Eternal Progression

[Flyonthewall]

Okay, do you or don't you believe you'll become a God or Goddess over another planet and people it with your spirit-children?

Romans 8:14-19, though I'm sure you will interpret it differently. Pay special atttention to verse 17.

[Aquilifer]

Okay, do you or don't you believe you'll become a God or Goddess over another planet and people it with your spirit-children?

This exaltation = "get a planet of my own" is something one only hears on your side of the divide, Russ, usually as a means of shocking the uninformed about how flaky LDS beliefs are. I have never, ever heard it taught as a tenet of LDS theology. And before you respond with some obscure quote from The Seer, bear in mind that a theology can only exist to the extent that it is actively taught. Otherwise, it isn't much of a theology.

[Zakuska]

Aquilifer,

Seems to me to be biblically sound...

Rev. 21: 1

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isa. 65: 17

17

[Lachoneus]

Other LDS authorities have written volumes.

CFR

[Aquilifer]

Aquilifer,

Seems to me to be biblically sound...

Rev. 21: 1

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Isa. 65: 17

17

[Russ]

So you posted something without actually doing research on it to see if it's accurate. How surprising.

Let me educate you: http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/When_the_Proph...nking_Done.html

Re-check the article at your conveinence.

Do you object to being quoted?

[Russ]

CFR

Joseph Smith (1844, the year he was murdered) said, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man ... We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg.345).

"Here, then, is eternal life -- to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God.... " (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 346, 347)

Fifth LDS president: "Why, we are just beginning to find out that we are the offspring of God, born with the same faculties and powers as He possesses, capable of enlargement through the experience that we are now passing through in our second estate... He has given us faculties and powers that are capable of enlargement until His fulness is reached which He has promisedâ??until we shall sit upon thrones, governing and controlling our posterity from eternity to eternity, and increasing eternally. That is the fact in regard to these matters." The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p.2 1898-1901

LDS Apostle James Talmage wrote: "We believe in a God who is Himself progressive, whose majesty is intelligence; whose perfection consists in eternal advancement - a Being who has attained His exalted state by a path which now His children are permitted to follow, whose glory it is their heritage to share. In spite of the opposition of the sects, in the face of direct charges of blasphemy, the church proclaims the eternal truth: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be.'" (Articles of Faith, p. 430.) Early 1900s

Man is God in embryo

"Mormonism be it true or false, holds out to men the greatest inducements that the human mind can grasp. It teaches men that they can become divine, that man is God in embryo, that God was once man in mortality, and that the only difference between Gods, angels and men is a difference in education and development. Is such a religion to be sneered at? It teaches that the worlds on high, the stars that glitter in the blue vault of heaven, are kingdoms of God, that they were once earths like this, that they have been redeemed and glorified by the same laws, the same principles that are applied to this planet, and by which it will ascend to a perfected and glorified state. It teaches that these worlds are peopled with human beings, God's sons and daughters, and that every husband and father, may become an Adam, and every wife and mother an Eve, to some future planet." Mormon Apostle Orson F. Whitney Collected Discourses, Vol. 4, June 9, 1895

"Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing." -Milton R. Hunter, First Council of the Seventy 1945-1975

"Let me ask, are we not taught that we as sons of God may become like him? Is not this a glorious thought? Yet we have to pass through mortality and receive the resurrection and then go on to perfection just as our Father did before us. The Prophet taught that our Father had a Father and so on. Is not this a reasonable thought, especially when we remember that the promises are made to us that we may become like him?" 10th LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith Doctrines of Salvation 1:12 (LDS president: 1970-1972)

12th LDS president Spencer W. Kimball: "Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility." The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.28 (LDS president 1973-1985)

"We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were said by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: 'As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.' This is a power available to us as we reach perfection and receive the experience and power to create, to organize, to control native elements. How limited we are now! We have no power to force the grass to grow, the plants to emerge, the seeds to develop." - Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference, April 1977

"On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62); and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become!" - Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, General Conference, October 1994

The concept of God being an exalted man has been taught in the LDSChurch as recently as 2005 in an official LDSChurch publication:

"Many religions teach that human beings are children of God, but often their conception of Him precludes any kind of bond resembling a parent-child relationship. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught of a much simpler and more sensible relationship: â??God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit â?¦ was to make himself visible â?¦ , you would see him like a man in formâ??like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another." - Strengthening the Family: Created in the Image of God, Male and Female, The Ensign, Jan. 2005, pg. 48

[Russ]

This exaltation = "get a planet of my own" is something one only hears on your side of the divide, Russ, usually as a means of shocking the uninformed about how flaky LDS beliefs are. I have never, ever heard it taught as a tenet of LDS theology. And before you respond with some obscure quote from The Seer, bear in mind that a theology can only exist to the extent that it is actively taught. Otherwise, it isn't much of a theology.

