Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[Silver Girl]

Because he loves us.

Sargon

Dude... I'm feeling the LOVE!!! LOL

[4truth]

Up until these last posts I've been observing this thread because I really don't know much about what Mormons believe about the great apostacy, but then Silver Girl posts this...

My question for Bob would be, "Why do you even care what a bunch of stupid Mormons believe??"

You have no intention of joining our Church... You seem to believe we are a bunch of mindless sheep, who are all going to Hell anyway... You seem to believe our scriptures provide teachings contrary to the word of God... And you obviously think you are far superior to we lowly "Mormons"... You know all, we know nothing... This appears to be a big game of semantics to you... You are playing games with things that we hold dear?? I am sorry that you have such an Un-Christian attitude... It makes me very sad for you....

First--and I can state this with absolute certainty--you will never be able to find a quote from Bob where he makes the types of characterizations about Mormons that you have just made. Those descriptors are yours and yours alone. Perhaps it makes you feel better to theorize that those of us who are highly critical of Joseph Smith must simply hate Mormons and see ourselves as "far superior to [you] lowly 'Mormons' " but you will never be able to find a quote from Bob (or me for that matter) that takes that approach. You must assume we are liars or something and behind your backs we talk openly about our hatred for you, but however you have arrived at that erroneous conclusion, nothing could be further from the truth.

What appears to be a "game of semantics" to you is quite serious to us whether you realize it or not, because we are convinced that you have been deceived. And that is not to say that Mormons must be stupid to fall for the deception. No. On the contrary, it is to say the deception is INDEED very, very deceptive.

Now you (TBMs) and we (critics) have a basic, fundamental difference of opinion as to who is being deceived here, but our differences are significant enough (contrary to what some may say) that one side (or both) have to be wrong. Both sides simply cannot be right. One side is deceived. We attempt to show, as politely as possible (which is not always possible) the reasons why we believe you have been deceived by Joseph Smith.

The apostacy case Bob is making is merely ONE of the many problems we see when we look critically at Joseph Smith and the religion he founded. It is not on the basis of this one item that we have arrived at our critical conclusions about Joseph Smith. It is, rather, the weight of all the problematic evidence, when considered as a whole, that leads us to our conclusions.

Why don't EVs realize that you can disagree with others, and still be loving to them??

Why don't TBMs realize that demonstrating where someone else has been deceived IS being loving?

I guess it wouldn't score you as many "points" in your little game... That REALLY makes me sad for you...

Silver Girl

What really makes me sad is that you actually believe our motivation is to cause trouble and play games!

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Call us whatever you want. Offer unnecessary grief over our miserable condition, but until you understand our true motivation, you will never accurately characterize our position.

One TBM who gets it--and has not compromised any to get to that position--is Aussie. Although it took him a while to get there, at least with Aussie, we can have a reasonable--even meaningful--dialogue. And although I've never met him personally, he is one TBM I consider a friend. You would do well to observe the tone of his posts before attempting to express more pity on our behalf.

[PacMan]

4Truth and Everyone else...

Stop introducing red herrings. They derail the thread, and rather irrelevant to the rather simple issue at hand. Wax philosophical elsewhere.

Bob Betts,

The claim is, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." That didn't happen if those four were on the earth.

I think this is the third time I've corrected you. You have yet to show why this is necessary and are making an unnecessary and rather untrue presumption. There is a fundamental difference from the priesthood being taken FROM the earth, and OFF the earth. The earth and her inhabitants had no association with the true church nor those ordained leaders, DESPITE the continuance of these leaders (John, etc.) ministry, because the early church members had fallen away and what was the church organization was no more. If John didn't reorganize the church, then it wasn't done. What relation that has with his authority, I haven't the foggiest idea.

Go back and read my last post (I know you've got a que). That being said, again, to all ya'lls....stay on topic.

PacMan

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Why don't TBMs realize that demonstrating where someone else has been deceived IS being loving?

What really makes me sad is that you actually believe our motivation is to cause trouble and play games!

Actually what is the Christ like way to talk to somebody. I certainly dont remember him saying lets all go to the jewish synagouge and make sighns saying the pharasees lied. I dont remeber Jesus makeing a mock of things people hold sacred, even if he thought it was flase or knew it was. AS I recall many times, Jesus said nothing. THe problem comes when we give an answer and Bob says, I dont get why you dont see it its right there. All of in the witch he has ignorded the given answer. Here is a little snippet from a previous post.

LDS says,

Bob, i know you really seem to beleive yer on to something hear? But you are not listening or making any kind of rational desicions whatsoever, either that or you refuse to let your mind understand the obvious?

