Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Scripture is clear being saved is â??not of worksâ?.Sweet so I dont have to do anything? I can now go and cheat on my wife, because after all works wont save us. so that mean they cant damn us either. Christ has paid the price for my adultry. I didnt realize it was so easy johnny.
Lightbearer Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Lightbearer,Enduring to the end is believing the truth to the end. Scripture is clear being saved is â??not of worksâ?.Read the next verse for the fuller meaning, Paul says in â??it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasurePhil.2 ([12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. [13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.)I figured that would be your response, but that brings up another side question, if it is "God doing the works" then who was doing these works:(Acts 10:1-4,34-35) "There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God... Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."Now this was before Cornelius was "converted" so who was doing the good or working righteousness? This brings us back to agency and works... Obedience and righteousness is required of Christ's followers. I think that is why He said straight is the gate and narrow the way and few there be that find it. I can see it is pointless to continue to have a dialogue about this subject for the "divide" is too wide. We are just "talking past" each other.
Zakuska Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 We're not talking passed each other... Johnny just likes chasing his tail.
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 wenglund,Since there is no difference, the only explanation I can give for why my answers may appear different to you than what my Church teaches, is that you don't correctly understand one or either of us.Since there is no difference, the only explanation I can give for why my answers may appear different to you than what my Church teaches, is that you don't correctly understand one or either of us.Please correct my mis-understanding,The above Mormon teachings indicate that â??we must do our partâ? and â??we must do all that the Saviour commands usâ? to live with our Heavenly Father. This indicates that we must do works in order living with our Heavenly Father. Earlier I asked â??Is God's grace enough for salvation?â? and you said â??absolutelyâ?. For me your response is different than what the Mormon Churc teaches:- Mormon Church says: we must do our part- wenglund says: grace is enoughWhat is your definition of grace â?¦ does grace involving doing our part like the Mormon Church teaches?The Bible says the following about grace and works:Rom.11([6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.Please feel free to answer the questions I have asked which you have conveniently evaded.Please list the questions you would like me to answer.
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra... Sweet so I dont have to do anything? I can now go and cheat on my wife, because after all works wont save us. so that mean they cant damn us either. Christ has paid the price for my adultry. I didnt realize it was so easy johnny.Paul would say â??God forbidâ? (see Romans 6 below),Rom.6 ([1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?)
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Lightbearer I figured that would be your response, but that brings up another side question, if it is "God doing the works" then who was doing these works: Now this was before Cornelius was "converted" so who was doing the good or working righteousness?God does the good works. The spirit can still guide a person prior to their conversion.This brings us back to agency and works... Obedience and righteousness is required of Christ's followers. I think that is why He said straight is the gate and narrow the way and few there be that find it. I can see it is pointless to continue to have a dialogue about this subject for the "divide" is too wide. We are just "talking past" each other.Which verse reveals â??Obedience and righteousness is required of Christ's followers.â? like you have stated?The faithful obey Christ command to love because they love him. The faithful do good because they are saved; not in order to get saved.
Zakuska Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 LA LA LA LA LA I can't hear you... you are typing too much!1 Jn. 3: 7, 10, 12 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. • • • 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. • • • 12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra... Paul would say â??God forbidâ? (see Romans 6 below),Rom.6 ([1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?[2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?)So then I need to change my ways? isnt that doing something?God does the good works.So then I no longer have agency? I cant chose to do good works on my own then? If I mow my brothers lawn is that then God mowing my lawn. In other words did God make me mow my brothers lawn?
Fig-bearing Thistle Posted July 9, 2008 Author Posted July 9, 2008 Fig-bearing This...,There ARE NOT different kingdoms for the saved. The more obedient DO NOT receive a different kingdom than the less obedient.After Final Judgment all the saved have the glory of the Father and will live with our Heavenly Father. At the resurrection there are only two kinds of people, the unjust and "the just". All men will be resurrected and stand before God in judgment, all "the just" will live with the Heavenly Father in His Kindgom.Thanks, I think I am pretty clear on what you believe.Where there are degrees of faith and belief, there are degrees of grace.1 Cor. 15:40-43 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
LifeOnaPlate Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Lightbearer God does the good works.Why, then, doesn't God do the good works for everyone? As it stands he could eliminate rape, murder, abuse, starvation, inequality, and all other human maladies oppressing the globe.
LifeOnaPlate Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Enduring to the end is believing the truth to the end. Scripture is clear being saved is â??not of worksâ?.
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,So then I need to change my ways? isnt that doing something?It is doing something ...So then I no longer have agency? I cant chose to do good works on my own then?Of course you have agency. If it is on your own then it is not the fruit of the Spirit, it is your fruit. If I mow my brothers lawn is that then God mowing my lawn. In other words did God make me mow my brothers lawn?Pray about it and follow the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, faith ...
