Eternal Progression

[Daniel Peterson]

That's indeed a pity.Where does one go when they find out that the "only true church on the face of the earth" isn't true?

Hell.

(Do I get a prize?)

[Russ]

Exacty what do you believe eternity has in store for you Russ?

Do you find surprising no one wants to help you figure out where to best land a blow?

I understand.

If an atheist called me up wanting information about my beliefs just so that he could write an article showing how Christians have "checked their brains at the door" to believe what they do, I can't honestly say I'd be all gung-ho to lend him a hand.

Still, if one is to understand LDS theology one has to go to Mormons to understand whether that be your supposed prophets, apostles, seventy, stakes, wards or members.

Why Mormonism?

Because people matter.

Jesus is real.

The Book of Mormon simply isn't.

[Russ]

Exacty what do you believe eternity has in store for you Russ?

Do you find surprising no one wants to help you figure out where to best land a blow?

When the Bible is largely silent then so am I. Streets of Gold. No more sorrow. Praising God day and night.

I simply do not believe that the LDS religion accurately describes heaven.

In fact, our Bibles tell us that we don't have to be married to another Mormon in the LDS temple to experience eternal life.

That's why I do what I do; in hopes that you might come to know Christ and surrender your life to Him.

[Russ]

Hell.

(Do I get a prize?)

Have a Krispy Kreme on me, Daniel. :-)

But actually, the statement, as you know, was rhetorical.

Mormons who leave the fold after having realized that "religion" isn't something to be trusted ever again, well....y'know.

Hell.

(Do I get a prize?)

What do you believe, Daniel?

Are you one who agrees that men become Gods over other planets so that they'll procreate spirit-children to inhabit those worlds?

May I quote you on my website?

[4truth]

Jerry writes:

Exacty what do you believe eternity has in store for you Russ?

Do you find surprising no one wants to help you figure out where to best land a blow?

If the truth is truly with you, what is there to be afraid of? Why not simply say what you believe and what you don't? Russ has made it clear he doesn't believe as you do. So what? If he's wrong but he truly wants to "get his facts straight" by studying what LDS really believe, what is the harm in helping him get his facts straight?

Anijen writes:

Russ in my own observations of your writings and views you are a anti Mormon and anti Christ

Are you saying one cannot be pro-Christ without being Mormon?

you lead weak people down to hell and cause some to lose or weaken their own beliefs.

Even though your assessment is off, at least you don't mince words.

For those who leave this church because of your writings and or false preachings they would end up atheist or at worse with such a loss of spiritual securement they lose self worth and that is exactly what Satan wants.

Or could it be that Mormonism is itself a deception and Satan wants to keep people deceived... is that not also a possibility? In that case he wins under both scenarios... if one remains a Mormon they remain in deception... if one becomes an atheist, they remain in deception.

If you spent the same amount of time study the scriptures and truly following Christ as you do tearing down the Lords church you would be great like unto Alma the Younger. Repent brother please.

It is only the "Lord's church" if Joseph Smith was telling the truth. The evidence suggests otherwise.

[Flyonthewall]

Russ,

Why don't you spend all your time and effort promoting what you believe to be right and true Didn't Jesus say:

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

He didn't say: "Go try and put out someone else's light"

Here is another Bible verse you should be aware of:

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brotherâ??s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brotherâ??s eye.

You have been answered on this board. The reason you don't get much cooperation here is because of your motives.

6

[Russ]

Russ,

Why don't you spend all your time and effort promoting what you believe to be right and true Didn't Jesus say:

He didn't say: "Go try and put out someone else's light"

Here is another Bible verse you should be aware of:

You have been answered on this board. The reason you don't get much cooperation here is because of your motives.

I do indeed promote what I believe to be right and true.

I believe the Bible to be trustworthy and that it contains all a man needs to receive eternal life.

(I'd link you to places on my website showing it, but it's not allowed.)

