Phinehas Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/com...mp;Select.y=4#1For we are his workmanship (Eph 2:10),The Greek word translated workmanship is poiema, from which we get our English word poem. You are His work. You are His poem. A poem is a thing of grace, a thing of beauty. God wants your life to be a thing of grace and a thing of beauty. And as God works in your life, it will become a thing of grace and of beauty; you are His poem.The poet seeks to express Himself in beautiful terms. He seeks to express beauty in attractive terms. God is seeking to express Himself, and your life becomes that expression as God works in you. You are His work, as God works in your life conforming you into the image of Jesus Christ, you then become the revelation of God to the world around you--the expression of God.
consiglieri Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Why is "obedience" such a dirty word to some Christians?
Phinehas Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 John goes much further than that...John 14: 1212 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. What greater work is there than doing temple work for the dead who are in the pit where there is no water for them to be baptized.?! Telling people about Jesus, who are living, for starters
Billy Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Why is "obedience" such a dirty word to some Christians?I think obedience is a great wordThe OP states "Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?"I think that most LDS members would agree that 0% obedience won't get you into the celestial kingdom. I have asked several times, but nobody seems to have an answer, what percentage is required as a minimum for exaltation. Is 100% obedience required? Or will a lesser amount do?Can a smoker who tries to quit, even after all he or she can do, go to the temple and to the celestial kingdom, if he or she never quits?
consiglieri Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 I think obedience is a great wordThe OP states "Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?"I think that most LDS members would agree that 0% obedience won't get you into the celestial kingdom. I have asked several times, but nobody seems to have an answer, what percentage is required as a minimum for exaltation. Is 100% obedience required? Or will a lesser amount do?Can a smoker who tries to quit, even after all he or she can do, go to the temple and to the celestial kingdom, if he or she never quits?Hi, Billy!I am glad you do not think "obedience" is a dirty word.I think most Christians of any stripe would agree that 0% obedience won't get you into heaven.Is 100% obedience required for the celestial kingdom? It would be an empty kingdom indeed if that were the case.A lesser amount will have to do if anyone is to go there, I would think.And as to your question regarding a smoker who tries to quit, but cannot . . . I don't know if they can go to the temple, but I sure as hell think they can go to the celestial kingdom.Of course, they will have do their smoking at least 25-feet from the exit.All the Best!--Consiglieri
Zakuska Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Telling people about Jesus, who are living, for startersWhich is why the church sends out how many missionaries each year world wide?PS. Luckily God will be the Judge at what % of fruit he is looking for from the trees in his Garden. Think of the Parable of the Talents.
Earl Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Obedience carries heavy baggage. Its first cousins are force, coersion, control, mindlessness, rote, heartlessness, and fear. Hardly positive and long-term motivators for spiritual progress and achievment. Within the right context and the right dosage, obedience lights the path for overcoming the natural man and achieving righteousness. I just feel that the LDS leadership has written the wrong dosage on the perscription and the patient now suffers from unhealthy side effects. Or, just refuses to take the medicine. That is why I personally find the Master Physician's dosage as written in the Gospels so healing to the soul. He got it right - no baggage and no side effects. Earl
Zakuska Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Yeah... I know what you mean...Rom. 6: 16 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Avatar4321 Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 I believe that Joseph left out a word at the end of the statement, "after all we can do"... NOTHING... IMHOYou dont have power to be baptized? You can't pray? You can't testify of Christ? You can't recieve the Holy Ghost?Seems to me there are lots of things we can do.
Avatar4321 Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Why is "obedience" such a dirty word to some Christians?My guess is because it interupts their weekend plans.
ERayR Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Can you be saved by obeying some of the commandments?What percentage of the commandments do you need to obey for exaltation? 50-60-70---100%?What if "all that I can do" is only obeying 20%, is that ok if thats really all I can do?Can I be exalted if I don't pay tithing?Can I be exalted if I don't obey the Word of Wisdom?Can I be exalted if I don't attend weekly church services?"What assures one of exaltaion" according to Spencer W Kimball in the quote below?Miracle of Forgiveness page 208-209"Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men.This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us. In his Sermon on the Mount he made the command to all men: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48.) Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal."Billy: Why can't you just answer the question of the OP. You always start to dodge and weave with questions. Aw Gee Billy just stand up and be a man just once and answer the #%# question. Your dodge and weave gets irritating.
Billy Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Billy: Why can't you just answer the question of the OP. You always start to dodge and weave with questions. Aw Gee Billy just stand up and be a man just once and answer the #%# question. Your dodge and weave gets irritating.Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?Yes. 1. Thief on the cross2. Age under accountability3. Retarded person
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?Yes. 1. Thief on the cross2. Age under accountability3. Retarded personTheif on the cross is not valid. I really dont want to have to rehash this. Do I Billy? Is paradise heaven?Edit: Ultiamtly I couldnt say one way or the other if the thief were to be saved as I am not the judge, Jesus just didnt say that the thief would be in Heaven with Him on the marrow.One other thing Billy, 2 out of 3 isnt bad to agree on. Thanks for making me think a little here.