Bob Says

Or, the other way around. Maybe it's you all.

A universal apostasy was supposed to have taken place after the deaths of the Apostles. Yet, one Apostle never died, and three others, granted the same permission, and at least acting as Apostles, are doing the very thing that was supposed to have ceased. THAT'S what's obvious to ME. Telling me I don't understand and that I'm not being rational makes NO sense to me.

So what other conclusion can be made. Bob is clearly more superior than the lowley pondsum merman type. It couldnt possibly be him in the error when trying to understand doctrine that he doesnt not believe in. He has not studied to find the answer his only motivation is to bring up what may look like a possible contradiction. At any rate Bob clearly believe we arent thinking. Or course we clearly thing that he isnt thinking, So witch one is it???

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

4Truth and Everyone else...

Stop introducing red herrings. They derail the thread, and rather irrelevant to the rather simple issue at hand. Wax philosophical elsewhere.

PacMan

Looks like I played into the red herring. Doh.

[4truth]

Pac:

Wax philosophical elsewhere.

And where exactly might the proper elsewhere on this board be located in which an Evan can wax?

Or was yours a rhetorical comment?

Are we to simply ignore comments like the ones I responded to?

[freakin a man]

The facts are is that there is no evidence that John or the Three Nephites ordained anyone to the Priesthood or used that Priesthood to baptize or confirm the Holy Ghost on anyone during the apostasy period. So effectively, the priesthood was taken from the people on the earth because they could not receive the blessings from it.

When Moroni was alone and wandering around, there is no indication that Moroni went around and baptized anyone or ordained anyone to the priesthood. Those that came in contact with him had a priesthood holder in their mist, but they apparently did not receive the blessings as a result.

So unless Mr Betts can show examples of these 4 translated beings ordaining people to the priesthood and baptizing people and giving these baptizing people the authority to baptize, ect, then during the apostasy period, we know that not one mortal was baptized in the proper authority, not one mortal person was ordained to the Aaronic and Melchezdek priesthood. Then the LDS position is sustained and a need for a restoration to occur that would allow mortal people to be ordained and receive the ordinances.

So Mr Betts, where are your examples throughout the apostasy period.

[Bob Betts]

Bob

What does apostacy mean?

Do you want a dictionary definition or a LDS definition? Dictionary: renunciation of faith; abandonment of what one has professes.

LDS: Turning away from or leaving the teachings of the gospel.

I dont think you know judgeing from the first line that I left in your responce. Has Christ had His second comming yet Bob?I really cant add any more than what has been said.

No.

[Bob Betts]

Mola, Notice how he ignores those posts that he cannot explain, I suppose it is like he reads scriptures. Apparently if he is not able to ban someone like on his site, he just puts them on "Ignore" and just keeps on spewing.

Would it be against the rules to teach people how to practice occultism?

Off topic?

[captain-jack]

Mr. Betts, I really don't want to side track you or put one more question in the pile, but I hope you can get to my question. It's been asked twice, once here, and the other is in another thread. If it is derailing to this thread, please just answer in the other thread. My earlier post in this thread links to it.

[thesometimesaint]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

a

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

For what? The four priesthood holders in question got special permission from Christ. Did Christ disobey some quorum rule the Bible never talks about?

I'm the lead moderator at the Concerned Christians Discussion Board.

What are you "Concerned" about? What about removing the "beam from your own eye first" the EV church is in a tailspin. Gay's being ordained. One of your "standard bearers" Charles Stanley refusing to give up his pupit after 40 years of preaching aganist divored ministers. Benny Hinn teaching that before the fall, women we designed to give birth from their side (Ribcage). Oral Roberts exstorting money by telling people God would kill him it he did not get 8,000,000 from his followers. Read Hank's book..."Christianity in Crisis". Clean up your own house first. Charity begins at home. But then again anti-Mormonism pays well doesn't it.

[Anijen]

What are you "Concerned" about? What about removing the "beam from your own eye first" the EV church is in a tailspin. Gay's being ordained. One of your "standard bearers" Charles Stanley refusing to give up his pupit after 40 years of preaching aganist divored ministers. Benny Hinn teaching that before the fall, women we designed to give birth from their side (Ribcage). Oral Roberts exstorting money by telling people God would kill him it he did not get 8,000,000 from his followers. Read Hank's book..."Christianity in Crisis". Clean up your own house first. Charity begins at home. But then again anti-Mormonism pays well doesn't it.

I was going to reply the same thing but Papa you said it first

CC and all other anti Mormon crusades should clean up their own house first.

