Eternal Progression

[Flyonthewall]

Russ, your question has been answered on this board, and sufficiently so.

Any time I here or see someone ask a question about being "gods of your own planet" I know you/they wish to mock or tear down, or just plain ignorance.

Bee Eff gave you a scriptural reference that supports our belief. If you wish to debate or make a counter point, then do so.

[Russ]

I don't think you can quote just any member. You'd have to get leadership quotes if you want to be fair while writing your article.

I'm looking to do both.

I have leadership quotes.

I'm looking to add current-day LDS beliefs from LDS members.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Ah, good ol Russ from CC and CARM. Comes over and presents himself as just someone who "believes differently". At least he admits he's a "critic". Yet he has quite another personality while amongst his anti-Mormon buddies. He posted this just yesterday on CARM-

__________________

Why not just come here and say that in the first place, Russ? Why rebuke only a few LDS (who haven't been banned yet by (Golden "Mod8") at CARM when so many here need to see your light shine?

[Doctor Steuss]

I'm looking to add current-day LDS beliefs from LDS members.

Do they have to be presented in positively profound alliterations?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Do they have to be presented in positively profound alliterations?

Alliteration will achieve some alacrity, so as not to alarm the apostates or arouse their anger.

[Russ]

I thought I knew you, Russ.

You have an amazingly disrespectful way of treating LDS beliefs. But maybe you can find some answers here:

image: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Lif...Misc/uranus.jpg

Thanks. I read Meridian frequently.

What do you believe about the LDS concept of Eternal Progression?

[Russ]

Have you not read your scriptures? What have the prophets said concering this?

I am a god. I am a god of this world. I have already been told to reproduce and fill the earth. God has created many worlds.

.....

Have you not read your scriptures? What have the prophets said concering this?

Do you disbelieve them?

If so, why should I believe you over them?

Thank you.

Do you believe you'll become a creator God over your own world or planet or planets?

May I quote you?

Do they have to be presented in positively profound alliterations?

Not necessarily.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Thanks. I read Meridian frequently.

What do you believe about the LDS concept of Eternal Progression?

I believe you qualify as a bona fide anti-Mormon; a term which I reserve for overzealous, misrepresenting, disrespectful critics like yourself and, say, Ed Decker. I have no interest in discussing my beliefs with you in any in-depth fashion. You are completely two-faced, even hilariously so. Your masquerading like a balanced critic around here has been fun to watch.

I will, however tell you what you can quote:

Mormons believe the Bible when it says we are the offspring of God, and can be joint-heirs with Jesus Christ, who inherited all that the Father hath.

[Sargon]

Russ, a few quick questions.

What is the theme of your paper? Are you writing an essay attempting to describe what the LDS church teaches to it's members? Are you writing a paper attempting to describe what some past LDS leaders have taught? Are you attempting to write a paper that describes the speculations of a small handful of LDS posters? How will you frame your descriptions? Are you going to explain that not all LDS agree on the particulars? Are you going to point out that the official LDS canon doesn't suggest specifcs, but that we take liberties to speculate on them? Are you going to characterize personal speculation as official LDS beliefs?

As you have already seen by searching lds.org, the church does not officially teach anything about "celestial-sex"(from your buddy Decker's film) or "planets". Will you include in your paper that fact?

Sargon

[Russ]

I believe you qualify as a bona fide anti-Mormon; a term which I reserve for overzealous, misrepresenting, disrespectful critics like yourself and, say, Ed Decker. I have no interest in discussing my beliefs with you in any in-depth fashion. You are completely two-faced, even hilariously so. Your masquerading like a balanced critic around here has been fun to watch.

I will, however tell you what you can quote:

Mormons believe the Bible when it says we are the offspring of God, and can be joint-heirs with Jesus Christ, who inherited all that the Father hath.

What have I stated that misrepresents the LDS concept of Eternal Progression? I'm trying to get the facts straight.

