Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?

[Zakuska]

God's mercy and love are required. He gives grace to the humble.

And ordains them unto Good works...

Eph 2

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Lightbearer]

Hang on to you false idea of grace alone, but it is not a doctrine of the Bible. What think ye of this:

(1 John 2:1-6) "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

How does this fit into the "saved by grace alone" fantasy?

[johnny]

Lightbearer,

How does this fit into the "saved by grace alone" fantasy?

It fit's nicely because it is God which works in us do his will (see verses below):

1Cor.12 ([6] And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.)

Phil.2 ([13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.)

[Lightbearer]

Lightbearer,

It fit's nicely because it is God which works in us do his will (see verses below):

1Cor.12 ([6] And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.)

Phil.2 ([13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.)

In other words you are saying that we have no agency? That is a nice excuse but the question is if it is God "doing the works" then why John's warning? Is he warning God? and what about this one:

(2 Peter 2:9-22) "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with manâ??s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Who is Peter talking about? Are these not Saints who have turned away from righteousness? Was God working in them when they did that? Satan? Or do they have free will to act and not be acted upon? Does not the atonement of Christ make us all free to choose? When we choose to sin we become servants of sin, when we choose to follow Christ then we are the servants of Christ.

[johnny]

Lightbearer,

In other words you are saying that we have no agency? That is a nice excuse but the question is if it is God "doing the works" then why John's warning? Is he warning God? and what about this one:

Of course we have agency, men can allow God to work in them or not allow God to work in them. Men can accept God's grace or reject his grace.

Who is Peter talking about? Are these not Saints who have turned away from righteousness? Was God working in them when they did that? Satan? Or do they have free will to act and not be acted upon? Does not the atonement of Christ make us all free to choose? When we choose to sin we become servants of sin, when we choose to follow Christ then we are the servants of Christ.

Men have free will to act, they can become servants of Christ or not be his servants.

[Zakuska]

Lightbearer,

Of course we have agency, men can allow God to work in them or not allow God to work in them. Men can accept God's grace or reject his grace.

Men have free will to act, they can become servants of Christ or not be his servants.

EXACLY...which makes who the ultimate determiner of ones fate and savedness?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...,

God's mercy and love are required. He gives grace to the humble.

Eph.2 ([4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) [6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: [7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast)

1Pet.5 ([5] Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.)

2Tim.1 ( [9] Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,)

So then you are claiming that God's mercy and love are required of Grace, but in the next breath I need to be humble. What does that mean?

[Zakuska]

Paul and Isaiah already answered the question for us:

Romans 10

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Apparently the Gospel must be heard and obeyed for one to be saved.

[Lightbearer]

So then you are claiming that God's mercy and love are required of Grace, but in the next breath I need to be humble. What does that mean?

It's called Evangelical doublespeak.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It's called Evangelical doublespeak.

I thought Johnny was a Catholic. Perhaps I am way wrong here.

[Lightbearer]

Lightbearer,

Of course we have agency, men can allow God to work in them or not allow God to work in them. Men can accept God's grace or reject his grace.

Men have free will to act, they can become servants of Christ or not be his servants.

That is exactly what I am saying, only if we are the servant of Christ then we will obey Him correct? If we obey, then is it our obedience or is it God's? How do you reject God's grace if not through disobedience? Do you see my meaning? If we yield unto the enticings of the spirit of God we will "put off the natural man and become a Saint through the atonement of Christ." If we do that, then is it our will or is it God's will? Or have we simply obeyed God? What do you think of the following scripture:

(Mosiah 3:19) "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

Do you agree with this?

[Zakuska]

Not to answer for Johnny, But he doesn't consider that scripture... even though it is true and pretty much covers everything Johnny has said. Especially the part about being humble.

[Billy]

That is exactly what I am saying, only if we are the servant of Christ then we will obey Him correct?

This brings us full circle

D and C 1

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

Should you obey all of God's commandments?

Does God give a commandment that you can't keep?

Do YOU keep all of God's commandments?

Do YOU vow to keep all his commandments every week during the sacrament?

According to D and C 1:32 unless you "does the commandments" you will not be forgiven.