There are many on this board who are EV's that I respect because they are concerned without being deceitful, to name a few Rhino comes to mind, Chris Smith and others...

[Bob Betts]

Bob Betts,

What? So what? It DID! After the deaths of the Apostles, the apostasy took place. Whyâ??s this hard to understand!? Ohâ?¦I know, because youâ??re confounding â??Apostlesâ? with, â??All of the Apostles.â?

Then, are you telling me that before all the Apostles were dead, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from (or OFF) the earth?

The problem, Bob, is that youâ??re using your paradigm to correct the LDS view. For example, in your mind, all the Apostles died. Thus, you find it inconceivable how when the LDS manuals refer to â??apostles,â? theyâ??re not referring to them all. So you ignore the small fact, structure your strawman, and continue.

So yes, you donâ??t understand, and youâ??re not being rationale. The issue is simple:

1- Because an individual has the keys, doesnâ??t mean they need use them.

Yet, Christ promised the four that they would use them, while the world shall stand, when He granted them the power and keys of His ministry.

2- If you have the keys, you can still baptize, proselyte, etc., without organizing the church.

Precisely. Which means the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were NOT taken from (or OFF) the earth.

Youâ??ve seemed to grasp at a notion that since they were out there, there couldnâ??t be an apostasy.

More precisely, that because they were out there, the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were NOT taken from (or OFF) the earth. Thus, the LDS manuals contradict the alleged facts surrounding the priesthood activities of the four, who were given power and the keys of Christ's ministry, until His return (D&C 7:7).

Youâ??re, again, wrong. The apostasy came about when the members of the church (and itâ??s local leadership) for good intent or bad, distanced themselves from the church, sufficient that they were fallen away.

According to Christ's callings on the four (who were members and leaders), and your church's belief that they're around today, they never distanced themselves from the church, and they always held the keys. Since those four didn't die, and they held and used the priesthood keys and priesthood authority, then the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were still on the earth.

For purposes known to the Lord (and anybody with half a creative neuron in their cranium), the church was not reorganized at the time and those permitted to live, ministered in very isolated ministriesâ?¦never intending to reestablish the organization of the church. Yes, Jesus DID give those keys to Johnâ?¦but the real evidence is in Matthew 16, and 18; but thatâ??s semantics). Againâ?¦and Iâ??ll type it slowly (although it doesnâ??t give the dramatic effect that Iâ??d hope), because one has keys does not mean they need be used. The priesthood was take from the earthâ??not to be again perpetuated and used for the organization of the church. But it was not taken OFF the earth, for through it was John able to continue to minister, bless, and prepare.

NOWâ?¦please explain what part of that is incomprehensible.

The part that, 1) though Christ gave the power and keys of His ministry to be used until His return, and 2) though they were using that power and those keys to bring souls to Christ, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost," which they were promised by Christ that they would do until His return, and 3) though they were granted that they would "minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them," nevertheless, you still think the manual is right, that priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority WERE taken from the earth?

You say, "at the time and those permitted to live, ministered in very isolated ministries."

3 Nephi 28:29 says, "they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them."

D&C 7:3 says, "And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people."

Your statement and these verses don't match.

You say, "[The Lord] never intending to reestablish the organization of the church."

The BoM never states that the church was unestablished, to begin with. 3 Nephi 28:18, 23 says that in A.D. 34-35, they were "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost." When did the church ever cease to be established, according to the BoM?

And, as late as A.D. 401 in the (Mormon 8:10-11), they were still ministering. There is no mention, up to this point, that there was an apostasy, or that their power, priesthood keys and authority had been taken from them, or that Christ had withdrawn His promise that they would use them while the earth shall stand, unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

Your statement and your manual, don't match your scriptures.

You stated, "because one has keys does not mean they need be used."

But, your scriptures indicates that Christ made a promise to them that was to be in affect while the earth shall stand, and that they were given the power and keys of Christ's ministry. If they were not to be used, what use was Christ's promise?

You stated, "The priesthood was take from the earthâ??not to be again perpetuated and used for the organization of the church. But it was not taken OFF the earth, for through it was John able to continue to minister, bless, and prepare."

But, in light of your scriptures, I see no hint that their priesthood power, keys and authority were taken from (or OFF) the earth. Rather, I see a promise of Christ that their priesthood power, keys and authority for bringing souls to Christ, uniting them to the church, baptizing and receiving the HG, would remain until His return.

