Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?

[ebeddoulos]

ebeddoulos

Pay attention to the words of Jesus and the apostle Paul, neither one is saying that marriage is a commandment like the Mormon Church commands Jesus and Paul say the following to the unmarried:

That is pretty pathetic, you know. You have already used that argument -- twice. I have already responded to that argument -- twice. Rather than respond, you just regurgitated the same tired argument the third time? Since you are so fond of repeating yourself, I decided tol recycle my responses to them. You and I have discussed this already. Repetitious inanity does not improve your argument. All you so is put your ignorance on display by proving that you cannot comprehend either the scriptures or a dictionary. Which point you go on to prove in your latest segment:

Judas H. Priest! What you have done to Jesus statement on marriage is truly perverted. What Jesus actually said is diametrically opposite of what you tried to make it appear he said.

Jesus said, "Moses provided for divorce as a concession to your hardheartedness, but it is not part of God's original plan. I'm holding you to the original plan, and holding you liable for adultery if you divorce your faithful wife and then marry someone else. I make an exception in cases where the spouse has committed adultery." Jesus' disciples objected, "If those are the terms of marriage, we're stuck. Why get married?" But Jesus said, "Not everyone is mature enough to live a married life. It requires a certain aptitude and grace. Marriage isn't for everyone. Some, from birth seemingly, never give marriage a thought. Others never get asked--or accepted. And some decide not to get married for kingdom reasons. But if you're capable of growing into the largeness of marriage, do it." (Matthew 19:8-12 â?? The Message â?? The Bible in Contemporary English)

Please note that it was his desciples who said, "it is not good to marry" not Jesus. Such a perversion of Christâ??s message of his affirmation of marriage makes it appear that you have deliberately made yourself into a scriptural eunuch. You poor thing. What part of DO IT do you not understand?

You also perverted Paulâ??s statement on marriage in a very similar manner. Iâ??ll give it all to you in context.

"Now, getting down to the questions you asked in your letter to me. First, Is it a good thing to have sexual relations?
Certainly--but only within a certain context. It's good for a man to have a wife, and for a woman to have a husband. Sexual drives are strong, but marriage is strong enough to contain them and provide for a balanced and fulfilling sexual life in a world of sexual disorder. The marriage bed must be a place of mutuality--the husband seeking to satisfy his wife, the wife seeking to satisfy her husband. Marriage is not a place to "stand up for your rights." Marriage is a decision to serve the other, whether in bed or out. Abstaining from sex is permissible for a period of time if you both agree to it, and if it's for the purposes of prayer and fasting--but only for such times. Then come back together again. Satan has an ingenious way of tempting us when we least expect it. I'm not, understand, commanding these periods of abstinence--only providing my best counsel if you should choose them.
Sometimes I wish everyone were single like me--a simpler life in many ways! But celibacy is not for everyone any more than marriage is. God gives the gift of the single life to some, the gift of the married life to others.
I do, though, tell the unmarried and widows that singleness might well be the best thing for them, as it has been for me. But if they can't manage their desires and emotions, they should by all means go ahead and get married. The difficulties of marriage are preferable by far to a sexually tortured life as a single.
And if you are married, stay married. This is the Master's command, not mine. If a wife should leave her husband, she must either remain single or else come back and make things right with him. And a husband has no right to get rid of his wife.
For the rest of you who are in mixed marriages--Christian married to nonChristian--we have no explicit command from the Master. So this is what you must do. If you are a man with a wife who is not a believer but who still wants to live with you, hold on to her. If you are a woman with a husband who is not a believer but he wants to live with you, hold on to him. The unbelieving husband shares to an extent in the holiness of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is likewise touched by the holiness of her husband. Otherwise, your children would be left out; as it is, they also are included in the spiritual purposes of God.
On the other hand, if the unbelieving spouse walks out, you've got to let him or her go. You don't have to hold on desperately. God has called us to make the best of it, as peacefully as we can. You never know, wife: The way you handle this might bring your husband not only back to you but to God. You never know, husband: The way you handle this might bring your wife not only back to you but to God.
And don't be wishing you were someplace else or with someone else. Where you are right now is God's place for you. Live and obey and love and believe right there. God, not your marital status, defines your life. Don't think I'm being harder on you than on the others. I give this same counsel in all the churches.â? (Corinthians 7:1-17 â?? The Message â?? The Bible in Contemporary English)

Just in case you still somehow managed to miss it, Paul is reaffirming marriage, from the heart to the bedroom, from the difficulties to the blessings.

