Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?

[johnny]

Zakuska

You deny we are jugded for our works wether they be good or bad?

I do not deny we will be judged ...

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

So then it is my choice and action to pray then? You may if you wish use a simple yes or no. Thankyou.

Yes ... it is your choice to pray ...

[johnny]

Zakuska,

What us the end of those who don't obey the Gospel?

Those who believe not shall be damned.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

Yes ... it is your choice to pray ...

Thank you.

Is prayer an action?

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

Thank you.

Is prayer an action?

Jesus says prayer in this manner, thy will be done (Matt 6:9). Make your request known unto God (Phil 4:6), believing you shall receive (Matt 21:22), he fills you with the knowledge of his will (Col 1:9). According to his divine power he gives all things that pertain unto life and godliness (2Pet 1:3), the Father that dwells in us does the works (John 14:10). We can nothing without Chist (John 15:5). If we are led of the spirit, we walk in the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit is love (Gal 5:16). Below are the associated scriptures:

• Matt.6 ([9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. [33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.)
  
• Phil.4 ([6] Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.)
  
• Matt.21 ([22] And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.)
  
• Col.1 ([9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;)
  
• 2Pet.1 ([3] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
  
• John.14 ([10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. [12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.)
  
• Gal.5 ([16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. [18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. )
  
• John.15 ([5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.)
  

[Tanyan]

So we work in concert with GOD by way of Love, Faithfulness and Obedience.

[Lightbearer]

Lightbearer

God does the good works. The spirit can still guide a person prior to their conversion.

Which verse reveals â??Obedience and righteousness is required of Christ's followers.â? like you have stated?

The faithful obey Christ command to love because they love him.

The faithful do good because they are saved; not in order to get saved.

Whew! I feel like I am part of a "tag team battle royal wrestling match"! I think after reading the intervening pages I finally "get" where you are coming from. The following is a recap:

You believe that:

• We are not saved because we are Obedient to God's commandments.
  
• We are saved by "grace alone" and that we receive this grace through faith or rather belief alone without any other actions on our part.
  
• Good works come about because we have surrendered our will totally to God and He is the one who does any good works (even before we surrender our will, as in the example I gave of Cornelius) and we are mere "puppets" in the hands of God.
  
• God created us and placed us in the garden where He also made it possible to fall (by allowing Satan access to the garden) and putting the forbidden fruit in the center of the garden.
  
• After "setting man up" He allowed us (because of agency) to fall.
  
• This fall brought about sin and death... so God also realized the big mistake He had made and so He provided a savior...
  
• First to get man's attention He sent forth Prophets to teach fallen man the "Laws of God" and commanded their obedience (knowing full well it was impossible for man to obey these commandments) So now things had become even worse because now man could not on their own keep the commandments... and was damned even further.
  
• So He sent Christ to be crucified for the sins of mankind.
  
• The only thing necessary for access to this free gift of grace was to only accept Christ and surrender their will to God... thus God became the agent of each "saved" person to do "good works" or to bear fruit.
  
• So really, if this is true then all Christians should be perfect, because God is perfect... but wait we still have free will to sin!
  
• If we sin after we have thus turned our will over to God... then, then,...
  

That is where you loose me in you logic... If Christ did not expect us to obey His commandments after becoming His disciple then why all His teachings on righteousness? Why send the Apostles? Why did they write to the Church, if God was doing all the works of righteousness? Why the exhortations to follow the examples of the apostles and of Jesus Himself? Why not just say BELIEVE IN CHRIST and make that the end of writing?

To answer your question, "where in scripture does it say we must keep the commandments" I give you the following:

(Ecclesiastes 12:13-14) "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

Is that enough or maybe you do not believe it because it was written in the Old Testament? Try this on for size:

(Revelation 20:11-13) "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Another thought why are we judged for our good works if God is really the only one who does the good works? Also another quote:

(Revelation 14:12-13) "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

Note here it says "their works do follow them." Now if we look into the context I do not think that he is talking about evil works... but good works.

