for that. But you should also recognise that come judgement day, faith without works may just keep you out. If you donâ??t understand that, you are only fooling yourselves. To quote from Tyndale's version:

Works of mercy will get us into heaven. Those who do good through acts of mercy will receive mercy and live with the our Heavenly Father. We show our faith by our works, faith which works by love. It is God which works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure. The branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine. It is the fruit of the spirit, it is not our fruit. We can do many wonderful works but yet Jesus will not know us if they are different than the will of the Father. He has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace.

The basics - faith, repentence, baptism, the ten commandments, etc. - always apply as would temple work. Others would become applicable as you experience the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

To have eternal life and live in our Father's presence we obey Jesus commandment not the Mormon commandments . If we continue in Jesus' word, then we are his disciples. Jesus' commandment is that we should believe on the name of Son Jesus Christ and love one another. Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. Whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[ebeddoulos]

Johnny

By length of time you have been on the board and the fact that the the last four paragraphs - 4/5 of your post - is pure Mormon doctrine distilled from Latter-day scripture, I suspect that you know better than to try that â??perversionâ? clap-trap contained in your first paragraph. It is a strawman at best.

You know that The Book of Mormon is filled with the truth that salvation comes only through Jesus. You know that The Book of Mormon teaches that the only one who has the power to save is Jesus.

â??There is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.â? (2 Nephi 25:20)

You know that The Book of Mormon teaches that salvation only come through repentance and faith in Jesus.

â??For salvation cometh to none such except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.â? (Mosiah 3:12)

You know that The Book of Mormon teaches that there is only way to obtain salvation and that is through the atoning blood of Jesus.

â??Yea, remember that there is no other way nor means whereby man can be saved, only through the atoning blood of Jesus Christâ? (Helaman 5:9)

You know that The Book of Mormon also teaches that we to teach our children and fellow man to believe in Christ trust in his grace and after being reconciled to God, to do everything we can to further the work of the kingdom. I know you know it because you quoted part of it though you did give attribution to Mormon when it should have been Nephi.

â??For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.â? (2 Nephi 25: 23)

The one thing you may not know it that English is a dynamic language and changes with use over time. A case in point is that in 1806, Noah Webster provided only two definitions for the word after, both of which use the word later and the first one specifying later in time:

â??Aftâ??er, pr. later in time, behind. In pursuit of, according to
Aftâ??er, a. later, latter, belonging to the stern.â?(Noah Webster, â??A Compendious Dictionary of the English Languageâ?, Connecticut: Sidneyâ??s Press, [1806] pg. 7) Facsimile Edition, New York, NY: Crown Publishers, Inc., [1970])

The Book of Mormon is inspired scripture and through it God reveals many truths. One on those truths is that faith in Jesus Christ and on His atoning power are requirements for our salvation and it is by grace we are saved, after (i.e., later in time) all we can do.

By now you should know what LDS doctrine is and you should stop using strawman fallacies especially one so loosely put together as this one. I'm disappointed in you.

[johnny]

ebeddoulos,

You know that The Book of Mormon is filled with the truth that salvation comes only through Jesus. You know that The Book of Mormon teaches that the only one who has the power to save is Jesus.

I know that the Book of Mormon perverts the gospel of Christ that is revealed in the Bible. The Mormon restored gospel adds words like "after all we can do".

The Book of Mormon is inspired scripture and through it God reveals many truths. One on those truths is that faith in Jesus Christ and on His atoning power are requirements for our salvation and it is by grace we are saved, after (i.e., later in time) all we can do.

Please detail for us the "do" part that you can do?

Are Mormon commandments part of this "do"?

[Zakuska]

ebeddoulos,

I know that the Book of Mormon perverts the gospel of Christ that is revealed in the Bible. The Mormon restored gospel adds words like "after all we can do".

Wow... just like Peter!

2 Peter 1

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Please detail for us the "do" part that you can do?

Lets start at the foundation of the Pillars in the temple of God.

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Faith, Repentance, Baptism By Water, Baptism By Fire (Gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of hands), Endureing to the end.

[Lightbearer]

Let's change the old grace / works debate for a moment, and phrase it another way. Rather than asking "what saves us", I want to ask what can we do without and still be saved.

