Eternal Progression

[Russ]

My beliefs are Christian beliefs, of course.

Your project is, thus, fatally flawed from the get-go.

Have you ever taught a class comparing Fords to automobiles, or Douglas firs to trees, or water to liquids?

Oh, but you did. Even if only indirectly. You objected to Flyonthewall's language, which was, simply, Jesus' language. It was a verbatim quotation.

Don't worry. I won't.

I was just a bit shocked, candidly, to read your implicit criticism of the Lord.

I've never participated on CARM, though I've heard a bit about it. It always sounded quite unpleasant and ugly, but now I begin to see that it represents a very, very different kind of conservative Protestantism than I've ever encountered elsewhere.

That's a relief, frankly. If folks at CARM criticize Jesus himself, I guess I shouldn't be concerned when they attack me and my faith.

"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known." (Matthew 10:24-26)

As for my various publications, many of them (though not all) are available on the web. You're welcome to locate them and to read them. I'm not particularly inclined to make your rather repellent self-imposed task of assaulting my faith any easier for you.

I understand, Daniel. I wouldn't be too keen on helping an atheist provide information on attacking the Chrisitan church. I'd think along the same lines as you are. "Why help an 'anti?' They only hate us. They only persecute us. They only seek our demise."

But ya know sumpthin'?

I'd do it anyway. I'd do it so that the atheist might hear. We have nothing to fear.

The truth always sets people free.

I don't seek your demise. I seek your reformation.

[Avatar4321]

I understand, Daniel. I wouldn't be too keen on helping an atheist provide information on attacking the Chrisitan church. I'd think along the same lines as you are. "Why help an 'anti?' They only hate us. They only persecute us. They only seek our demise."

But ya know sumpthin'?

I'd do it anyway. I'd do it so that the atheist might hear. We have nothing to fear.

The truth always sets people free.

And what on earth do you know about truth? You get offended when people quote the Savior to you

[Russ]

And what on earth do you know about truth? You get offended when people quote the Savior to you

Indeed I have been offended. Please forgive me for the times I've insulted you.

[Avatar4321]

Indeed I have been offended. Please forgive me for the times I've insulted you.

It's not wise to be offended by Christ. If you really want forgiveness, you would talk with Him, not me.

[Mormon Factor]

BTW Russ,

How can you be considered a credible witness to the teachings of Mormonism in your Sunday School class when you teach doctrine contrary to the tenents and principles laid out by your church? If I didn't know you already, and I showed up at your church, I would question your teaching of Mormonism as being accurate given your teaching of your OWN doctrines and how they are a 180 from those espoused by the very church you attend/ work for!!

[Russ]

BTW Russ,

How can you be considered a credible witness to the teachings of Mormonism in your Sunday School class when you teach doctrine contrary to the tenents and principles laid out by your church? If I didn't know you already, and I showed up at your church, I would question your teaching of Mormonism as being accurate given your teaching of your OWN doctrines and how they are a 180 from those espoused by the very church you attend/ work for!!

That's why I'm here, sir. To get the real LDS deal.

I love my church's doctrines.

P.S. I'm not paid to teach.

[Mormon Factor]

That's why I'm here, sir. To get the real LDS deal.

I love my church's doctrines.

P.S. I'm not paid to teach.

Sooooo, you've already been teaching without getting the real deal? Says alot about your teaching. Ya know, most people KNOW what they teach before they teach it. I dunno. Seems like you have put your cart before the horse.

I'm glad to know you love your church's doctrines. Now tell us why you teach opposite of some of them?

I didn't say you were paid to teach. But since you brought it up, is that a safeguard? In other words, is the fact that you aren't paid by your church a way for you to be able to teach doctrines that are 180 degrees opposite from your church's position? If you WERE paid would you have to agree with all of their doctrines to be hired by them?

[Russ]

Sooooo, you've already been teaching without getting the real deal? Says alot about your teaching. Ya know, most people KNOW what they teach before they teach it. I dunno. Seems like you have put your cart before the horse.

I'm glad to know you love your church's doctrines. Now tell us why you teach opposite of some of them?

I didn't say you were paid to teach. But since you brought it up, is that a safeguard? In other words, is the fact that you aren't paid by your church a way for you to be able to teach doctrines that are 180 degrees opposite from your church's position? If you WERE paid would you have to agree with all of their doctrines to be hired by them?