(Revelation 3:1-6) "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Why is John calling the members of these Churches to repentance? If they need not live in obedience to the commandments then why the rebuke? Why the praise of those who "overcame" sin? The entire purpose of the Church is to "perfect the Saints" or the members of the Church. Either the tree is good or it is corrupt... we seek to "overcome the world" through the atonement of Christ and the covenant we must obey which is the conditions God has given to those who seek His kingdom.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...

Jesus says prayer in this manner, thy will be done (Matt 6:9). Make your request known unto God (Phil 4:6), believing you shall receive (Matt 21:22), he fills you with the knowledge of his will (Col 1:9). According to his divine power he gives all things that pertain unto life and godliness (2Pet 1:3), the Father that dwells in us does the works (John 14:10). We can nothing without Chist (John 15:5). If we are led of the spirit, we walk in the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit is love (Gal 5:16). Below are the associated scriptures:

• Matt.6 ([9] After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. [33] But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.)
  
• Phil.4 ([6] Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.)
  
• Matt.21 ([22] And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.)
  
• Col.1 ([9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;)
  
• 2Pet.1 ([3] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
  
• John.14 ([10] Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. [12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.)
  
• Gal.5 ([16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. [18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. )
  
• John.15 ([5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.)
  

So prayer isnt an action?

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...,

So prayer isnt an action?

The Spriit promping you to pray is an action ... you asking in prayer is an action â?¦ the indwelling Father doing the work through you is an action â?¦

[johnny]

Lightbearer,

You believe that:

You really distorted what I believe, below are few corrections

YOU: We are not saved because we are Obedient to God's commandments.

ME: I did not say that â?¦

YOU: We are saved by "grace alone" and that we receive this grace through faith or rather belief alone without any other actions on our part.

ME: We are saved by grace through faith

YOU: Good works come about because we have surrendered our will totally to God and He is the one who does any good works (even before we surrender our will, as in the example I gave of Cornelius) and we are mere "puppets" in the hands of God.

ME: We are not â??puppetsâ?, we have free will

YOU: God created us and placed us in the garden where He also made it possible to fall (by allowing Satan access to the garden) and putting the forbidden fruit in the center of the garden.

ME: he made man it possible for man to exercise his free will

YOU: After "setting man up" He allowed us (because of agency) to fall.

ME: God did not set up man

YOU: This fall brought about sin and death... so God also realized the big mistake He had made and so He provided a savior...

ME: God did not make a big mistake

YOU: The only thing necessary for access to this free gift of grace was to only accept Christ and surrender their will to God... thus God became the agent of each "saved" person to do "good works" or to bear fruit.

ME: Jesus is the vine

YOU: So really, if this is true then all Christians should be perfect, because God is perfect... but wait we still have free will to sin!

ME: All Christians are not perfect because not all Christians do the will of the Father

YOU: If we sin after we have thus turned our will over to God... then, then,...

ME: You fall from grace.

That is where you loose me in you logic... If Christ did not expect us to obey His commandments after becoming His disciple then why all His teachings on righteousness? Why send the Apostles? Why did they write to the Church, if God was doing all the works of righteousness? Why the exhortations to follow the examples of the apostles and of Jesus Himself? Why not just say BELIEVE IN CHRIST and make that the end of writing?

Christ wants us to obey his commandments. We follow the example of Jesus, the Father that dwelt in Jesus did the works. We believe Jesus when he says the Father was in him.

To answer your question, "where in scripture does it say we must keep the commandments" I give you the following:

We keep his commandments because we love him, we do not do his commandments to be saved. Every manâ??s work will be judged. Good work is God doing the work through us. Dead work is the work of the flesh instead the work of the Sprit.

Saints need to repent of dead works, works of the flesh. The saints move on to perfection through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

[wenglund]

wenglund,

I am not following you, to help be better understand what your points are please explain it in a different manner. We come from different backgrounds and I am simply not following you.

It is easier if you simply just list the questions that you want me to answer ... thanks.

I have explained things as simply as I know how, so I am not sure it would do any good to say any more to you on the matter, nor would there be much point in me re-asking you questions that you likely also don't understand and won't answer as before. I am okay with you not getting what I have said.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[LifeOnaPlate]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...,

The Spriit promping you to pray is an action ... you asking in prayer is an action â?¦ the indwelling Father doing the work through you is an action â?¦

So again, we all essentially become puppets of God, who seems to choose at random whom to inspire?