Jerry writes:

If the truth is truly with you, what is there to be afraid of? Why not simply say what you believe and what you don't? Russ has made it clear he doesn't believe as you do. So what? If he's wrong but he truly wants to "get his facts straight" by studying what LDS really believe, what is the harm in helping him get his facts straight?

Anijen writes:

Are you saying one cannot be pro-Christ without being Mormon?

Even though your assessment is off, at least you don't mince words.

Or could it be that Mormonism is itself a deception and Satan wants to keep people deceived... is that not also a possibility? In that case he wins under both scenarios... if one remains a Mormon they remain in deception... if one becomes an atheist, they remain in deception.

It is only the "Lord's church" if Joseph Smith was telling the truth. The evidence suggests otherwise.

"If the truth is truly with you, what is there to be afraid of? Why not simply say what you believe and what you don't?"

A- MEN!

[Flyonthewall]

I do indeed promote what I believe to be right and true.

I believe the Bible to be trustworthy and that it contains all a man needs to receive eternal life.

(I'd link you to places on my website showing it, but it's not allowed.)

"If the truth is truly with you, what is there to be afraid of? Why not simply say what you believe and what you don't?"

A- MEN!

What we beleive has already been stated.

Apparently you don't really understand this verse:

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[Russ]

What we beleive has already been stated.

Apparently you don't really understand this verse:

6

[Daniel Peterson]

Are you calling me a dog or a swine?

Is this the sort of response I should expect from you in the future?

Do you think that Jesus was simply advising people not to give holy objects to canines and not to hand pearls over to pigs?

If not, do you think that he was wrong to use such language?

[Eguzkitanedan]

Are you calling me a dog or a swine?

Is this the sort of response I should expect from you in the future?

Come, let us reason. Tell me of your beliefs.

Russ, Jesus said that. I don't think he's calling you either, but instead using a scripture to hammer a point. THE SAINTS AREN'T GOING TO TAKE THEIR SACRED BELIEFS AND PARADE THEM IN FRONT OF THE WORLD. When Jesus was transfigured on the mount and appeared with Elijah and Moses, did he invite all of Jerusalem? No. He took only those few of his disciples who were worthy and had enough faith in him to receive it in the first place. When Jesus resurrected, did he go and dance a jig in front of the Sanhedrim? No, He appeared to those who were willing to accept him and had faith. From an LDS perspective, you don't have enough faith to understand these teachings in their true light. So, is it any surprise no one's shared?

[Flyonthewall]

Are you calling me a dog or a swine?

Is this the sort of response I should expect from you in the future?

Come, let us reason. Tell me of your beliefs.

Do you really not understand the verse? It is part of the Bible, and furthermore, words of the Master.

Let me start you off with this:

I believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

[Russ]

Russ, Jesus said that. I don't think he's calling you either, but instead using a scripture to hammer a point. THE SAINTS AREN'T GOING TO TAKE THEIR SACRED BELIEFS AND PARADE THEM IN FRONT OF THE WORLD. When Jesus was transfigured on the mount and appeared with Elijah and Moses, did he invite all of Jerusalem? No. He took only those few of his disciples who were worthy and had enough faith in him to receive it in the first place. When Jesus resurrected, did he go and dance a jig in front of the Sanhedrim? No, He appeared to those who were willing to accept him and had faith. From an LDS perspective, you don't have enough faith to understand these teachings in their true light. So, is it any surprise no one's shared?

Why?

Because I don't have enough faith?

Am I less-than-worthy?

Are you more worthy?

Come, I'm asking you what you believe. As stated earlier: if you have the truth then present it to me. I'm not asking you nor Jesus to "dance a jig." Do you think we can all do without such rhetoric?

Do you think that Jesus was simply advising people not to give holy objects to canines and not to hand pearls over to pigs?

If not, do you think that he was wrong to use such language?

And off we go into another realm.

Daniel Peterson, I want to know what you believe.

[Daniel Peterson]

Daniel Peterson, I want to know what you believe.

You want to attack what I believe.

I've published hundreds and hundreds of pages on the subject. You're entirely welcome to read them.