Billy Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Theif on the cross is not valid. I really dont want to have to rehash this. Do I Billy? Is paradise heaven?Where do the righteous go after they die prior to their resurrection? (Notice it also requires ordinances to be performed)Luke 23 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.Gospel PrinciplesParadiseAccording to the prophet Alma, the righteous spirits rest from earthly care and sorrow.Spirit PrisonIn the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may prepare themselves to leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.
Zakuska Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Doesn't mean the theif didn't have a short stint in Prison where Christ taught him the Gospel. And he was released, by proxy baptism.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Doesn't mean the theif didn't have a short stint in Prison where Christ taught him the Gospel. And he was released, by proxy baptism. Amen to that.
johndoe Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 I well realize that many within the Church disagree with my opinion ... however, ... my feeling is that the much stonger contemporary teaching of works and obedience coupled with the emphasis of "temple ready worthiness" contributes to a subtle and silent pride among the saints. The TR interview, in my opinion, seems to measure church loyalty, not worthiness. Accordingly, the saints triumph in loyalty - hardly a transforming state.I largely agree with this statement, though I think a much more pervasive problem in the church is the flipside of this particular coin - i.e. the folks who feel that they have so many defects that are so hard for them to change that they will never be worthy enough to make it into the celestial kingdom. I had a missionary companion who was at least periodically tormented by this type of thinking.As for the obedience/works emphasis being a contemporary artefact, I suppose it depends on how far back you consider contemporary. Currently, I feel that the general church leadership has the doctrine spot on, but their teachings are often viewed through the lenses of "mormon culture" and therefore subtely misunderstood. I seem to recall that one of the authorities recently expressed the desire that everyone would read certain works, including Believing Christ, by Stephen Robinson. It may have been Elder Oaks, but I can't find the reference.In practice, it seems to me that most LDS are so obsessive about works that any talk of grace immediately puts many on the defensive. And EVs are so obsessive about grace that any mention of works does the same to them. Sometimes it makes me want to pull my hair out.
Billy Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Doesn't mean the theif didn't have a short stint in Prison where Christ taught him the Gospel. And he was released, by proxy baptism.Did the proxy baptism take place that day? Who did this proxy baptism? Any scriptural evidence for this in Bible, B of M, D and C, or P of GP
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Did the proxy baptism take place that day? Who did this proxy baptism? Any scriptural evidence for this in Bible, B of M, D and C, or P of GPWell shoot Billy. All we as LDs Know is that one must be baptised either here on this earth or by proxy and every one must accpet or reject it. So did the thief accept it Billy? I cant presume to know the final fate of our thief freind, we just know he wasnt with God the Father in Heaven on the3 marrow.So Billy, do the Evies have any idea what paradise is? It isnt heaven. So what is it? THe LDS know what it is.
furii Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 The standard we are judged by is Jesus Christ. He set the standard did He not? This is why we are all condemned without Him. Only the righteousness of Christ will get you into heaven/CKChrist did set the standard by which we are judged. And none of us alone could measure up purely on our own merits. But your answer did not answer what I was asking for, so let me rephrase and break it up point by point:We will all be judged in the last day. Yes or no.Some will be saved (and I use this term broadly as this means different things to different people) and some will not. Yes or no.What is the deciding factor for who gets to be saved and who doesn't?
furii Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?Yes. 1. Thief on the cross2. Age under accountability3. Retarded personIs your list meant to be comprehensive? Because I notice a suspicious lack on it...namely, you. Do you think you need obedience to be saved?Debates aside for number 1, I think you will find most people agree that there needs to be some level of accountability (whether age, or mental capacity) to be judged. Is that not what the last two imply? However, would that not conversely imply that because we here (or most of us ) are old enough and competent enough to be accountable, there is a standard by which we are judged. If not why?
Zakuska Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Did the proxy baptism take place that day? Who did this proxy baptism? Any scriptural evidence for this in Bible, B of M, D and C, or P of GPShepard of Hermes... you aught to read it sometime. The Apostles themselves.
Billy Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Is your list meant to be comprehensive?How about this one. A person is tracted out in the local neighborhood. He is taught the lessons and accepts the invitation to be baptized into the LDS church. On the day of his baptism he is dunked but upon coming out of the water the stress of the day causes him to have a heart attack and die.This man did not do any works and really was not obedient to the commandments yet because he died. Will this man go to the celestial kingdom despite his life full of riotous living just up to several days prior to his conversion?
Hammer Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Can A Person Be Saved "without" Obedience?Yes. 1. Thief on the cross2. Age under accountability3. Retarded personIsn't repentance an obedient thing? Isn't this what the thief on the cross did essentially?Can one trangress without the law? and if not, what are they being saved from?
Zakuska Posted July 6, 2008 Posted July 6, 2008 Well Id assume that at some point during the Millenium this man would be ressurected and continue on his journey of progression to the highest heaven.Of course you do realize... theres only one person who can really answer your question.
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