Go blow the dust off your Bible, open it up and prayerfully read it so that next time you might actually get something right.

Did you enjoy the sauce? Somehow I doubt that you will see that Jesus' teachings are the exact opposite from what you say it is. You missed it the first two times why should you get it this time? Ditto for Paul.

You are now dismissed. Run along.

[johnny]

Zakuska,

What about the next verse...

You forgot about these verses,

Jas.2 ([18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.)

2Tim.1 ([9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,)

[Zakuska]

Johhny,

Marriage and having children is much more than a "blessing"...

His Word itself often directly provides the means. But the argument is often made that "be fruitful" is ONLY a blessing, and not a command. This is the false dichotomy that I will here expose.

It should first be noted that the grammatical construct in the Hebrew of "be fruitful" is that of a plural, masculine imperative (i.e command) - not a second person indicative (merely blessing). That basically kills the argument that this is meant merely as a blessing. Their argument seems odd anyway, since I've never heard the same people argue that "subdue the earth and rule over it" was ONLY a blessing. Yet these commands were given in the same breath.

http://lutheransandcontraception.blogspot....command-or.html

The Hebrew disagrees with you Johnny.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Round and round and round and round.

You dont need good works that isnt what saves you, but good works are a product of salvation but if I dont have good works then I am not saved so you do need good works but they arent required for salvation but they are a product........................

I think this is worthy of a repeat. This seems to be what Johnny and others are saying.

You dont need good works that isnt what saves you, but good works are a product of salvation but if I dont have good works then I am not saved so you do need good works but they arent required for salvation but they are a product........................

[johnny]

ebeddoulos,

That is pretty pathetic, you know.

Have a nice day ...

[Zakuska]

Finally... I can get off this merry go round... the Johhny Express has left the building.

[johnny]

Zakuska,

Marriage and having children is much more than a "blessing"...

Here is a different view, see the article for more information:

Celibacy and the Priesthood

http://www.catholic.com/library/Celibacy_a..._Priesthood.asp

Another, quite different Fundamentalist confusion is the notion that celibacy is unbiblical, or even "unnatural." Every man, it is claimed, must obey the biblical injunction to "Be fruitful and multiply" (Gen. 1:28); and Paul commands that "each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband" (1 Cor. 7:2). It is even argued that celibacy somehow "causes," or at least correlates with higher incidence of, illicit sexual behavior or perversion.

All of this is false. Although most people are at some point in their lives called to the married state, the vocation of celibacy is explicitly advocatedâ??as well as practicedâ??by both Jesus and Paul.

So far from "commanding" marriage in 1 Corinthians 7, in that very chapter Paul actually endorses celibacy for those capable of it: "To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion" (7:8-9).

Paul was not the first apostle to conclude that celibacy is, in some sense, "better" than marriage. After Jesusâ?? teaching in Matthew 19 on divorce and remarriage, the disciples exclaimed, "If such is the case between a man and his wife, it is better not to marry" (Matt 19:10). This remark prompted Jesusâ?? teaching on the value of celibacy "for the sake of the kingdom":

Notice that this sort of celibacy "for the sake of the kingdom" is a gift, a call that is not granted to all, or even most people, but is granted to some. Other people are called to marriage. It is true that too often individuals in both vocations fall short of the requirements of their state, but this does not diminish either vocation, nor does it mean that the individuals in question were "not really called" to that vocation. The sin of a priest doesnâ??t necessarily prove that he never should have taken a vow of celibacy, any more than the sin of a married man or woman proves that he or she never should have gotten married. It is possible for us to fall short of our own true calling.

Celibacy is neither unnatural nor unbiblical. "Be fruitful and multiply" is not binding upon every individual; rather, it is a general precept for the human race. Otherwise, every unmarried man and woman of marrying age would be in a state of sin by remaining single, and Jesus and Paul would be guilty of advocating sin as well as committing it.

[Zakuska]

I like how Martin Luther said it beter...