You've provided only an out-of-context snippet from the Bible (offspring of God and joint heirs) and you haven't provided further LDS information regarding the concept of Eternal Progression. *shrug*

Let me ask you point blank: Do you or don't you beleive you'll become a God or goddess over another planet where your spirit-children will take on tabernacles of flesh and bone (physical bodies) so that they too might become Gods in their own right over other planets?

Here's what I have thus far from LDS leaders:

"The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this." Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48

As quoted at: http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/mormon...obecomegods.htm

From the official website of the LDS church:

Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th President of the Church

Basic Facts

Birth Date: July 19, 1876

Death Date: July 2, 1972

Years as President: 1970â??1972

â??Our mission is to preach the doctrines of salvation in plainness and simplicity as they are revealed and recorded in the scriptures.â?

The crux of any religion, whether it be Hindu, Buddhist, Islam, Christian, Scientology or Mormonism, etc., is its means of salvation.

Why am I here?

What happens after I die?

Christianity states man will be saved from hell unto eternal life lived directly in the presence of God.

Mormonism states men will become their own Gods over other planets where they'll procreate spirit-children with celestial wives (or a wife. It depends upon which LDS authority one believes.)

Since the ultimate goal of any given religion is to answer "what happens after I die?", I think a full-examination of Mormonism's answer is in order.

Since the Mormon man is said to become a God in his own right, with the ability to create, procreate and govern, it seems a good idea to ask LDS to explain the following quotes and offer input along the way as to why we should consider such thoughts to be representative of Christianity:

Joseph Smith (1844, the year he was murdered) said, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man ... We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg.345).

"Here, then, is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God.... " (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 346, 347)

Fifth LDS president: "Why, we are just beginning to find out that we are the offspring of God, born with the same faculties and powers as He possesses, capable of enlargement through the experience that we are now passing through in our second estate... He has given us faculties and powers that are capable of enlargement until His fulness is reached which He has promisedâ??until we shall sit upon thrones, governing and controlling our posterity from eternity to eternity, and increasing eternally. That is the fact in regard to these matters." The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.2 1898-1901

LDS Apostle James Talmage wrote: "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement - a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.'" (Articles of Faith, p. 430.) Early 1900s

Man is God in embryo

"Mormonism be it true or false, holds out to men the greatest inducements that the human mind can grasp. It teaches men that they can become divine, that man is God in embryo, that God was once man in mortality, and that the only difference between Gods, angels and men is a difference in education and development. Is such a religion to be sneered at? It teaches that the worlds on high, the stars that glitter in the blue vault of heaven, are kingdoms of God, that they were once earths like this, that they have been redeemed and glorified by the same laws, the same principles that are applied to this planet, and by which it will ascend to a perfected and glorified state. It teaches that these worlds are peopled with human beings, God's sons and daughters, and that every husband and father, may become an Adam, and every wife and mother an Eve, to some future planet." Mormon Apostle Orson F. Whitney Collected Discourses, Vol. 4, June 9, 1895

"Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing." -Milton R. Hunter, First Council of the Seventy 1945-1975

"Let me ask, are we not taught that we as sons of God may become like him? Is not this a glorious thought? Yet we have to pass through mortality and receive the resurrection and then go on to perfection just as our Father did before us. The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" 10th LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith Doctrines of Salvation 1:12 (LDS president: 1970-1972)

12th LDS president Spencer W. Kimball: "Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility." The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.28 (LDS president 1973-1985)

"We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were said by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: 'As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.' This is a power available to us as we reach perfection and receive the experience and power to create, to organize, to control native elements. How limited we are now! We have no power to force the grass to grow, the plants to emerge, the seeds to develop." - Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference, April 1977

"On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62); and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become!" - Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, October 1994

The concept of God being an exalted man has been taught in the LDSChurch as recently as 2005 in an official LDSChurch publication:

"Many religions teach that human beings are children of God, but often their conception of Him precludes any kind of bond resembling a parent-child relationship. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught of a much simpler and more sensible relationship: â??God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit â?¦ was to make himself visible â?¦ , you would see him like a man in formâ??like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another." - Strengthening the Family: Created in the Image of God, Male and Female, The Ensign, Jan. 2005, pg. 48

Do you agree, disagree, or wish to comment?