I would think that if there had been a reversal of Christ's promise to the four, and a withdrawal of their priesthood power, keys and authority before A.D. 401, there would be some mention of it in the BoM. Yet, all we know, from what is written in the BoM, is that the promise of Christ was, and is still in affect.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yet, Christ promised the four that they would use them, while the world shall stand, when He granted them the power and keys of His ministry.

Please tell us from Our cannon that what you stated above means that they will have to be preaching for the past 1500 years. The last question you answerd of mine was, "no". That was in responce to me asking you if Christ had returned for his 2nd comming. Is the earth passed away yet? Of course not. So that mean the promise is fullfilled and still being fullfilled. IT didnt mean that they had to use the priesthood say, in 700 AD.

For more perspective on this see Matt24. Particularly verse 34

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Some speculate that Jesus was supposed to return before that generation meaning, the ones that lived when Christ was on the earth, should not pass away until the things he spoke of should happen. Now obviously that generation passed away, and those things didnt happen. So from this we can learn that Christ is talking about the generation in witch these things should come to pass, they shall not pass until these things in witch Christ talked about shall happen.

IT is the same things here. It doesnt matter when the 4 fullfilled thier duty. You cannot come to any arguemnet from scriptures saying that the 4 had been using thier priesthood during the apostacy. In other words, just becuase they had it doesnt mean they used it. Do you not see this? If so can you kindley tell us from scripture that they were using it during that apostacy and that they remained on the earth. The scripture Lightbearer quoted said that becuase of wickedness the 3 were taken away. If the principle is the same, then wickedness would drive them away from the world.

Thank you for the reply and kind discussion.

[T-Shirt]

The part that, 1) though Christ gave the power and keys of His ministry to be used until His return, and 2) though they were using that power and those keys to bring souls to Christ, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost," which they were promised by Christ that they would do until His return, and 3) though they were granted that they would "minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them," nevertheless, you still think the manual is right, that priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority WERE taken from the earth?

Bob, Why do you continue to ignore chronology and context? This is getting to be rather silly. I think you are being intentionally obtuse.

3 Nephi 28:29 says, "they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them."

Bob, why do you continue to leave off the first 15 words of this verse? I have asked this of you before, but as of yet you have skipped over it. You have quoted 3 Nephi 28:29 numerous times in this thread, but you have not yet quoted it in its entirety. Why? Please quote the first 15 words and then give us your interpretation.

Regards,

T-Shirt

[Bob Betts]

So In other words. Lightbearer, your just wrong, Im totaly going to ignor the qualifiers here. It just says upon the land and thats all I care about. Nothing you say Lightbearer will make me see your points.

Bob, You seem to equate some one holding the Priesthood keys to some one being able to exersis all of the keys. That is not the same thing. I hold the highets priesthood. It is the same priesthood Christ holds and our current prophet, now I do not have the keys to do what the prophet does. Why is this Bob. Do you know? Are you starting to see the points now?

Earlier this morning, I gave a lengthy reply to pacman, and I'm pretty sure I covered these bases of yours, in that response. I'll stand by that.

[Bob Betts]

Here is the deal. What has everyone been telling you? Please summerize it. You are correct that it is possible that 4 priesthood holders could have been physically on the earth. I see your point. I have stated at least 2 time that it is pure speculation to say weather they were still on this earth or not. IT doesnt say one way or another.

Then, what does 3 Nephi 28:9 mean to you: "And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the asins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand."

And, what does D&C 7:3 mean to you: "And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people."

In light of these verses, I fail to see how you conclude that the four were not, and are not still, on the earth.

Also even if they were preaching and teaching and baptizing thwy would have not had the keys to organize a church.

Okay, 1) but it was Christ who organized His Church. When did it become not organized? 2) If the four had the power and keys of Christ's ministry "while the earth shall stand," then how is it possible to claim that, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." Besides, PacMan inferred to me that all the Apostles didn't die.

If I was one of the 4 priesthood holders I would not have the keys or the aurthority to do so. Does this make sence?

Not in light of D&C 7:7. John WAS given this power and the keys of Christ's ministry until Christ's return. And, the three were given the same things that John was given.

[Bob Betts]

It is very obvious that you don't. You keep harping on 3 Nephi 28:29 but you completely ignore the preceeding passages, and more importantly, you ignore the first 15 words of verse 29. What do you think those 15 words mean, Bob?

T-Shirt

1) I've been harping on a whole lot more than verse 29; 2) I haven't ignored anything. I've read this chapter over and over, several times for context, consistency, and reasonableness; 3) I think those first 15 words could mean that there were breaks in the use of the priesthood authority and keys. But, there is no indication that they were taken away from the four, and taken from the earth. For that to have happened, Christ would have had to break His promises to them.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Then, what does 3 Nephi 28:9 mean to you: "And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the asins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand."