For this word which God speaks, 'Be fruitful and multiply,' is not a command. It is more than a command, namely, a divine ordinance which it is not our prerogative to hinder or ignore. Rather, it is just as necessary as the fact that I am a man , and more necessary than sleeping and waking, eating and drinking, and emptying the bowels and bladder. It is a nature and disposition just as innate as the organs involved in it. Therefore, just as God does not command anyone to be a man or a woman but created them the way they have to be, so he does not command them to multiply but creates them so that they have to multiply. And wherever men try to resist this, it remains irresistible nonetheless and goes its way through fornication, adultery, and secret sins, for this is a matter of nature and not of choice.

In the third place, from this ordinance of creation God has himself exempted three categories of men, saying in Matthew 19:12, 'There are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.' Apart from these three groups, let no man presume to be without a spouse. And whoever does not fall within one of these three categories should not consider anything except the estate of marriage. Otherwise it simply impossible for you to remain righteous. For the Word of God which created you and said, 'Be fruitful and multiply,' abides and rules within you; you can by no means ignore it, or you will be bound to commit heinous sins without end.

[Luther's works, vol. 45, The Christian in Society II, The Estate of Marriage, pp. 15-18]

Celebacy goes against every fiber of Human nature. "It is not good for man to be alone"

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

With this statement I assume youâ??re are using "saved" in a Celestial context? Because all men have been saved from death and hell...it is a free gift.

Yes, I'm speaking of being saved from sin. And even those who eventually receive their glory in the Telestial Kingdom, will need to rely on Jesus Christ to become clean and receive this glory. It will just take them 1000 years to realize it. But eventually, they too will be made clean and lifted up from hell--something they will not have the power to do on their own.

[johnny]

Zakuska,

Celebacy goes against every fiber of Human nature. "It is not good for man to be alone"

Sounds like Martin Luther words goes against the words of Jesus and the apostle Paul, they say the following to the unmarried:

1Cor.7 ([7] For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that [8] I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. [32] But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: )

Matt.19 ([12] For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.)

[Zakuska]

Pauls words go agaisnt Gods words.

Gen. 2: 18

18

[wenglund]

Can we all agree that the gospel of Christ boils down to love?

If so, then wouldn't love be necessary for salvation?

And, doesn't charity and love come by way of obedience?

Therefore, isn't obedience necessary for salvation?

To understand how all commandments are subsumed under the two great commandments of love, one need only recognize the reciprocal relationship between God's love and one's keeping the commandments: when one keeps God's commandments, God's love will abide in one (Jn 15:10); the love of God that abideth in one, will then motivate one, all the more, to obey God's commandments (1Jn 2:5-6; 5:3; 2 Jn 1:6). As long as one continues to act in obedience to the commandments, as motivated by God's love, the love of God will continue to grow. The spiral of this reciprocal relationship being clearly ascending, and culminating in perfect love, and perfect obedience (1 Jn 2:3-6). This, in essence, is the process of salvation wherein one becomes perfect even as one's Father in heaven is perfect (Matt 5:48): which Father is love (1 Jn 4:. John has said, "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world" (1 Jn 4:17).

So foundational is charity to the process of salvation, that saving faith is said to work by it (Gal 5:6), and all virtues, including faith, are subordinate to it (1 Cor 13:2, 13).

As further scriptural evidence of what I have stated:

• -"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."(Matt 22:37-40; see also Rom 13:9-10; Gal 5:14; Jm 2:.
  
• -"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."(Eph 1:4)
  
• -"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love. May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."(Eph 3:17-19)
  
• -"But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another. And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more."(1 Thes 4:9-10)
  
• -"What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" . . . "thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself."(Lk 10:25-28)
  
• -"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. . .If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. . .And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him."(1 Jn 4:7, 12, 16)
  
• -"Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."(Col 3:24)
  
• -"bear ye another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ." (Gal 6:2)
  
• -"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose."(Rom 8:28)
  
• -"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works."(Heb 10:24)
  
• -"Serve in a newness of spirit."(Rom 7:6)
  
• -"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear."(Heb 12:28)
  
• -"serve and follow Christ" (Matt 4:10; Lk 1:73-75; Jn 12:26; Rom 7:6; 14:18; Col 3:24; Heb 9:14)
  
• -"heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" (Jm 2:5)
  

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[johnny]

Zakuska,

Pauls words go agaisnt Gods words.