It appears necessary to divert from the topic of Eternal Progression. (If any others wish to add thoughts, please do so as I remain interested.) Peterson thinks I don't believe Jesus re: pearls before pigs; MF thinks I'm at odds with my own church and some others think I'm just plain evil. (Well, okay, I don't believe in Joseph. So sue me )

I'm in favor of paid clergy as "a workman is worthy of his wages." Since small group leaders are not considered staff they serve without pay. I'm in favor of that too.

I'm not sure what MF means about opposing my church's doctrines. I teach both sides. Some believe baptism is mandatory, some do not. Some believe in eternal security (OSAS), some do not. My pastor is still my brother and so is the Methodist; the Presbyterian; etc. "Ain't no big whoop." Hey, y'know those guys who don't believe exactly as I do? They will when they die. ba-dum-ching. (It's a joke.)

Yes, we can downplay our differences just as Mormons do too. Say hello to Sunstone, Grant Palmer and, oh, I'm tempted. But I won't say "Warren Jeffs." (C'mon, smile.)

Indeed, there comes a time to dust off one's feet and move on.

But I hope you'll let me stay long enough to find out what you folks believe.

[Russ]

It's not wise to be offended by Christ. If you really want forgiveness, you would talk with Him, not me.

Does that mean you are unwilling to forgive me?

[Avatar4321]

Does that mean you are unwilling to forgive me?

It means the source of Forgiveness is someone far superior than I.

[Mormon Factor]

I'm not sure what MF means about opposing my church's doctrines. I teach both sides. Some believe baptism is mandatory, some do not. Some believe in eternal security (OSAS), some do not. My pastor is still my brother and so is the Methodist; the Presbyterian; etc. "Ain't no big whoop." Hey, y'know those guys who don't believe exactly as I do? They will when they die. ba-dum-ching. (It's a joke.)

You teach both sides?

Okie dokie..... Hey, at least you can't be guilty of teaching blasphemy if you teach out of both sides of your mouth.

But I hope you'll let me stay long enough to find out what you folks believe.

Ahhh, i get it!!! You are playing from the Huckabee handbook. Maybe you should be called Russ Huckabee. Just like when Huckabee goes to Utah to help witness to us poor mormons as a pastor of his congregation. Then he turns around and says, "I don't know much about the Mormons. Don't they believe 'x'...'y'..."?

And now here you are, after all your websites, your Mormonism101 classes, your paid trips to Manti to protest, your hours upon hours of attacking the church, NOW you come here acting the humble servant looking to 'understand' and to 'find out what you believe'??????????

[4truth]

So tell me MF.... if you HAVEN'T spent the last 6 or 7 posts merely attacking Russ on the personal basis of his character and or motivations... what exactly have you been doing?

Also, someone wrote this:

Russ, Jesus said that. I don't think he's calling you either, but instead using a scripture to hammer a point. THE SAINTS AREN'T GOING TO TAKE THEIR SACRED BELIEFS AND PARADE THEM IN FRONT OF THE WORLD. When Jesus was transfigured on the mount and appeared with Elijah and Moses, did he invite all of Jerusalem? No. He took only those few of his disciples who were worthy and had enough faith in him to receive it in the first place. When Jesus resurrected, did he go and dance a jig in front of the Sanhedrim? No, He appeared to those who were willing to accept him and had faith. From an LDS perspective, you don't have enough faith to understand these teachings in their true light. So, is it any surprise no one's shared?

And when Jesus gave the great commission did he say to spread the Gospel only to those deemed "worthy"? I seem to recall the command to spread the Good News to everyone. (Mark 16:15)

[Calm]

I suppose you're talking about The Seer.

No, apparently you don't read every post on the thread...or maybe you just like to ignore the ones that you don't like.

As referred to in the post I posted above, I'm talking specifically about the "thinking has been done" page. That this isn't the only time you've done this is hardly surprising to me.

[Calm]

I found this:

Right, you found it on your own website.

You act like this is something new to you, yet it's been on your website since before you started this thread.

[Russ]

Right, you found it on your own website.

You act like this is something new to you, yet it's been on your website since before you started this thread.

Calmoriah, what's going on here? When I wrote "I found this" I didn't mean I found it just now.