I was surprised, though, that you condemned Jesus' manner of criticizing some of the people of his day. I wouldn't have expected that from a fundamentalist or evangelical Protestant, which is what I had understood you to be.

[Russ]

You want to attack what I believe.

I've made no bones about that, Daniel. I stated that at the outset. I'm going to write an article comparing your beliefs to that of Christian beliefs.

We've been invited to do so by your very own authorities:

My website challenges the claims of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also known as the Mormon Church or "LDS") and seeks to lead them to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. We are invited to do so by LDS leaders:

"Convince us of our errors of Doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the Word of God and we will ever be grateful for the information and you will ever have the pleasing reflections that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings." LDS Apostle, Orson Pratt - The Seer, p. 15

"I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test." 2nd LDS president, Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, Vol. 16, p. 46

"I think a full, free talk is frequently of great use; we want nothing secret nor underhanded, and for one I want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation." 3rd LDS President, John Taylor - Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, p. 264

I've published hundreds and hundreds of pages on the subject. You're entirely welcome to read them.

Sounds like a good idea.

I was surprised, though, that you condemned Jesus' manner of criticizing some of the people of his day. I wouldn't have expected that from a fundamentalist or evangelical Protestant, which is what I had understood you to be.

I didn't condemn it, Daniel. Please don't put words in my mouth. I just didn't want to go there right now. I'd rather focus on the topic at hand. Far too many conversations go off into rabbit trail land, if you know what I mean. :-)

Please do link me to your pages on Eternal Progression.

[Mormon Factor]

Russ,

I am quite surprised to see you here begging for the LDS view of LDS beliefs! What, with all your knowledge of LDS doctrines you've even been called by God to teach your Mormonism 101 class at your church. A few of my friends drove by a few Sundays back, and thought to stop in to see if you were teaching correct doctrine. I must say, though, that given your church's beliefs regarding certain items of doctrines, you might consider cleaning out your own house before trying to clean ours. It's amazing that you can preach one thing in stark contrast to your church's beliefs and still call it good by using the old standby that a church can be in error on minor points as long as they are right in the major ones.

Now go, Russ, get to cleaning that house. BTW, is your class still on for Sunday the 24th? We might stop in for some fun!

[Avatar4321]

Thank you.

Do you believe you'll become a creator God over your own world or planet or planets?

May I quote you?

Not necessarily.

For the last time: Yes We believe the Bible. So of course YES.

Now can you explain why you don't?

[Eguzkitanedan]

Why?

1. Because I don't have enough faith?

2. Am I less-than-worthy?

3. Are you more worthy?

Come, I'm asking you what you believe. As stated earlier: if you have the truth then present it to me. I'm not asking you nor Jesus to "dance a jig." Do you think we can all do without such rhetoric?

1. By LDS standards, yes. By your standards, us LDS don't have saving faith. It's relative.

2. see 1

3. No. Just FYI, I've never been in the temple, not received the Aaronic priesthood, or my patriarchal blessing. Right now in my life, I'm more concerned with understanding how to live my life in the light of the gospel, than laying hold on those blessings yet.

4. What do I believe? I believe John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Do I believe Romans 8:17? "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." I'm trying to take up my cross and presevere in Christ. His grace and mercy is as the prophet Nephi described it: "But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance." (1 Ne. 1:20). Christ's atonement and power is what will make us co-heirs in the kingdom. If he sees it sufficient to be exalted by exalting his chosen saints, I have nothing against it. But "celestial sex?" Come on. I accept Christ and his prophets, but I'm not there yet. If it comes to pass, it will be for his greater glory, for his glory is revealed in glorifying us. Moses 1:39 "For behold, this is my work and my gloryâ??to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

[Avatar4321]

I believe the Bible to be trustworthy and that it contains all a man needs to receive eternal life.

funny, you think that the Bible would contain that serious piece of information if it were indeed true.