Good thing we have the modern revelation of the apostle Paul to clarify this matter ...

[Zakuska]

..double..

[Zakuska]

Zakuska,

Good thing we have the modern revelation of the apostle Paul to clarify this matter ...

Good thing we don't have to listen to bad advice from Apsotles when they go against the words of God.

2 Peter 3

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[Billy]

Good thing we don't have to listen to bad advice from Apsotles when they go against the words of God.

That may not be true anymore.

http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/68994

Follow the Prophet

8 Jul 2008

"Consequently, â??active Mormonsâ? know that when the prophet speaks, the debate is over. No matter how diligently someone reads their scriptures, attends church or pays a full tithe, unless they sustain President Monson, his counselors and the other 12 apostles, they are not â??active Mormons.â?

[johnny]

wenglund,

And, doesn't charity and love come by way of obedience?

Love comes by way of the Spirit, love is "the fruit of the Spirit" (Gal 5:22).

We can "do nothing" without Christ (John 15:5).

Gal.5 ([22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,)

John.15 ([5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.)

[Zakuska]

That may not be true anymore.

http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/68994

Follow the Prophet

8 Jul 2008

"Consequently, â??active Mormonsâ? know that when the prophet speaks, the debate is over. No matter how diligently someone reads their scriptures, attends church or pays a full tithe, unless they sustain President Monson, his counselors and the other 12 apostles, they are not â??active Mormons.â?

To bad your anti Mormon Cut and paste Job (Isnt that from Schaffs DVD?) which was printed in a Newspaper was reprimanded by the President of the church at the time it was given.

Perhaps... Im going to have to write the paper.

[Billy]

To bad your anti Mormon Cut and paste Job (Isnt that from Schaffs DVD?) which was printed in a Newspaper was reprimanded by the President of the church at the time it was given.

You got me, I cut and pasted the article from the worst ANTI-MORMON site that I know, BYU NewsNet. I provided a little more from that vile source. And look it is dated TODAY, so this is fresh off the press.

http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/68994

Follow the Prophet

- 8 Jul 2008

On June 29, every LDS ward in California had a statement by the First Presidency read over the pulpit. In it, President Thomas S. Monson and his counselors asked members to â??do all [they] canâ? to support a new proposed amendment to legally define marriage as a union between a man and a woman. The amendment would overturn the May 15 California Supreme Court ruling but uphold a 2000 prohibition on same-sex marriage.

The backlash reaction was almost immediate. While some members agreed with the statement or disagreed but chose to follow their Prophet, others became outspoken antagonists of the Church position. The latter, of course, caught wind with activists and the media, and resulted in an outpouring of news articles across California and Utah and blog postings that now circulate the globe. These individuals claim to be â??active Mormonsâ? and disagree with the Prophetâ??s counsel.

Regardless of their rationale for disagreeing, any â??active Mormonâ? sustains President Thomas S. Monson as the prophet, seer, revelator and mouth-piece of God. â??Active Mormonsâ? raise their right hand during General Conference and sustain him and the other 14 apostles as the leaders of Godâ??s church on the earth today. In sustaining, they are not voting for them or agreeing with their position, they are promising to support and listen to them.

Consequently, â??active Mormonsâ? know that when the prophet speaks, the debate is over. No matter how diligently someone reads their scriptures, attends church or pays a full tithe, unless they sustain President Monson, his counselors and the other 12 apostles, they are not â??active Mormons.â?

. . .which was printed in a Newspaper was reprimanded by the President of the church at the time it was given.

It was written today, are you saying that it was reprimanded by President Monson today? Where did you here that?

[Zakuska]

Im emailing them and showing them the this source...

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/When_the_Proph...nking_Done.html

I just sent the following...

I have to complain about one of the stories on your sight today.

http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/68994

It says…

Consequently, “active Mormons” know that when the prophet speaks, the debate is over. No matter how diligently someone reads their scriptures, attends church or pays a full tithe, unless they sustain President Monson, his counselors and the other 12 apostles, they are not “active Mormons.”

This particular line is basically a repeat of an article written in the 1945 in the churches Improvement Era and was harshly reprimanded by the Prophet of the church and the twelve at the time.