[johnny]

LifeOnaPlate,

So again, we all essentially become puppets of God, who seems to choose at random whom to inspire?

We have a choice â?¦ puppets do not have a choice â?¦ we are not puppets â?¦

[Lightbearer]

Sorry, I did not intend to distort what you believe, but I tried to reconstruct them from your various posts. Perhaps I did hyperbole on some points but I ask for clarification on the following:

You really distorted what I believe, below are few corrections

YOU: We are not saved because we are Obedient to God's commandments.

ME: I did not say that â?¦

Actually you did, in fact you repeated it in this very post:

We keep his commandments because we love him, we do not do his commandments to be saved.

Isn't that the same thing?

YOU: We are saved by "grace alone" and that we receive this grace through faith or rather belief alone without any other actions on our part.

ME: We are saved by grace through faith

But are you not saying that we are NOT saved by obedience to God?

YOU: Good works come about because we have surrendered our will totally to God and He is the one who does any good works (even before we surrender our will, as in the example I gave of Cornelius) and we are mere "puppets" in the hands of God.

ME: We are not â??puppetsâ?, we have free will

If we have free will then we must have free will to do good! Nobody is arguing that God entices us to do good, and by the way we do it because we love Him, but the net effect is salvation and exaltation.

YOU: The only thing necessary for access to this free gift of grace was to only accept Christ and surrender their will to God... thus God became the agent of each "saved" person to do "good works" or to bear fruit.

ME: Jesus is the vine

Yes and we are the branches, and every branch that does not bring forth fruit is cast into the fire! So obedience is necessary to salvation!

YOU: So really, if this is true then all Christians should be perfect, because God is perfect... but wait we still have free will to sin!

ME: All Christians are not perfect because not all Christians do the will of the Father

Ah, now we are getting somewhere, so the question is are those who do not do the will of the Father saved?

YOU: If we sin after we have thus turned our will over to God... then, then,...

ME: You fall from grace.

So in effect our not sinning after we obtain the grace of Christ, is requisite for us to be saved?

Christ wants us to obey his commandments. We follow the example of Jesus, the Father that dwelt in Jesus did the works. We believe Jesus when he says the Father was in him.

So really your argument is completely illogical, obedience to the commandments is necessary for salvation... You are just arguing that it is God that is doing the obedience... Do you not think that since Christ submitted His will to the Father, then we likewise submit our will to the Father when we keep the commandments because we love God and have His spirit guiding us? That is what we are teaching:

(Mosiah 3:19) "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

Is this doctrine true? If not what is wrong with it?

We keep his commandments because we love him, we do not do his commandments to be saved. Every manâ??s work will be judged. Good work is God doing the work through us. Dead work is the work of the flesh instead the work of the Sprit.

Saints need to repent of dead works, works of the flesh. The saints move on to perfection through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

So how is this any different than the following:

(2 Nephi 31:16-20) "And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved. Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive. And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save. Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."

The question is can the Saints be saved unless they repent of their "dead works" and do works of righteousness?

[LifeOnaPlate]

LifeOnaPlate,

We have a choice â?¦ puppets do not have a choice â?¦ we are not puppets â?¦

You can't have it both ways, my friendly friend. Unless you, like Mormons, believe that our works are prompted but chosen, thus allowing for the grace of God and the agency of man to work together, both being required.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...,

you asking in prayer is an action â?¦

So if prayer is an action that I have a choice in the matter, how is that not a work?

I am not claiming that the work by its self saves some one just that what you have described seems to be a work of some sort. Or is not an action a wrok of some sort even in the most simple terms?

[johnny]

Lightbearer,

Isn't that the same thing?

For me it is not the same thing.

But are you not saying that we are NOT saved by obedience to God?

I am saying we obey Godâ??s commandments because we love him.

If we have free will then we must have free will to do good! Nobody is arguing that God entices us to do good, and by the way we do it because we love Him, but the net effect is salvation and exaltation.

The end effect is that we are saved by grace through faith.