I found it in my copy of Achieiving a Celestial Marriage (I have many LDS books) and I posted it here for comment.

Why is it that Mormons are reluctant to discuss their core beliefs?

Is this what you believe?

[Russ]

No, apparently you don't read every post on the thread...or maybe you just like to ignore the ones that you don't like.

As referred to in the post I posted above, I'm talking specifically about the "thinking has been done" page. That this isn't the only time you've done this is hardly surprising to me.

Oh, sorry. What information would you like me to consider?

[Russ]

So tell me MF.... if you HAVEN'T spent the last 6 or 7 posts merely attacking Russ on the personal basis of his character and or motivations... what exactly have you been doing?

Also, someone wrote this:

Russ, Jesus said that. I don't think he's calling you either, but instead using a scripture to hammer a point. THE SAINTS AREN'T GOING TO TAKE THEIR SACRED BELIEFS AND PARADE THEM IN FRONT OF THE WORLD. When Jesus was transfigured on the mount and appeared with Elijah and Moses, did he invite all of Jerusalem? No. He took only those few of his disciples who were worthy and had enough faith in him to receive it in the first place. When Jesus resurrected, did he go and dance a jig in front of the Sanhedrim? No, He appeared to those who were willing to accept him and had faith. From an LDS perspective, you don't have enough faith to understand these teachings in their true light. So, is it any surprise no one's shared?

And when Jesus gave the great commission did he say to spread the Gospel only to those deemed "worthy"? I seem to recall the command to spread the Good News to everyone. (Mark 16:15)

Amen to that, 4truth.

Thank you.

[Russ]

It means the source of Forgiveness is someone far superior than I.

I understand. Ultimate forgiveness unto salvation (your exaltation) is from God.

I hope you'll find it in your heart to forgive me if (and when) I've insulted you.

[MormonMason]

...

Why is it that Mormons are reluctant to discuss their core beliefs?

...

What are Mormonism's core beliefs?

Twentieth-"What are the fundamental principles of your religion?"

The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected and arranged by Joseph Fielding Smith, 121)

Why do Mormons not wish to discuss the appendages of their doctrines with you?

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

(Matthew 7:6, KJV)

[Mormon Factor]

So tell me MF.... if you HAVEN'T spent the last 6 or 7 posts merely attacking Russ on the personal basis of his character and or motivations... what exactly have you been doing?

That's just it. I have no problem exposing a wolf in sheeps clothing. I've 'known'Russ for 4 or 5 years from CARM, CC, here, etc.. As others have pointed out, once you understand the real intent and character of Russ you realize that his attempts at making sincere and humble requests for the belief of LDS is not for a desire to come to the true fold of the shephard but rather to attempt to gain more information to skew to his evil agenda. Pearls; swine.

Also, someone wrote this:

And when Jesus gave the great commission did he say to spread the Gospel only to those deemed "worthy"? I seem to recall the command to spread the Good News to everyone. (Mark 16:15)

True. But this isn't a case of LDS not wanting to share the gospel with someone who wishes to hear it or even someone who actually wants to understand it more. This is a case of someone who claims to have all the knowledge he needs to condemn LDS and, has already been noted, has already tried to invoke the name of the Godhead in rebuking the LDS for our beliefs. I think you might consider that even Jesus knew when someone was actually asking a sincere question or when he was being set up by those with an evil agenda. And Jesus didn't throw every dog a bone when they asked.

[Russ]

That's just it. I have no problem exposing a wolf in sheeps clothing. I've 'known'Russ for 4 or 5 years from CARM, CC, here, etc.. As others have pointed out, once you understand the real intent and character of Russ you realize that his attempts at making sincere and humble requests for the belief of LDS is not for a desire to come to the true fold of the shephard but rather to attempt to gain more information to skew to his evil agenda. Pearls; swine.

True. But this isn't a case of LDS not wanting to share the gospel with someone who wishes to hear it or even someone who actually wants to understand it more. This is a case of someone who claims to have all the knowledge he needs to condemn LDS and, has already been noted, has already tried to invoke the name of the Godhead in rebuking the LDS for our beliefs. I think you might consider that even Jesus knew when someone was actually asking a sincere question or when he was being set up by those with an evil agenda. And Jesus didn't throw every dog a bone when they asked.