[rhinomelon]

Sorry, my friend, I've lost all interest in apologetics and even scholarship these days. I'm here solely for the socializing.

However, since I can't think of any Evangelical Christian on the planet that I love and respect more than you, I'll give it a shot a little latter.

Sorry to hear your feeling a little burned out, but I can't say I blame you. Been there before, and will be again, one eternal round...

I'm not looking for any debates or anything. This paper will be comparing two different views on the nature of man, both of which I'll likely disagree with

Sorry I'm not more help my brother.

Nah, you've been a great help. I'll email Chris about Ostler's book. No doubt most of it will be over my head, but I can always pretend...

Does she like playing Scrabble?

You know, I'm not sure, but I think she prefers Twister.

Why not both?

"Left hand on Triple Word Score!"

Saved my marriage, man...

Take care, you guys

[Russ]

Ah, good ol Russ from CC and CARM. Comes over and presents himself as just someone who "believes differently". At least he admits he's a "critic". Yet he has quite another personality while amongst his anti-Mormon buddies. He posted this just yesterday on CARM-

__________________

Why not just come here and say that in the first place, Russ? Why rebuke only a few LDS (who haven't been banned yet by (Golden "Mod8") at CARM when so many here need to see your light shine?

Indeed, I do present myself as a critic of the LDS religion. I present myself as myself and I pull no punches, Trencher.

I'd post my website url too if allowed.

When in your house as a guest I act as a guest and I'll ask you what you believe. (But you've failed to answer that question.)

Russ Bales

[Bee Eff]

May I quote you?

You may quote me if you quote my responses as they appear in this thread, in their entirety including the scripture passages and your posts to which I responded. If the quotes do not include the scripture I have used and the exact presentation I have used, such quotation could be misread and present a false impression of my statements. But, I have stated nothing, I have only quoted the Bible.

Do you believe you'll become a creator God over your own world or planet or planets?

Ps. 82: 6

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10: 34

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

I am a god. I have, with my wife, created children by the will and power God gave me.

[Doctor Steuss]

What have I stated that misrepresents the LDS concept of Eternal Progression? I'm trying to get the facts straight.

So, you gave a denunciation (provided in post #47) in the name of all three members of the Holy Trinity potentially without â??the facts straight.â?

My, oh my.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

Why not both?

"Left hand on Triple Word Score!"

Saved my marriage, man...

Take care, you guys

Brilliant.

[LifeOnaPlate]

What have I stated that misrepresents the LDS concept of Eternal Progression? I'm trying to get the facts straight.

You've provided only an out-of-context snippet from the Bible (offspring of God and joint heirs) and you haven't provided further LDS information regarding the concept of Eternal Progression. *shrug*

Let me ask you point blank: Do you or don't you beleive you'll become a God or goddess over another planet where your spirit-children will take on tabernacles of flesh and bone (physical bodies) so that they too might become Gods in their own right over other planets?

Here's what I have thus far from LDS leaders:

Do you agree, disagree, or wish to comment?

Indulge me.

Much criticism of Joseph Smith and the LDS Church in general stems from the doctrine regarding the eternal potential of mankind. The Church believes that men and women are the "offspring" of Heavenly Parents (see Acts 17:28-29) composed of the same eternal substance (see D&C 93:33-35), and as such, have divine possibilities. However, there are many names for and many interpretations of the doctrine in and out of the Church. Describing the various schools of thought on the subject is not the purpose of this particular response, however.