Yes and we are the branches, and every branch that does not bring forth fruit is cast into the fire! So obedience is necessary to salvation!

Read Jesusâ?? parable again, this parable does not lead to the conclusion that â??obedience is necessary to salvationâ?.

Ah, now we are getting somewhere, so the question is are those who do not do the will of the Father saved?

Scripture reveals that those who believe not are damned.

So in effect our not sinning after we obtain the grace of Christ, is requisite for us to be saved?

The requisite is faith, we are saved by grace through faith.

So really your argument is completely illogical, obedience to the commandments is necessary for salvation... You are just arguing that it is God that is doing the obedience... Do you not think that since Christ submitted His will to the Father, then we likewise submit our will to the Father when we keep the commandments because we love God and have His spirit guiding us?

My argument is completely consistent with scripture. We submit our will, but it is the Father who does the good works.

That is what we are teaching:

The Book of Mormon is teaching â??we are saved, after all we can doâ? which is contrary to what Holy Scripture reveals.

The question is can the Saints be saved unless they repent of their "dead works" and do works of righteousness?

According to his mercy he saves, not by works of righteousness (see below):

• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;)
  

[Zakuska]

Resistance is futile...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5OTe8hUAUg

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...,

So if prayer is an action that I have a choice in the matter, how is that not a work?

I am not claiming that the work by its self saves some one just that what you have described seems to be a work of some sort. Or is not an action a wrok of some sort even in the most simple terms?

Scripture would not consider it a work.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...,

Scripture would not consider it a work.

i dont see how that is possible. That is ok I guess we will agree to disagree on this issue.

[Lightbearer]

Lightbearer,

For me it is not the same thing.

I am saying we obey Godâ??s commandments because we love him.

Read Jesusâ?? parable again, this parable does not lead to the conclusion that â??obedience is necessary to salvationâ?.

Scripture reveals that those who believe not are damned.

The requisite is faith, we are saved by grace through faith.

My argument is completely consistent with scripture. We submit our will, but it is the Father who does the good works.

The Book of Mormon is teaching â??we are saved, after all we can doâ? which is contrary to what Holy Scripture reveals.

According to his mercy he saves, not by works of righteousness (see below):

• Titus.3 ([5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;)
  

That is just your private interpretation of the scriptures. Your arguments do not make sense and are not scripturally accurate, (see I can say that too) and the only scripture in the Book of Mormon you want to quote is the "after all we can do." phrase, out of context to try to prove that we do not believe in the grace of Christ. This is an absolute false assertion and I notice that you completely ignore the other quotes. Just as you ignore the quotes from the Bible that state that obedience is required, and try to put your on private spin on it. I wonder why Paul said this:

(1 Corinthians 6:9) "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Christ did not die to excuse us from being holy, but made it possible for us to be holy and without spot. Your brand of Christianity does not allow for the purpose of our creation, to see if we will live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, to see if we will keep the commandments of the Father. But rather your brand seems to dream up a God who punishes for sin, but does not reward for righteous acts... because somehow God has taken over and done the work for us... if so what is the purpose in our creation? If all we can do is sin, of what value are we to God? But the truth is we are His children thus we have the power to overcome the world through faith in the atonement of Christ and we have the ability to conform our will to His and thus be obedient sons. None of us can do this alone and apart from the grace of God, that is what Paul was talking about. We strive to live by Christ's example and through the covenant we make with Him to always remember Him, and keep His commandments we will always have His spirit to be with us... thus making it possible for our obedience. No matter how you want to look at it (God doing the good works or we choosing to follow the prompting of the spirit of God) we must have the faith that brings forth fruit and that our fruit should remain. We cannot be saved in disobedience.

[johnny]

Lightbearer,

That is just your private interpretation of the scriptures.

What is your interpretation of Titus 3:5?

The interpretation I presented is consistent with many other scriptures found in the Bible that reveal the same thing.

Your arguments do not make sense and are not scripturally accurate, (see I can say that too) and the only scripture in the Book of Mormon you want to quote is the "after all we can do." phrase, out of context to try to prove that we do not believe in the grace of Christ.