1. Can a person do without God's grace and still be saved? I think all Christians agree--NO.

2. Can a person do without obedience and still be saved? I wonder who will say yes.

Grace alone cannot save us. It requires a free and willing heart before God's grace has any affect at all on us.

In answer to the OP: "Can a person be saved without obedience?" I answer NO, not in the Celestial Kingdom, or for any other Kingdom of Glory for that matter as stated in the following revelation:

(D&C 88:17-39) "And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it. Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory; For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father; That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified. And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom. For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory. And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the lawâ?? Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it. For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body. They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same. That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still. All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified."

From this scripture we learn that we must obey the law of whatever kingdom we go to and that even then it is a GIFT and not a wage as some try to accuse the Saints of believing. If we do not obey the law of any of these Kingdoms then we are not justified or sanctified but are "filthy still." These principles are totally foreign to the "world" because they do not understand any of the Lord's revelations. As to the finer points of the OP, that asks can we be saved without God's grace it is a resounding NO, absolutely not. We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But the purpose of the atonement is not merely to remove penalties for the sins we repent of, but also to turn us away from sins and to enable us to perfect our lives by placing us on the strait and narrow path on which we must walk in order to obtain. The tests and trials do not end at conversion or baptism, in fact they seem to intensify. Baptism is the covenant we make with God that we will take upon us the name of Christ and always remember Him and His atonement and as we do that we can always keep His commandments and yes the "Mormon commandments" are Christ's commandments! As we do these things we will always have His spirit to be with us, the spirit is not just a witness to the truth but a sanctifier and is the way we become Holy and without spot. We do not look forward to the time when we can "stop keeping the commandments" but the atonement is the means whereby we can make the commandments a part of our lives. To those who say we do not need to keep the commandments of God or to avoid temptation after we accept Christ and join His Church I offer the following:

(1 John 1:6-10) "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

What is John saying here? If we walk in darkness then the blood of Jesus Christ will not cleanse us? Check out the next Chapter:

(1 John 2:1-6) "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Does this not say we must have obedience?

Repentance means to change to turn from sin to righteousness, that is the heart and soul of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Any who claim otherwise are preaching "another Gospel" or specifically the gospel of Satan, because he was the one who tried to present a plan of salvation without agency or accountability for sin. He said he would save them all, "not one soul shall be lost, and surely I will do it..." it was a ridiculous type of salvation one that really would accomplish nothing. Think about the following words of Peter:

(2 Peter 2:1-22) "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with manâ??s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Peter was talking about members of the Church who were apostate and were teaching that obedience and righteousness was not required of the Saints. So He is here stating that the Saints or those members of Christ's Church can fall away from that salvation promised the Saints. All who claim we can be "saved in our sins" or without repenting and forsaking them are teaching a damnable heresy and a "false gospel" not the true Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[johnny]

Zakuska,

Wow... just like Peter!

Your forgot verse 3, it says

2Pet.1 ([3] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: [)

Lets start at the foundation of the Pillars in the temple of God.

Hebrews is speaking about "perfection", we can move on to perfection "if God permits" (Heb 6:3).

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

Your forgot verse 3, it says

2Pet.1 ([3] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: [)

What about it? Why is Peter telling us to add anything to our faith? And for the specific purpose of gaurenteeing a place in heaven?

Hebrews is speaking about "perfection", we can move on to perfection "if God permits" (Heb 6:3).

And...?

Those are the Principles of Christs Doctrine which establish a beleiver in the Temple of God. Sets his feet on the path to Perfection.

[johnny]

Zakuska,

What about it? Why is Peter telling us to add anything to our faith? And for the specific purpose of gaurenteeing a place in heaven?

We add charity to our faith (2Pet 7). Jesus' commandment is that we should believe on the name of Son Jesus Christ and love one another.

Jesus' commandments do not include the Mormon commandments.

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

We add charity to our faith (2Pet 7). Jesus' commandment is that we should believe on the name of Son Jesus Christ and love one another.

Peter says to add much more than just Charity.

Jesus' commandments do not include the Mormon commandments.

Which are?

[johnny]

Zakuska,

> Jesus' commandments do not include the Mormon commandments.