Personally, I've known several people (Christian and non) who find LDS theology shocking.

I do too.

I've responded with much more than The Seer

Watch this:

Do you agree or disagree?

Romans 8:14-19, though I'm sure you will interpret it differently. Pay special atttention to verse 17.

Hard to tell, but I'll assume you answered "yes."

[Daniel Peterson]

Personally, I've known several people (Christian and non) who find LDS theology shocking.

I do too.

So what?

Muslims are sometimes shocked by Christian theology. (I know. I've spoken with them.)

Secularists often profess to be shocked by theism.

Ancient pagans found Christianity shocking and blasphemous.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes found ancient Judaism shockingly depraved, which led to the Hasmonean Revolt.

I'm sometimes shocked by the behavior and beliefs of extreme fundamentalist Protestants.

What somebody finds "shocking" may or may not tell us more about the thing producing the shock than about the person professing to be shocked.

[Aquilifer]

Personally, I've known several people (Christian and non) who find LDS theology shocking.

I do too.

I've responded with much more than The Seer

Watch this:

Do you agree or disagree?

Hard to tell, but I'll assume you answered "yes."

If you were so certain of your sources and "real" Mormon theology, you wouldn't be here seeking affirmation for your "article".

The truly insulting thing is the limitation you impose on exaltation by handing out planets to the saved. If we are to inherit all that God has, what makes you think that the Mormon view of exaltation entails standing in line while planets are handed out? "Worlds without number have I created." The Mormon theology of exaltation is far grander than you think, so when you tell me it involves getting a planet of my own, I know that you are hardly scratching the surface of Mormon thought.

How Christian do you consider the doctrine of theosis among well-established Christian groups? If you are going to tackle Mormon deification, I expect you to take into account similar strains of thought elsewhere in Christianity.

[Russ]

So what?

Muslims are sometimes shocked by Christian theology. (I know. I've spoken with them.)

Secularists often profess to be shocked by theism.

Ancient pagans found Christianity shocking and blasphemous.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes found ancient Judaism shockingly depraved, which led to the Hasmonean Revolt.

I'm sometimes shocked by the behavior and beliefs of extreme fundamentalist Protestants.

What somebody finds "shocking" may or may not tell us more about the thing producing the shock than about the person professing to be shocked.

No doubt, Daniel. As you well know, the Christian world still rejects LDS theology insofar that men become Gods over other planets.

What I'll take away from this discussion with you is that rather than answering directly you told me to go look for your articles...and that's that.

Rather than have me walk away wondering why you told me to "go fish," would you be so kind as to link to a specific article or articles?

[Russ]

If you were so certain of your sources and "real" Mormon theology, you wouldn't be here seeking affirmation for your "article".

The truly insulting thing is the limitation you impose on exaltation by handing out planets to the saved. If we are to inherit all that God has, what makes you think that the Mormon view of exaltation entails standing in line while planets are handed out? "Worlds without number have I created." The Mormon theology of exaltation is far grander than you think, so when you tell me it involves getting a planet of my own, I know that you are hardly scratching the surface of Mormon thought.

How Christian do you consider the doctrine of theosis among well-established Christian groups? If you are going to tackle Mormon deification, I expect you to take into account similar strains of thought elsewhere in Christianity.

I'm not seeking affirmation. I'm querying (is that a word) Mormons to find out if they believe what LDS authorities have stated. If you don't want to tell me what you believe, so be it.

I've never thought nor have I ever stated that Mormons stand in line to receive a planet or planets.

I do indeed intend to tackle theosis. I plan to show how LDS apologists take C.S. Lewis out of context.

(I have a start on the article. If I were allowed to link to it, I would.)

I do not think that LDS exaltation is grand. I respectfully tell you that I disagree with the concept as a Christian doctrine in any way, shape or form.

[Russ]

... And before you respond with some obscure quote from The Seer, bear in mind that a theology can only exist to the extent that it is actively taught. Otherwise, it isn't much of a theology.

That's an interesting comment.

It seems LDS authorities are but, in your mind, commentators on what is or isn't.

[seishido01]

Russ,

I am an active member of the church and let me try to reply. As dubious (in my oppinion) as your motives seem from what I've read, I can't see how a response can possibly hurt the church or any of its members so I'll give this a go. Many before have done as you do and the church moves on as it will beyond your power (or satan's) to stop it. By the way this is my first formal post on this board besides my introduction, so I proceed while shaking my head wondering why it was this particular discussion I decided to get my feet wet on. But I digress.

Oh by the way. HI EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok here goes.