Please explain how it is out of context. I am not saying you do not believe in the grace of Christ. I am saying you also believe â??after all we can doâ? which is contrary to what the Bible reveals. Why do you continue to distort what I beleive?

This is an absolute false assertion and I notice that you completely ignore the other quotes. Just as you ignore the quotes from the Bible that state that obedience is required, and try to put your on private spin on it.

What quotes are you talking about?

What Bible quotes support the Mormon verses â??we are saved, after all we can doâ??

Clearly Eph 2:8,9 is contrary to this Mormon verse.

Christ did not die to excuse us from being holy, but made it possible for us to be holy and without spot. Your brand of Christianity does not allow for the purpose of our creation, to see if we will live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, to see if we will keep the commandments of the Father.

I would agree Christ did not die to excuse us from being holy. The brand of Christianity I have presented is consistent with what the Bible reveals.

But rather your brand seems to dream up a God who punishes for sin, but does not reward for righteous acts... because somehow God has taken over and done the work for us... if so what is the purpose in our creation? If all we can do is sin, of what value are we to God?

Why do you continue to distort what I believe? I believe God rewards.

But the truth is we are His children thus we have the power to overcome the world through faith in the atonement of Christ and we have the ability to conform our will to His and thus be obedient sons. None of us can do this alone and apart from the grace of God, that is what Paul was talking about.

Why then does Mormon scripture add to and distorts what Paul is talking about with the words â??after all we can doâ??

[Lightbearer]

What is your interpretation of Titus 3:5?

The interpretation I presented is consistent with many other scriptures found in the Bible that reveal the same thing.

Well let us read the passage in context:

(Titus 3:1-8 ) "Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."

The part you underlined was the reference to the Savior's atonement, of which our works had nothing to do, the "washing of regeneration" refers to baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, of course the "renewing of the Holy Ghost" is what we seek when renewing our baptismal covenant with the sacrament. It is how we retain a remission of our sins through our faithful obedience and "maintaining good works." Our good works and obedience to Christ is what proves our faith in Christ and His atonement.

Please explain how it is out of context. I am not saying you do not believe in the grace of Christ. I am saying you also believe â??after all we can doâ? which is contrary to what the Bible reveals. Why do you continue to distort what I beleive?

What quotes are you talking about?

What Bible quotes support the Mormon verses â??we are saved, after all we can doâ??

Clearly Eph 2:8,9 is contrary to this Mormon verse.

I would agree Christ did not die to excuse us from being holy. The brand of Christianity I have presented is consistent with what the Bible reveals.

Why do you continue to distort what I believe? I believe God rewards.

Why then does Mormon scripture add to and distorts what Paul is talking about with the words â??after all we can doâ??

The context for "all we can do" is as follows:

(2 Nephi 25:23-29) "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled. For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments. And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away. And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law. And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out."

That is the context, the people were living the law of Moses (it was not yet fulfilled) and so the "after all we can do" instead of a limitation of Christ's grace, or an exaltation of our works (whether the works of the law of Moses or the law of Christ) as the means of our salvation. Our works as referred to here is not "the means of our salvation" but it is a requirement of that salvation. This is the same principle Paul and the other apostles in the Bible is teaching, our works are not what gives us forgiveness. Yet God will not apply that atonement to us without repentance and abandonment of sin and a pursuit of a righteous course. This is explained in a Conference address:

(Bruce C. Hafen, â??Beauty for Ashes: The Atonement of Jesus Christ,â? Liahona, Apr 1997, 39) "Our reluctance to stress the doctrine of grace is understandable. Nephi wrote, â??For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can doâ? (2 Ne. 25:23; emphasis added). A constant public emphasis on grace might encourage some people to ignore the crucial â??all we can doâ? in that two-part process. They might then accept the erroneous notion that we can be saved by divine grace even while choosing to live in our sins. Some Christians do believe they will be saved by grace in spite of whatever they may do. At the extreme, this doctrine denies free will altogether, implying that God will elect those he will save without regard to their conduct or even their preference.