President Heber C. Kimball, who served in the First Presidency with Brigham Young in the mid to late 1800s, tangentially referred to deification, not as a glorious declaration that we can become gods, or godlike, but to remind his listeners not to put the cart before the horse; we ought to consider becoming true Saints before focusing too much on being gods:

Many think that they are going right into the celestial kingdom of God, in their present ignorance, to at once receive glories and powers; that they are going to be Gods, while many of them are so ignorant, that they can see or know scarcely anything. Such people talk of becoming Gods, when they do not know anything of God, or of His works; such persons have to learn repentance, and obedience to the law of God; they have got to learn to understand angels, and to comprehend and stick to the principles of this Church.

â?¦I bear testimony of this, and I wish you would listen to counsel and lay aside every sin that doth so easily beset you, and turn to the Lord with full purpose of heart.

Similarly, during the King Follett discourse, Joseph Smith taught:

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation.

But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil [died] before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave (History of the Church, 6:306â??7).

Christ said "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" (see Matthew 5:48) and Mormons tend take that charge literally; perhaps sometimes a little too literally for the time being. The trouble is, some Saints might feel they can, or even must achieve this impossible goal through their own efforts. In conversations about grace and works Mormons are quick to quote: "faith without works is dead," (see James 2:20). We would do well to remember that works without faith is also dead, and I believe Heber is trying in the discourse above mentioned to express that message.

Here we see an early example of a Church leader discussing grace, though he still maintains a seemingly "works-heavy" perspective. It is for us, today, to focus on today, and retain a remission of sins relying on Christ, as the light grows brighter and brighter until the perfect day. In the meantime, probation continues, and Heber has a few pieces of advice to impart:

We cannot become perfect, without we are assisted by our heavenly Father. We must be faithful and of one heart, and one mind, and let every man and woman take course to build up and not pull down. See that you save your grain, that you may save yourselves from the wicked of the world. Try to take care of every thing that is good to eat, for this is the work of the Lord God Almighty, and we shall have times that will test the integrity of this people, that will test who is honest and who is not.

Omitting prayer is calculated to lead the mind away from those duties which are incumbent upon us; then let us attend to our prayers and all our duties, and you will know that brother Brigham and his brethren have told you of these things...

There are trying times ahead of you, do you not begin to feel and see them? If you do not, I say you are asleep. I wish that the spirit which rests upon a few individuals could be upon you, everyone of you, it would be one of the most joyful times that brother Brigham and I ever saw with the Saints of God upon this earth.

We have enough on our plates to worry about today without being presumptuous about our future estate. Certainly we can have the end in mind, remembering the relationship of Father to child is crucial. He will always, through all eternity, be our Father and our God. Still, it would be unwise to jump the gun and assume we are practically almost there; we have plenty to do in the meantime.

Hope this helps. If you quote any of my work, please cite the full reference and location. Thanks.

[johnny]

Russ,

I'm writing an article on Eternal Progression to include on my website.

I am not a Mormon ...

Below are some related Mormon Teachings from the Mormon personal study guide and teacher's manual called Gospel Principles. It can be found at the official Mormon web site www.lds.org or see the links below

He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father

(Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 47)

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

The Lord has said that if we are true and faithful, . . . We will become gods. (See D&C 132:19-20.)

(Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 38)

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-48,00.html

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top . . . This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. ... He was once a man like us . . ."

(Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 47)

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities.

(Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 2)

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-5,00.html

[Calm]

I disbelieve LDS theology; but why does that stop you from stating what you believe? Just because I'm "anti?" Get past it, please.

No, what's stopping me is that you intentionally misrepresent LDS beliefs as demonstrated by your use of material that has been discredited by the leadership of the Church without acknowledging that it's been discredited.

[Russ]

No, what's stopping me is that you intentionally misrepresent LDS beliefs as demonstrated by your use of material that has been discredited by the leadership of the Church without acknowledging that it's been discredited.

I suppose you're talking about The Seer. Here's a good book: Conflict in the Quorum by Bergera

It's interesting to note that Pratt has been vindicated. For example, Young's Adam/God doctrine (he never called it a theory to my knowledge) is no longer accepted.