My questions are indeed sincere as I'm following Brigham Young's admonition to "pick up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints, see if it will stand the test."

I don't hide the fact that I believe it doesn't stand the test.

Mormons have good opportunity here to explain their beliefs. I may quote you if you have something of value to add.

P.S. I posted the following yesterday on CARM in response to someone discussing getting booted from this site:

I've been posting there {at MADB}. They haven't kicked me out just yet. Who knows? I might rub someone the wrong way and find myself "anathema."

I like what Ravi Zacharias said when he visited Salt Lake. When asked a hard question, he jokingly said that he'd be happy to pass that question off to one of his other ministry team members (audience laughed) and then he said, "When I'm a guest I act as a guest."

Boom.

P.S. I've been to Temple Square, temple openings, LDS visitor's centers, public LDS pageants, ward services, etc. Ravi's lead will take us far.

[Russ]

What are Mormonism's core beliefs?

Why do Mormons not wish to discuss the appendages of their doctrines with you?

The highest ideal of any religion answers the question: what happens after I die?

Salvation, Moksha, Nirvana, reincarnation, etc.

Does not Mormonism answer that question by stating men will become Gods?

What is the formula for salvation?

Christianity states that one is saved from hell unto eternal life lived directly in the presence of God almighty by faith, by grace, and that not of ourselves lest any man should boast. The Lord Jesus paid the ransom and his righteousness alone will be imputed to the believer.

Does not the LDS church state that families are forever and that they'll be joint heirs with Christ insofar that LDS men will populate other planets with their offspring so that the Father will have eternal increase?

Is that not the ultimate ideal of the LDS religion?

Would you not agree that this is more than mere appendage?

[Mormon Factor]

My questions are indeed sincere as I'm following Brigham Young's admonition to "pick up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints, see if it will stand the test."

I don't hide the fact that I believe it doesn't stand the test.

Mormons have good opportunity here to explain their beliefs. I may quote you if you have something of value to add.

P.S. I posted the following yesterday on CARM in response to someone discussing getting booted from this site:

Wait a sec....

So your justification here is that as long as you act like a guest you should be granted the information you seek?

That's odd.

SO you have no problem going to another forum and trashing the church and its beliefs and even going as far as rebuking LDS teachings in the name of God, and then coming here like the humble servant looking for information about that which you've already condemned us for?? That's psychotic! How can you rebuke and condemn us about the info that you are now here to get???

Oh yeah, thanks for adding to your list of LDS places you've gone to protest. Again, another sign that either 1) you are protesting against something you don't know about (hence your presence here 'looking for information') or 2) that you DO think you already know about us and therefore your phoney attempts at seeking real dialogue and discussion about LDS beliefs is quite pharisaical.

[Russ]

Wait a sec....

So your justification here is that as long as you act like a guest you should be granted the information you seek?

That's odd.

SO you have no problem going to another forum and trashing the church and its beliefs and even going as far as rebuking LDS teachings in the name of God, and then coming here like the humble servant looking for information about that which you've already condemned us for?? That's psychotic! How can you rebuke and condemn us about the info that you are now here to get???

Oh yeah, thanks for adding to your list of LDS places you've gone to protest. Again, another sign that either 1) you are protesting against something you don't know about (hence your presence here 'looking for information') or 2) that you DO think you already know about us and therefore your phoney attempts at seeking real dialogue and discussion about LDS beliefs is quite pharisaical.

MF, I've been straight with you. I don't agree with LDS beliefs and I'm in the process of gathering information to write an article comparing the Bible to the LDS concept of Eternal Progression. I don't hide the fact that I disagree with LDS theology. I've been quite clear that I'm not looking to find agreement through dialogue but rather to show the differences.

Should I thank you for calling me psychotic, crazy and wacko?

[Mormon Factor]

Should I thank you for calling me psychotic, crazy and wacko?

I didn't call YOU psychotic. I said "That's psychotic". IOW, your actions. See the difference? Russ, I thought playing the victim role was reserved for LDS? Whodathunkit! And I didn't call you a crazy and a wacko, I used the icons to represent what I think about your M.O.

But thanks for making it apparent that you so easily can misconstrue and misunderstand a position and then post it as though your viewpoint was the correct one. You are definitely good at that!