[Zakuska]

This brings us full circle

D and C 1

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

Should you obey all of God's commandments?

Does God give a commandment that you can't keep?

Do YOU keep all of God's commandments?

Do YOU vow to keep all his commandments every week during the sacrament?

According to D and C 1:32 unless you "does the commandments" you will not be forgiven.

You sure your not confusing that with Ezekiel?

Ezekiel 18

19

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This brings us full circle

D and C 1

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

Should you obey all of God's commandments?

Does God give a commandment that you can't keep?

Do YOU keep all of God's commandments?

Do YOU vow to keep all his commandments every week during the sacrament?

According to D and C 1:32 unless you "does the commandments" you will not be forgiven.

Um Billy, This is pretty straight forward. And it is between you and the Lord.

[Lightbearer]

This brings us full circle

D and C 1

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

Should you obey all of God's commandments?

Does God give a commandment that you can't keep?

Do YOU keep all of God's commandments?

Do YOU vow to keep all his commandments every week during the sacrament?

According to D and C 1:32 unless you "does the commandments" you will not be forgiven.

It does doesn't it. The answer is YES you should obey all of God's commandments... No God gives us the ability to keep His commandments... I try to keep all of His commandments... Yes I do covenant to keep all his commandments every week when I partake of the sacrament... That is the reason that we renew the covenant every week. Repentance is a lifelong process and if we will come unto Christ His grace is sufficient for us if we come unto Him:

(Ether 12:27) "And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them."

Conversion and baptism is just the door or gate to the path that leads to Eternal life. Once we get on the strait and narrow path which leads to Eternal life, we must press forward with a faith in Christ and endure to the end. We must fight the good fight, we must finish the course, we must keep the faith. Only then do we receive the crown of Eternal life, that greatest of all of God's gifts. The following is a good summary of how to obtain that gift:

(Moroni 10:32-33) "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

That is our faith, that is how we "overcome the world" through faith in Christ.

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...,

So then you are claiming that God's mercy and love are required of Grace, but in the next breath I need to be humble. What does that mean?

It means to be like Mary ...when the angel came to her, Mary said "be it unto me according to thy word".

Lightbearer,

That is exactly what I am saying, only if we are the servant of Christ then we will obey Him correct? If we obey, then is it our obedience or is it God's? How do you reject God's grace if not through disobedience? Do you see my meaning? If we yield unto the enticings of the spirit of God we will "put off the natural man and become a Saint through the atonement of Christ." If we do that, then is it our will or is it God's will? Or have we simply obeyed God?

If we are a servant of God then we will be like Christ and say "thy will be done". It is our choice to do his will or to do our will. If we keep his commandments, we shall abide in his love, without him we can do nothing.

It does doesn't it. The answer is YES you should obey all of God's commandments... No God gives us the ability to keep His commandments... I try to keep all of His commandments... Yes I do covenant to keep all his commandments every week when I partake of the sacrament... That is the reason that we renew the covenant every week. Repentance is a lifelong process and if we will come unto Christ His grace is sufficient for us if we come unto Him:

The disciples of Christ keep Jesus' commandments, Jesus did NOT command his disciples to marry and have children like the Mormon Church commands. Mormon disciples obey Mormon commands.

That is our faith, that is how we "overcome the world" through faith in Christ.

The Mormon faith is different than the faith of Christ's apostles. Christ's apostles taught "by grace are ye saved through faith". The Mormon faith perverts this teaching by adding the words "after all we can do".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...,It means to be like Mary ...when the angel came to her, Mary said "be it unto me according to thy word".

Huh? This makes absolutly no sense. Care to expaound on it.

Lightbearer,If we are a servant of God then we will be like Christ and say "thy will be done". It is our choice to do his will or to do our will. If we keep his commandments, we shall abide in his love, without him we can do nothing.The disciples of Christ keep Jesus' commandments, Jesus did NOT command his disciples to marry and have children like the Mormon Church commands. Mormon disciples obey Mormon commands.The Mormon faith is different than the faith of Christ's apostles. Christ's apostles taught "by grace are ye saved through faith". The Mormon faith perverts this teaching by adding the words "after all we can do".