Similarly, some Church members feel entitled to â??a few free onesâ? as they sow their wild oats and walk constantly along the edge of transgression. Or they believe that repentance requires little more than saying they are sorry. Constant emphasis on the availability of forgiveness can be counterproductive in such cases, suggestingâ??wronglyâ??that they can â??live it upâ? now and repent easily later without harmful consequences.

Despite these reasons for caution, the blessing of making the Atonement more central to our lives outweighs any associated risks. When we habitually understate the Atonementâ??s broad meaning, we do more harm than leaving one another without comforting reassurancesâ??for some may simply drop out of the race, weighed down beyond the breaking point with self-doubt and spiritual fatigue.

The Savior himself was not concerned that he would seem too forgiving or soft on sin. Said he, â??Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. â?¦ For my yoke is easy, and my burden is lightâ? (Matt. 11:28, 30). He spoke these comforting words in the context of asking his followers to develop a love pure enough to extinguish hatred, lust, and anger. His yoke is easyâ??but he asks for all our hearts.

His words do not describe an event, but a process. He does not request the answer to a yes-or-no question, but an essay, written in the winding trail of our experience. As we move along that trail, we will find that he is not only aware of our limitations, but that he will also in due course compensate for them, â??after all we can do.â? That, in addition to forgiveness for sin, is a crucial part of the good news of the gospel, part of the victory, part of the Atonement."

I hope this explains and shows that we are not disagreeing with Paul or the Bible, just the interpretation you seem to be giving (I am trying to not distort what you say you believe) to Paul's words. As mentioned above in the talk, it seems to be one of emphasis, how does God requiring us to repent (meaning to turn from sin) and do according to His will detract from the grace and mercy of God? It goes back to what James teaches:

(James 2:17-20) "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Or what is the meaning of Paul's words here:

(1 Corinthians 9:24-27) "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

What is he talking about if obedience is of no importance?

[johnny]

Lightbearer,

The part you underlined was the reference to the Savior's atonement, of which our works had nothing to do, the "washing of regeneration" refers to baptism and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, of course the "renewing of the Holy Ghost" is what we seek when renewing our baptismal covenant with the sacrament. It is how we retain a remission of our sins through our faithful obedience and "maintaining good works." Our good works and obedience to Christ is what proves our faith in Christ and His atonement.

In context, Titus 3:1-8 does not support your words â??Our good works and obedience to Christ is what proves our faith in Christ and His atonement.â? â?¦ it simply reveals to maintain good works, they are good and profitable.

That is the context, the people were living the law of Moses (it was not yet fulfilled) and so the "after all we can do" instead of a limitation of Christ's grace, or an exaltation of our works (whether the works of the law of Moses or the law of Christ) as the means of our salvation. Our works as referred to here is not "the means of our salvation" but it is a requirement of that salvation. This is the same principle Paul and the other apostles in the Bible is teaching, our works are not what gives us forgiveness. Yet God will not apply that atonement to us without repentance and abandonment of sin and a pursuit of a righteous course.

Where does the Bible reveal the principal that â??Our works as referred to here is not â??the means of our salvationâ?? but it is a requirement of that salvationâ? as you have stated?

I hope this explains and shows that we are not disagreeing with Paul or the Bible, just the interpretation you seem to be giving (I am trying to not distort what you say you believe) to Paul's words. As mentioned above in the talk, it seems to be one of emphasis, how does God requiring us to repent (meaning to turn from sin) and do according to His will detract from the grace and mercy of God?

It does not explain how the Mormon verse is consistent with the Bible, it mentions Matt 11:28,30 but this does not support the words â??after all can doâ?.

Could you please provide some Bible verses to show that you are not disagreeing with Paul or the Bible, so far you have only provided menâ??s words.

It goes back to what James teaches:

James 2:17-29 is simply talking about dead works, it is not talking about being saved â??after all can doâ?.

What is he talking about if obedience is of no importance?

1Cor 9:24-27 is not talking â??obedienceâ?, he is talking about exercising discipline.

You have not shown any Bible verses that would support the Mormon verses â??we are saved, after all we can doâ?

[Zakuska]

"Our good works and obedience to Christ is what proves our faith in Christ and His atonement."

2 Cor 13

4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.