Which are?

Which are these ...

"He commands us all to receive certain ordinances. . . 1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. 2. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. 3. We must receive the temple endowment. 4. We must be married for time and eternity. In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to- . . . Pay honest tithes and offerings . . . Obey the Word of Wisdom. ... Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord." (Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 47)

". . . each of us has been commanded to marry and have children so that through our own experience we can learn to be heavenly parents." (Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 36)

[Zakuska]

So lets see...

1. Christ did not command everyone to repent and be baptized everyone of you and recieve the Holy ghost?

Which according to Hebrews 6 is the foundation of the Pillars in Gods Temple?

2. What happen to the command Given to Adam and Noah to 'Multiply and Replenish the earth'?

3. God gave moses strict dietary laws... why can he not give it again?

4. Christ expected much more than a tithe from those who followed him.

[Billy]

4. Christ expected much more than a tithe from those who followed him.

Was there tithing in the New Testament church after Christ died?

The members were encouraged to give with a cheerful heart

At one point the church in Judea had all things in common

But specifically was tithing ever required or spoken about?

The reason that I stipulated that after Christ died, because prior to his death they were still under the law, thus were required to tithe.

[johnny]

Zakuska,

1. Christ did not command everyone to repent and be baptized everyone of you and recieve the Holy ghost?

He did NOT command "We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."

2. What happen to the command Given to Adam and Noah to 'Multiply and Replenish the earth'?

God said the same thing to the whales ...

3. God gave moses strict dietary laws... why can he not give it again?

But this is NOT a commandment of Jesus.

4. Christ expected much more than a tithe from those who followed him.

Jesus did NOT command it.

Jesus' commandment is that we should believe on the name of Son Jesus Christ and love one another.

Like I said earlier, Jesus' commandments do not include the Mormon commandments.

[Billy]

3. God gave moses strict dietary laws... why can he not give it again?

Gal 5

4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Christ turned water into wine. Wine was also used in the sacrament

Romans 14

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

He did NOT command "We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."

That would be his Apostles as evidenced by...

Hebrews 6

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands,

Theres Baptisms in the Plural there in conjunction with the laying on of hands.

Acts 8: 18

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostlesâ?? hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

God said the same thing to the whales ...

And do they obey?

But this is NOT a commandment of Jesus.

Jesus did NOT command it.

Jesus' commandment is that we should believe on the name of Son Jesus Christ and love one another.

Like I said earlier, Jesus' commandments do not include the Mormon commandments.

"Wether it be from my mouth or the mouth of my servants... it is the same".

[johnny]

Zakuska,

"Wether it be from my mouth or the mouth of my servants... it is the same".

That is the problem it is NOT the same. The Mormon restored gospel adds the words "after all we can do" to the gospel of Christ . The gospel of Christ is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". The apostle Paul says, if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

That is the problem it is NOT the same. The Mormon restored gospel adds the words "after all we can do" to the gospel of Christ . The gospel of Christ is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God". The apostle Paul says, if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

"Created in Christ Jesus and ordained unto Good works, that we should walk in them"

Why do you always miss that Part Johny?

[Billy]

"Created in Christ Jesus and ordained unto Good works, that we should walk in them"

Good works are a great thing to do, even for those who are not religious. Feeding the poor, helping out your neighbor, assisting the little old lady across the street. Nobody disagrees with this point.

The question is do you rely on those good works for your salvation?

[Zakuska]

Good works are a great thing to do, even for those who are not religious. Feeding the poor, helping out your neighbor, assisting the little old lady across the street. Nobody disagrees with this point.

The question is do you rely on those good works for your salvation?

And the answer is... of course not. Except that Peter tells us that by doing all this it will make our calling and ellection sure : ie our place will be guarenteed in heaven. because God will see all the fruits of the tree and know.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So are good works required for grace or not? I dont think anybody has answered this question.

As to the original question 100% obediance is not required for salvation.

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...,

So are good works required for grace or not? I dont think anybody has answered this question

God's mercy and love are required. He gives grace to the humble.

Eph.2 ([4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) [6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: [7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast)

1Pet.5 ([5] Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.)

2Tim.1 ( [9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,)