I believe it is fair to say that there are many in the church who believe very similar to what you are asking. I happen to be one of them (note I said similar, so if you want to know a specific on a given point I'd respectfully ask that you request it of me before you assume I feel any given way, and the same goes for anybody else. So please don't say to another person on this board "See --> Seishido01 thinks this so all Mormons must also") In addition, and of prime importance, is the fact that no one here can represent the church with any authority. This is part of why you have recieved some of the responses you have and some of the folks in this thread have directed you to official sources.

One thing I must say though is that you will not and can not convince me that your accepted theology is more "biblical" than ours. You error greatly when you define LDS belief against yours as "Mormon" vs. "Biblical" There are many here. Myself included, who would and can argure that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints follows the religion taught in the bible better than whatever "Christian" sect you belong too. (I don't know what one that is so I don't want to offend you by supposing one over the other)

I will freely admit that of myself I know of no biblical source that supports getting your own planet if you are "saved". Thought along those lines I think is based more so on our other scripture (which you most certainly reject) and logical thought which would lead those who believe in that scripture to arrive at the conclusion of ruling their own world as an exhalted being ect......

still, it doesn't really matter. One thing I feel I can say without getting slapped by other LDS members in this board is that we absolutely do believe we can become like God in every meaningful way, thus beciming gods ourselves. I am confident that the bible supports that doctrine, though it is obvious trading biblical verses with you on the subject will convince neither you or I to budge on the subject.

Review:

Yes I testify to you that I know I can become like my father in heaven if I follow the instructions (the gospel) to get me there.

And I believe (different than testify) that it is possible that such a course will lead me to involvement in the creation or peopleing of other planets somewhere in the FAR future, though that is pure speculation by myself at this point and is utterly unimportant to the issue of weather I am living as I should while in this life. (But dude, wouldn't it be cool!!!!!!!)

And yes Russ, you can quote me on the subject. Though I hope you use full, in context quotes please.

regards,

seishido01

[Aquilifer]

I am an active member of the church and let me try to reply. As dubious (in my oppinion) as your motives seem from what I've read, I can't see how a response can possibly hurt the church or any of its members so I'll give this a go.

Nooo! Seishido01 was so new, and yet we lost him to the dark side so quickly.

[seishido01]

Luke.......I am your father.

[Daniel Peterson]

No doubt, Daniel. As you well know, the Christian world still rejects LDS theology insofar that men become Gods over other planets.

The non-LDS-Christian world disagrees with uniquely LDS-Christian teachings.

That's rather like saying that no bachelors are married.

What I'll take away from this discussion with you is that rather than answering directly you told me to go look for your articles...and that's that.

I also told you why.

Don't forget that.

Rather than have me walk away wondering why you told me to "go fish," would you be so kind as to link to a specific article or articles?

No problem. Here are some links to specific articles:

http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/crohns/

http://www.schirmer.com/default.aspx?TabId...oserId_2872=764

http://www.interpatagonia.com/index_i.html

[Russ]

The non-LDS-Christian world disagrees with uniquely LDS-Christian teachings.

That's rather like saying that no bachelors are married.

I also told you why.

Don't forget that.

No problem. Here are some links to specific articles:

http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/crohns/

http://www.schirmer.com/default.aspx?TabId...oserId_2872=764

http://www.interpatagonia.com/index_i.html

lol, Daniel.

Touch

[Russ]

Russ,

I am an active member of the church and let me try to reply. As dubious (in my oppinion) as your motives seem from what I've read, I can't see how a response can possibly hurt the church or any of its members so I'll give this a go. Many before have done as you do and the church moves on as it will beyond your power (or satan's) to stop it. By the way this is my first formal post on this board besides my introduction, so I proceed while shaking my head wondering why it was this particular discussion I decided to get my feet wet on. But I digress.

Oh by the way. HI EVERYBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok here goes.

I believe it is fair to say that there are many in the church who believe very similar to what you are asking. I happen to be one of them (note I said similar, so if you want to know a specific on a given point I'd respectfully ask that you request it of me before you assume I feel any given way, and the same goes for anybody else. So please don't say to another person on this board "See --> Seishido01 thinks this so all Mormons must also") In addition, and of prime importance, is the fact that no one here can represent the church with any authority. This is part of why you have recieved some of the responses you have and some of the folks in this thread have directed you to official sources.

One thing I must say though is that you will not and can not convince me that your accepted theology is more "biblical" than ours. You error greatly when you define LDS belief against yours as "Mormon" vs. "Biblical" There are many here. Myself included, who would and can argure that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints follows the religion taught in the bible better than whatever "Christian" sect you belong too. (I don't know what one that is so I don't want to offend you by supposing one over the other)

I will freely admit that of myself I know of no biblical source that supports getting your own planet if you are "saved". Thought along those lines I think is based more so on our other scripture (which you most certainly reject) and logical thought which would lead those who believe in that scripture to arrive at the conclusion of ruling their own world as an exhalted being ect......

still, it doesn't really matter. One thing I feel I can say without getting slapped by other LDS members in this board is that we absolutely do believe we can become like God in every meaningful way, thus beciming gods ourselves. I am confident that the bible supports that doctrine, though it is obvious trading biblical verses with you on the subject will convince neither you or I to budge on the subject.