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/When_the_Proph...nking_Done.html

I think you need to reign in your self-righteous editors just a tad bit nelly.

Concerned,

Zakuska <- Protecting my anonimity though I have none, I put my real name.

[Billy]

Im emailing them and showing them the this source...

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/When_the_Proph...nking_Done.html

I just sent the following...

I most interesting thing about the BYU article that I noted and the Fair article you referenced is that they BOTH deny any official position for the Church in the fine print at the bottom. How do you know which one is right and which one is wrong?

Why bother reading either article if both deny any "official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice."?

http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/68994

"This editorial represents the opinion of The Daily Universe editorial board. Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of BYU, its administration or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/When_the_Proph...nking_Done.html

"FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice."

[Zakuska]

I most interesting thing about the BYU article that I noted and the Fair article you referenced is that they BOTH deny any official position for the Church in the fine print at the bottom. How do you know which one is right and which one is wrong?

Why bother reading either article if both deny any "official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice."?

http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/68994

"This editorial represents the opinion of The Daily Universe editorial board. Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of BYU, its administration or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/When_the_Proph...nking_Done.html

"FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice."

Ah but the fair article reference a letter the was signed by the prophet of the church at the time.

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

Office of the First Presidency

Salt Lake City, Utah

...

Faithfully yours,

Geo. Albert Smith [signed]

[wenglund]

Love comes by way of the Spirit, love is "the fruit of the Spirit" (Gal 5:22).

We can "do nothing" without Christ (John 15:5).

Gal.5 ([22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,)

John.15 ([5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.)

Okay, since love comes by way of the Spirit (as the scriptures you cited point out); and love also comes by way of obedience (as the scriptures I cited pointed out); then there must logically be a reciprocal correlation between obedience and the Spirit.

• "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience....Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit."(1 Pet 1:2, 22)
  
• "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."(1Jn 3:23-24)
  
• "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:4)
  

And, if the Spirit is required for salvation ("Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God "--Matt 3:5; "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"--1Thes 2:13), and if love is required for salvation (see my previous post); then reciprocally, obedience is required as well.

Isn't it fascinating how faith, love, obedience, and the Spirit are so inter-connected within Christ's gospel, and each, according to the Bible, are necessary for salvation? I sure think so.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[johnny]

wenglund,

And, if the Spirit is required for salvation ("Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God "--Matt 3:5; "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth "--1Thes 2:13), and if love is required for salvation (see my previous post); then reciprocally, obedience is required as well.

1Thes 2:13 reveals God has chosen us to salvation, salvation comes from grace. Love and faith are the fruit of the Spirit. Love and faith are NOT our fruit. We show our faith by our works. God has saved us NOT according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace (see 2Tim 1 below). 1Thes 2:13 reveals it is NOT through obedience it is through "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".

• 2Tim.1 ([7] For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. [9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,)
  
• 2Thes.2 ([13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: )
  

Isn't it fascinating how faith, love, obedience, and the Spirit are so inter-connected within Christ's gospel, and each, according to the Bible, are necessary for salvation? I sure think so.

Why does the restored Mormon gospel found in the Book of Mormon pervert th gospel of Christ by adding the words "after all we can do"?

Is the work of Jesus through the atonement enough for salvation?

Is santification of the Spirit and belief of the truth enough for salvation?

Is God's grace enough for salvation?

[johnny]

Fig-bearing This...,

>> With this statement I assume youâ??re are using "saved" in a Celestial context? Because all men have been saved from death and hell...it is a free gift.

Yes, I'm speaking of being saved from sin. And even those who eventually receive their glory in the Telestial Kingdom, will need to rely on Jesus Christ to become clean and receive this glory. It will just take them 1000 years to realize it. But eventually, they too will be made clean and lifted up from hell--something they will not have the power to do on their own.

There ARE NOT different kingdoms for the saved. The more obedient DO NOT receive a different kingdom than the less obedient.

After Final Judgment all the saved have the glory of the Father and will live with our Heavenly Father. At the resurrection there are only two kinds of people, the unjust and "the just". All men will be resurrected and stand before God in judgment, all "the just" will live with the Heavenly Father in His Kindgom.