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Why, then, doesn't God do the good works for everyone? As it stands he could eliminate rape, murder, abuse, starvation, inequality, and all other human maladies oppressing the globe.Here I have taken from wikipedia exactly what is going on here.A man dissatisfied with his life decided to consult the Bible for guidance. Closing his eyes, he flipped the book open and pointed to a spot on the page. Opening his eyes, he read the verse under his finger. It read, "Then Judas went away and hanged himself" (Matthew 27:5b) Closing his eyes again, the man randomly selected another verse. This one read, "Jesus told him, 'Go and do likewise.'" (Luke 10:37b) This is what I see over and over. Johnny should we all go and hang our selves now?Mola Ram Suda Ra...,Of course you have agency. If it is on your own then it is not the fruit of the Spirit, it is your fruit.It is my fruit? So your saying that every good work that is done is God is doing it or the spirit. That would mean that everyone that does good works is saved. And everyone that doesnt do good works is damned.
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Fig-bearing This...Where there are degrees of faith and belief, there are degrees of grace.1 Cor. 15:40-43The different degrees referenced in 1Cor 15:40,41 are BEFORE the Final Judgment. AFTER the Final Judgment all the just have the glory of Father and their is only ONE kingdom.
Zakuska Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Fig-bearing This...The different degrees referenced in 1Cor 15:40,41 are BEFORE the Final Judgment. AFTER the Final Judgment all the just have the glory of Father and their is only ONE kingdom.A Johhny... AFTER the final Judgment there isnt a Kingdom at all becuase theres a new heaven and a new earth and the Kingdom has passed away."In my Father house there are many mansions."
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 LifeOnaPlate,Why, then, doesn't God do the good works for everyone? As it stands he could eliminate rape, murder, abuse, starvation, inequality, and all other human maladies oppressing the globe.Because God created man with agency ...
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,Johnny should we all go and hang our selves now?I would suggest you pray about it so that you know what God's will is.It is my fruit? So your saying that every good work that is done is God is doing it or the spirit. That would mean that everyone that does good works is saved. And everyone that doesnt do good works is damned.If it is your fruit then it is NOT the fruit of the Spirit. Again good works do not save us, we are saved through faith.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,I would suggest you pray about it so that you know what God's will is.If it is your fruit then it is NOT the fruit of the Spirit. Again good works do not save us, we are saved through faith.What is faith?
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 ZakuskaA Johhny... AFTER the final Judgment there isnt a Kingdom at all becuase theres a new heaven and a new earth and the Kingdom has passed away.Scripture would differ with you,1Cor.15 ([24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.)Matt.6 ([10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.)
Hammer Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 LA LA LA LA LA I can't hear you... you are typing too much!1 Jn. 3: 7, 10, 12 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. â?¢ â?¢ â?¢ 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. â?¢ â?¢ â?¢ 12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brotherâ??s righteous. Exactly. Great references that some want to ignore.
Hammer Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,I would suggest you pray about it so that you know what God's will is.If it is your fruit then it is NOT the fruit of the Spirit. Again good works do not save us, we are saved through faith.NO ONE SAYS WE SAVE OURSELVES THROUGH OUR WORKS!!! BUT THE LORD WILL JUDGE WHO WILL BE SAVED THROUGH HIS POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE WILL DECIDE UPON WHOM WILL BE SAVED-- AND HE WILL JUDGE THEM BY THEIR FRUITS AND WORKS ARE A PART OF THAT FOUNDATION FOR JUDGMENT.I WISH YOU GUYS WOULD GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS THAT IT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE TO CLAIM BEING SAVED THROUGH OUR OWN WORKS, AND SUBMITTING TO OUR GOD THROUGH OBEDIENCE /WORKS UPON OUR FAITH AND BEING JUDGED AS 'FOLLOWING' AND 'PREPARED' FOR THAT SALVATION.
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,What is faith?Faith is the virtue by which we believe in God and believe what he says. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act.. By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,Faith is the virtue by which we believe in God and believe what he says. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act.. By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.How does one "submit his intellect and will to God".
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Hammer,Exactly. Great references that some want to ignore.Those reference are consistent with what I have been saying ...NO ONE SAYS WE SAVE OURSELVES THROUGH OUR WORKS!!! BUT THE LORD WILL JUDGE WHO WILL BE SAVED THROUGH HIS POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE WILL DECIDE UPON WHOM WILL BE SAVED-- AND HE WILL JUDGE THEM BY THEIR FRUITS AND WORKS ARE A PART OF THAT FOUNDATION FOR JUDGMENT.You say that "works are a part", if works are part then it is NOT grace. Your belief is not consistent with scripture which reveals (see below).Rom.11 ([6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. )Eph.2 ([8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.)
johnny Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Mola Ram Suda Ra...,How does one "submit his intellect and will to God".By believing and trusting the words of God ... Jesus said "thy will be done" ... Mary said "be it unto me according to thy word".
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