Johnny You are not making any sense here either. God commanded Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth. Did that command stop with Adam and Eve?

You wanna knwo all we can do is to repent and keep trying. I dont know about you but what do you think "all we can do" means?

[Zakuska]

The disciples of Christ keep Jesus' commandments, Jesus did NOT command his disciples to marry and have children like the Mormon Church commands. Mormon disciples obey Mormon commands.

yes he did...

Matt. 19: 5

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Mark 10: 7

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

Eph. 5: 31

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

1 Cor 9:5

5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 6 Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? 7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?

The Mormon faith is different than the faith of Christ's apostles. Christ's apostles taught "by grace are ye saved through faith". The Mormon faith perverts this teaching by adding the words "after all we can do".

So did Paul... "We are the workmanship of Christ ordained unto good work, that we should walk in them"

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So did Paul... "We are the workmanship of Christ ordained unto good work, that we should walk in them"

But they arent required. I love these threads. Around and around they go. I have dejavu now. I even have dajavu that I have dajavu. That is how bad this is.

[Zakuska]

We all know what Christ did to the fruitless fig tree. I wouldn't say they aren't required.

I predict Johhny will bring up the Eunuch Scripture.

[johnny]

Mola Ram Suda Ra...,

Huh? This makes absolutly no sense. Care to expaound on it.

Think of it in terms of the parable of the vine (see John 15 below). Mary brought fruit because she abided in the words of God, without God's love and mercy she could not do nothing. When the angel came to Mary she was humble and said "let it unto me according to thy word" (see Luke 1 below)

John.15 ([1] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. [3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. [9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. [10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. [12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.)

Luke.1 ([28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. [31] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: [33] And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34] Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? [35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. [36] And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. [37] For with God nothing shall be impossible. [38] And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. [39] And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;)

Johnny You are not making any sense here either. God commanded Adam and Eve to multiply and replenish the earth. Did that command stop with Adam and Eve?

This is not a command, it was a blessing (see verse below), he also gave this blessing to the whales.

Gen.1 ([21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. [27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.)

You wanna knwo all we can do is to repent and keep trying. I dont know about you but what do you think "all we can do" means?

Elder Boyd K. Packer explained it this way in Chapter 12 the Mormon teaching manual Gospel Principles:

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-18,00.html

"Elder Boyd K. Packer of the Council of the Twelve gave the following illustration to show how Christ's atonement makes it possible to be saved from sin if we do our part. ... 'The creditor replied, 'Mercy is always so one-sided. It would serve only you. If I show mercy to you, it will leave me unpaid. It is justice I demand. Do you believe in justice? ... 'It is justice that demands that you pay the contract or suffer the penalty,' the creditor replied. 'That is the law. You have agreed to it and that is the way it must be. Mercy cannot rob justice. ... There is a way! The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extended--but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time ... Then,' said the benefactor, 'you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison. ... The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was satisfied"

[Zakuska]

Sure sounds like it was more than a "Blessing" to me...

Deut. 8: 1

1 All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers.

Deut. 30: 16

16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

[johnny]

Zakuska,

> Jesus did NOT command his disciples to marry and have children

yes he did...

Which of those verse commands us to marry like the Mormon Church does?

The Mormon Gospel Principles says "". . . each of us has been commanded to marry and have children so that through our own experience we can learn to be heavenly parents." (see link below):

Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 36

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-46,00.html

So did Paul... "We are the workmanship of Christ ordained unto good work, that we should walk in them"

We should walk in love, Paul is not saying that we should walk in the commandments that the Mormon Church teaches.

Sure sounds like it was more than a "Blessing" to me...

Clearing scripture says "blessing" ...he gave the blessing to the whales also.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Of course we have agency, men can allow God to work in them or not allow God to work in them. Men can accept God's grace or reject his grace.

Men have free will to act, they can become servants of Christ or not be his servants.

If as you say, Men can accept God's grace, or reject it, this implies that input from us is needed in order to be saved.

But if your definition of grace is correct that God and God alone saves, and no act of ourselves can be involved or it isn't grace, then we truly don't have any free will at all.