Did you know that The Seer is quoted in the LDS manual Achieving a Celestial Marriage?

[MormonMason]

...

Did you know that The Seer is quoted in the LDS manual Achieving a Celestial Marriage?

It is quoted briefly therein. However, not all of the text is of equal value. Portions of it were condemned by action of the First Presidency and a letter was sent out encouraging the cutting out and destroying certain portions of the work.

One other thing. I find in this review ten lengthy quotations from the Seer which was published by Orson Pratt, yet the Seer by formal action of the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles of the Church was repudiated, and Elder Orson Pratt himself sanctioned the repudiation. There was a long article published in the Deseret News on the 23rd of August, 1865, over the signatures of the First Presidency and Twelve setting forth that this work-the Seer-together with some other writings of Elder Pratt, were inaccurate. In the course of that document, after praising, as well they might, the great bulk of the work of this noted apostle, they say:

"But the Seer, the Great First Cause, the article in the Millennial Star, of Oct. 15, and Nov. 1, 1850 * * * * contain doctrine which we cannot sanction and which we have felt to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works or parts of works are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed."

(B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, 2:294; bold emphasis mine)

[Russ]

Russ,

I am not a Mormon ...

Below are some related Mormon Teachings from the Mormon personal study guide and teacher's manual called Gospel Principles. It can be found at the official Mormon web site www.lds.org or see the links below

He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father

(Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 47)

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

The Lord has said that if we are true and faithful, . . . We will become gods. (See D&C 132:19-20.)

(Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 38)

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-48,00.html

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught: "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top . . . This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. ... He was once a man like us . . ."

(Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 47)

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

Because we are the spiritual children of our heavenly parents, we have inherited the potential to develop their divine qualities.

(Mormon Gospel Principles Chapter 2)

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-5,00.html

Thanks, I'll use those.

[Russ]

I don't think you can quote just any member. You'd have to get leadership quotes if you want to be fair while writing your article.

Thanks, but I find that bit confusing.

I'm told by various Mormons that if I want to know what LDS believe I should ask a Mormon.

I'm told by various others that if I want to know what LDS believe I should read the Book of Mormon.

I'm told by various others that if I want to know what LDS believe I should read the works of their authorities, but I'm told by various others still that I need to be careful doing that becaue perhaps that was "only their opinion."

I found this:

Scanned copy. Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Church Education System, Department of Seminaries and Institutes of Religion, Salt Lake City, Utah 1976, 1992, pg. 132

Would Mormons here present agree or disagree?

[Anijen]

Russ in my own observations of your writings and views you are a anti Mormon and anti Christ you lead weak people down to hell and cause some to lose or weaken their own beliefs. For those who leave this church because of your writings and or false preachings they would end up atheist or at worse with such a loss of spiritual securement they lose self worth and that is exactly what Satan wants. If you spent the same amount of time study the scriptures and truly following Christ as you do tearing down the Lords church you would be great like unto Alma the Younger. Repent brother please.

[jerryp48]

Exacty what do you believe eternity has in store for you Russ?

Do you find surprising no one wants to help you figure out where to best land a blow?

[Russ]

Russ in my own observations of your writings and views you are a anti Mormon and anti Christ you lead weak people down to hell and cause some to lose or weaken their own beliefs. For those who leave this church because of your writings and or false preachings they would end up atheist or at worse with such a loss of spiritual securement they lose self worth and that is exactly what Satan wants. If you spent the same amount of time study the scriptures and truly following Christ as you do tearing down the Lords church you would be great like unto Alma the Younger. Repent brother please.

Based on knowing several ex-Mormons, I'd say that it takes a great deal of strength and courage with the help of the Holy Spirit, to do a serious investigation of LDS theology.

The BoA, for example.

I agree with you that many who come to know the LDS church isn't true will mostly turn agnostic or atheist. That's indeed a pity.Where does one go when they find out that the "only true church on the face of the earth" isn't true?