Review:

Yes I testify to you that I know I can become like my father in heaven if I follow the instructions (the gospel) to get me there.

And I believe (different than testify) that it is possible that such a course will lead me to involvement in the creation or peopleing of other planets somewhere in the FAR future, though that is pure speculation by myself at this point and is utterly unimportant to the issue of weather I am living as I should while in this life. (But dude, wouldn't it be cool!!!!!!!)

And yes Russ, you can quote me on the subject. Though I hope you use full, in context quotes please.

regards,

seishido01

lol. (shaking head)

What's with you folks calling me "du-bi-ous?"

I've been straight up with you from the start.

seishido01, thanks for your "opinion."

Yes, I can see many in the LDS church believe along the same lines as you, but most don't want to just come right out and say it.

You, however, are an honest, forthcoming Mormon who doesn't hide what he believes. So, Kudos.

But I'd rather not quote you. I've seen enough to know that even current-day LDS haven't changed from the days of Smith and Young. They still believe they'll become Gods over other planets and that they'll populate those planets with their spirit-children.

I'm off to go write an article.

God bless you folks for "putting up with an 'anti.'"

Russ

[Bee Eff]

Yes, I can see many in the LDS church believe along the same lines as you, but most don't want to just come right out and say it.

You, however, are an honest, forthcoming Mormon who doesn't hide what he believes. So, Kudos.

I responded as Christ did to the same question, are you calling Christ dishonest, hiding what He believed? Or are you saying I should not have followed His example?

[Calm]

Re-check the article at your conveinence.

Do you object to being quoted?

Yes, I object to you quoting me. Instead you should remove the quote as discredited by leadership or at least post the correction immediately following the ward teacher's message. Lower level writers and editors do not make doctrine. If you don't, it appears to me as if you are intentionally misrepresenting LDS belief by refusing to post what the official position was and instead choosing to use a discredited comment because it follows your own agenda.

[Calm]

If you were so certain of your sources and "real" Mormon theology, you wouldn't be here seeking affirmation for your "article".

I don't think he cares about that. I'm thinking he's merely looking for more ways to make his work appear credible.

[Russ]

I responded as Christ did to the same question, are you calling Christ dishonest, hiding what He believed? Or are you saying I should not have followed His example?

Sorry, Bee Eff. Yes, you and some others responded according to LDS doctrine. jkfrost too.

Kudos to you and others who responded as such. I apologize to those not mentioned.

Y'know what, though?

I get the feeling, for the most part, that the majority of LDS members on Internet discussion boards hide their real beliefs behind "milk before the meat."

I'd rather tell you every thing I know about my Jesus.

I believe that He is indeed God in the flesh. Emmanuel, God with us.

I believe He is my very Creator (not "participant" in creation) of all their is and sustainer of the oxygen we breathe.

I believe He is the Lamb found worthy to be slain and worshipped and prayed to as God. The only God.

[Russ]

I don't think he cares about that. I'm thinking he's merely looking for more ways to make his work appear credible.

Is that what you think?

I'm not grandstanding here, Calmoriah.

I'm not worried one iota about credibility in the eyes of those here present. I'll never have any anyway, as I'm not part of your system of belief. I'm an "outsider." A "Gentile." A "non-believer."

As I've said (trust me or don't), I'm looking to get my facts straight by asking LDS folks what they believe.

Isn't that what you want "anti's" to do?

[Russ]

Yes, I object to you quoting me. Instead you should remove the quote as discredited by leadership or at least post the correction immediately following the ward teacher's message. Lower level writers and editors do not make doctrine. If you don't, it appears to me as if you are intentionally misrepresenting LDS belief by refusing to post what the official position was and instead choosing to use a discredited comment because it follows your own agenda.

Fine. I added the quote at the end of the article and took out your name (which had been previously posted).

If "lower level" writers don't make doctrine, why am I chastised for quoting Smith, Young, Fielding Smith, McConkie and Hinckley?

Would you please present me with a list of authorities whom I may quote as to official LDS doctrine?

P.S. I just changed the article to read as follows:

One Mormon complained that I haven't given the whole story. A faithful Mormon (who desires that their name not be cited) wrote to me:

So you posted something without actually doing research on it to see if it's accurate. How surprising.

Let me educate you: link to FAIR article

One letter in response hardly undoes the preceding bundle. LDS members who continually question their leaders are routinely disfellowshipped or excommunicated.