Bob

I thought I was quite clear in this. Does the world still stand? Yes!!!! It does. That doesnt mean that the 3 nephites had to with, no other options be preaching for the past 1500 years and baptizing. You cannot from scripture show that they have. How then can this be fullfilled. Well since the earth has not passed away, they are currently fullfilling this. For some reason you fail to understand this point.

latter in the BoM it tells us that God took away the 3 nephites.

Why did God take them away?

So if wickedness took them away what would bring them back? Oppostion in all things, remember that.

Apperantly you feel in a literal interpretation of "while the world shall stand" That this means that the 3Nephites had no other option but to be preaching. This is not the case. Other scripture points this out. becuase of wickedness they were taken away.

[4truth]

Pa Pa

What are you "Concerned" about? What about removing the "beam from your own eye first" the EV church is in a tailspin. Gay's being ordained. One of your "standard bearers" Charles Stanley refusing to give up his pupit after 40 years of preaching aganist divored ministers. Benny Hinn teaching that before the fall, women we designed to give birth from their side (Ribcage). Oral Roberts exstorting money by telling people God would kill him it he did not get 8,000,000 from his followers. Read Hank's book..."Christianity in Crisis". Clean up your own house first. Charity begins at home. But then again anti-Mormonism pays well doesn't it.

Benny Hinn and Oral Roberts are not Evangelicals. Perhaps you should re-read Hank's book.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

.

Okay, 1) but it was Christ who organized His Church. When did it become not organized? 2) If the four had the power and keys of Christ's ministry "while the earth shall stand," then how is it possible to claim that, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." Besides, PacMan inferred to me that all the Apostles didn't die.

K this is simple. It takes 12 apostles and a prophet at the head to make the church. You must acknowledge that after about 100 AD give or take a few years, there is no 12 apostles. This is the foundation of the church. Paul in his epistle to the ephisians tells us that the church is built upon the foundation of prophets and apostles with Christ being the chief corner stone. This is what is meant by the preisthood authority. The fulness of the priesthood authority can only be excersied when you have the 12 apostles. They were not on the earth, hence the presiding authority was taken off the earth.

Christ church was nolonger organize on the earth in its fulness becuase it lacked the apostles. do You see?

Not in light of D&C 7:7. John WAS given this power and the keys of Christ's ministry until Christ's return. And, the three were given the same things that John was given.

This is not the same authority that a prophet or what Peter held. President Hinckley is consider to be the present day Peter. These 3 nephites and John do not equal Peter. Your point here is moot.

[Bob Betts]

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. First of all Universal has some nuances of meaning. According to the dictionary it can also mean pertaining to the whole (Not necessarily ALL) or general (as in widespread) or "characterizing all or most members of a class; generic. "

Does any nuance of definition change the fact that priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were allegedly taken from the earth, with the death of the Apostles, notwithstanding that one never died, and the four priesthood holders had the power and keys of Christ's ministry, promised until the Lord's return?

Were all the apostles dead or were they not? If they were, then how is it that John was allowed to tarry, according to D&C 7:2-3. If not, then John and the Nephites apparently had the power and keys of Christ's ministry until Christ's return, as Christ promised.

Where is there anything written in LDS scripture that Christ withdrew His promise, withdrew their power and priesthood keys and authority, and took it from the earth? Not in the BoM. Something that momentous would certainly be mentioned in the BoM. What we DO see in the BoM, is that in A.D. 401, they were still ministering (Mor. 8:10-11). That date is hundreds of years after the Mormon church suggests the complete apostasy of authority took place, or began. And, according to Christ's promises to them, to continue "while the world shall stand."

[Bob Betts]

What sort of answer would you accept as "credible"?

"Your lordship Betts, we surrender all our rights to intelligent thought because you are the sole arbiter of truth. We succumb to your superior ability to interpret traditions and religions that you are not a part of, and of which we are. We, as Mormons, are incapable of approaching you with anything resembling a logical argument, and therefore we retreat and wish you well."

Is this the kind of credible answer that would satisfy you?

Sargon

I won't dignify this. It's too mean-spirited.

[Lachoneus]

Where is there anything written in LDS scripture that Christ withdrew His promise, withdrew their power and priesthood keys and authority, and took it from the earth?

Where is there anything written in LDS scripture that Christ gave the Three Nephites any keys at all?

Where does it say he gave them "presiding authority"?