[Russ]

Russ,

I am quite surprised to see you here begging for the LDS view of LDS beliefs! What, with all your knowledge of LDS doctrines you've even been called by God to teach your Mormonism 101 class at your church. A few of my friends drove by a few Sundays back, and thought to stop in to see if you were teaching correct doctrine. I must say, though, that given your church's beliefs regarding certain items of doctrines, you might consider cleaning out your own house before trying to clean ours. It's amazing that you can preach one thing in stark contrast to your church's beliefs and still call it good by using the old standby that a church can be in error on minor points as long as they are right in the major ones.

Now go, Russ, get to cleaning that house. BTW, is your class still on for Sunday the 24th? We might stop in for some fun!

Sure, stop on by. I teach my class from a standpoint of love.

[Daniel Peterson]

I'm going to write an article comparing your beliefs to that of Christian beliefs.

My beliefs are Christian beliefs, of course.

Your project is, thus, fatally flawed from the get-go.

Have you ever taught a class comparing Fords to automobiles, or Douglas firs to trees, or water to liquids?

I didn't condemn it, Daniel.

Oh, but you did. Even if only indirectly. You objected to Flyonthewall's language, which was, simply, Jesus' language. It was a verbatim quotation.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Don't worry. I won't.

I was just a bit shocked, candidly, to read your implicit criticism of the Lord.

I've never participated on CARM, though I've heard a bit about it. It always sounded quite unpleasant and ugly, but now I begin to see that it represents a very, very different kind of conservative Protestantism than I've ever encountered elsewhere.

That's a relief, frankly. If folks at CARM criticize Jesus himself, I guess I shouldn't be concerned when they attack me and my faith.

"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known." (Matthew 10:24-26)

As for my various publications, many of them (though not all) are available on the web. You're welcome to locate them and to read them. I'm not particularly inclined to make your rather repellent self-imposed task of assaulting my faith any easier for you.

[Mormon Factor]

Sure, stop on by. I teach my class from a standpoint of love.

LOL...yeah....

too bad you don't teach it from a standpoint of truth.

BTW, do you have another class besides the 9:30am one? That cuts into my true worship time.

[MorningStar]

I have a question, Russ. If we made a website about your church, do you think it would be accurate? Who do you think would do a better job - you or us?

[Russ]

1. By LDS standards, yes. By your standards, us LDS don't have saving faith. It's relative.

2. see 1

3. No. Just FYI, I've never been in the temple, not received the Aaronic priesthood, or my patriarchal blessing. Right now in my life, I'm more concerned with understanding how to live my life in the light of the gospel, than laying hold on those blessings yet.

4. What do I believe? I believe John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Do I believe Romans 8:17? "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." I'm trying to take up my cross and presevere in Christ. His grace and mercy is as the prophet Nephi described it: "But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance." (1 Ne. 1:20). Christ's atonement and power is what will make us co-heirs in the kingdom. If he sees it sufficient to be exalted by exalting his chosen saints, I have nothing against it. But "celestial sex?" Come on. I accept Christ and his prophets, but I'm not there yet. If it comes to pass, it will be for his greater glory, for his glory is revealed in glorifying us. Moses 1:39 "For behold, this is my work and my gloryâ??to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

Thank you for sharing that.

It convinces me that you truly desire to know your Bible.

Kudos.

I have a question, Russ. If we made a website about your church, do you think it would be accurate? Who do you think would do a better job - you or us?

That's why I'm asking you what you believe.

LOL...yeah....

too bad you don't teach it from a standpoint of truth.

BTW, do you have another class besides the 9:30am one? That cuts into my true worship time.

No, not at this time. But we're talking about doing some mid-week classes too. I'll keep you posted if you like. Please send an email.

[Mormon Factor]

No, not at this time. But we're talking about doing some mid-week classes too. I'll keep you posted if you like. Please send an email.

Fair enough.

I just can't see the worth of spending a Sunday in "Sunday School" not learning about Jesus Christ but rather hearing a staunch critic teach about why he believes a certain other church is false. What a weird thing to have for "Sunday School".

Also, does your anti-mormonsim Sunday School class conflict with your church's post-abortion Bible study? That might be an interesting class too.