Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[Bob Betts]

Okay, 1) but it was Christ who organized His Church. When did it become not organized? 2) If the four had the power and keys of Christ's ministry "while the earth shall stand," then how is it possible to claim that, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." Besides, PacMan inferred to me that all the Apostles didn't die.

K this is simple. It takes 12 apostles and a prophet at the head to make the church.

There were more than 12 Apostles at a time in the NT. Starting with the 11 Apostles, Matthias took Judas' place (Acts 1:24); other Apostles were Barnabas & Paul (Acts 14:4, 14), Adronicus & Junia (Rom. 16:7), Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25), Timothy & Silas (1 Thess. 2:6).

You must acknowledge that after about 100 AD give or take a few years, there is no 12 apostles. This is the foundation of the church. Paul in his epistle to the ephisians tells us that the church is built upon the foundation of prophets and apostles with Christ being the chief corner stone. This is what is meant by the preisthood authority. The fulness of the priesthood authority can only be excersied when you have the 12 apostles. They were not on the earth, hence the presiding authority was taken off the earth.

Christ church was nolonger organize on the earth in its fulness becuase it lacked the apostles. do You see?

The Apostles didn't all die at once. Are you telling me that as the Apostles were martyred, and when the number of them got down to eleven or less, then their priesthood authority could no longer be exercized?

Not in light of D&C 7:7. John WAS given this power and the keys of Christ's ministry until Christ's return. And, the three were given the same things that John was given.

This is not the same authority that a prophet or what Peter held. President Hinckley is consider to be the present day Peter. These 3 nephites and John do not equal Peter.

It doesn't matter who holds which keys. The LDS manual claims, "priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." How many keys, and how much authority were allegedly taken from the earth? If all, then how come the four had them, even though they wer allegedly all taken from the earth? Your scriptures tell us that all four held priesthood power, authority and keys of Christ's ministry. Therefore, the manual claim is contradictory.

Your point here is moot.

Not until you reconcile the LDS scriptural fact that John and the Nephites DID have the power and keys of Christ's ministry, contradicting the claim that the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth.

[Bob Betts]

Where is there anything written in LDS scripture that Christ withdrew His promise, withdrew their power and priesthood keys and authority, and took it from the earth?

Where is there anything written in LDS scripture that Christ gave the Three Nephites any keys at all?

Where does it say he gave them "presiding authority"?

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

3 Nephi 28:6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

If John received the power and keys of Christ's ministry, so that his desire to tarry and bring souls to Christ could be fulfilled, and the three had the same exact desire as John which Christ also granted, how would they be able to fulfill their exact same desire as John's, without Christ giving them the exact same power and keys of Christ's ministry which John received?

[Paul Ray]

I think you might need to study some more about how the priesthood in our church actually functions.

... with the understanding that we claim it functions the same way as it did in former days.

The keys of the kingdom can only be exercised with the consent of the quorum who has the legal right to exercise them.

If the President of the Church is living, the First Presidency is leading quorum, and he works in harmony with his counselors to govern the Church... if/when that is the will of our Lord.

When the President of the Church dies, as ours will soon, the Quorum of Twelve Apostles is the leading quorum, and they work in harmony with each other until they appoint another presiding quorum... if/when that is the will of our Lord.

So, considering our belief that the Church functioned the same way in former days as it does today:

What if:

Our Lord gave revelation to his first apostles letting them know there weren't any other people living then who were qualified to righteously exercise the keys of the kingdom so he was removing the keys from the Earth until later when the Lord would restore the keys of the kingdom?

That is a possibility, isn't it?

The keys of the kingdom have to be righteously exercised, otherwise they will be withdrawn.

... even if people are still performing the ordinances that normally accompany the conferring of the keys upon others.

[Bob Betts]

Wilford Woodruff, the fourth president of the Church, stated that there must be at least a majority of the quorum of the 12 in order to appoint a new president.

That would mean at least 6 of the twelve would have to be present.

Even if we give full weight to Mr. Betts' arguments about the 4 who tarried, and even if they all got together and had a pow-wow, they would still not make a sufficient number to constitute a quorum. Hence, they would not have the power and authority to reconstitute the Church.

Does this in any way help to answer Mr. Betts' objection?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

No.

1) You speak of REcontitution of the Church. But, if the apostasy never happened in light of the stories of the four, then the Church didn't need REconstituting.

2) You must admit that, if the D&C and BoM stories about these four were true, they were unique and special grants from Christ, which no one else had received. Since, according to these stories, these were special requests, with special granting from the Head of the Church, then you could hardly hold Christ to a rule (which isn't biblical, anyway) that their had to be a quorum of 12. It's His Church. Besides, as I pointed out a few posts earlier, there were several more than 12 Apostles in NT times, anyway.

[Bob Betts]

Bob, has spoken, all LDS are going to hell becuase LDS cannot be saved. Got it. Now back on topic.

You've misrepresented me. I have stated (someshere) that LDS can certainly be saved. But, they'd have to repent of Mormonism.

[gmormon]

You've misrepresented me. I have stated (someshere) that LDS can certainly be saved. But, they'd have to repent of Mormonism.

Pray tell exactly what sin is Mormonism. CFR

[John Williams]

You've misrepresented me. I have stated (someshere) that LDS can certainly be saved. But, they'd have to repent of Mormonism.

Isn't it bizarre that one must repent of not believing the correct extrabiblical dogma to be saved? I don't recall Jesus saying that anywhere.

[freakin a man]

You've misrepresented me. I have stated (someshere) that LDS can certainly be saved. But, they'd have to repent of Mormonism.

Why do we need to repent of Mormonism? If I walked up to some pastor and asked him how to be saved and I did not tell him my current position, he would not mention me of having to leave Mormonism. He would tell me to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior. Bob, now where in your "final authority you call the Bible" does Jesus say I or any LDS has to repent of Mormonism to be saved. I have not found the passage yet.

[Paul Ray]

No.

1) You speak of REcontitution of the Church. But, if the apostasy never happened in light of the stories of the four, then the Church didn't need REconstituting.

Each time a leader of the Church dies the leadership needs to be reconstituted.

The church is the people. You understand that concept don't you?

The church has people who are appointed to be leaders.

2) You must admit that, if the D&C and BoM stories about these four were true, they were unique and special grants from Christ, which no one else had received. Since, according to these stories, these were special requests, with special granting from the Head of the Church, then you could hardly hold Christ to a rule (which isn't biblical, anyway) that their had to be a quorum of 12. It's His Church.

They're our Lord's rules. He made them. Not just us.

Besides, as I pointed out a few posts earlier, there were several more than 12 Apostles in NT times, anyway.

The apostles were being killed, systematically.

We believe that at some point there weren't enough apostles living to appoint righteous successors.

[Bob Betts]

I did not mean to say you were not serious. Everything I know about you says you're dead serious. What I meant is that you're applying your approach to scripture on the assumption that Mormons read things the same way.

It's abundantly clear that LDS approach scripture differently than biblicists.

From what I can tell, you're trying to get Mormons to agree that there are problems with the doctrines;

There's a problem with their doctrine of a complete apostasy of authority after the death of the Apostles, when it's obvious that not all the Apostles died, and four men had the power and keys of Christ's ministry granted to them, while the earth shall stand, to bring souls to Christ. At the very least, that's a contradiction by most people's understanding.

but those problems arise only from a reading of those texts that most Mormons would not agree with. Thus, it's pointless prooftexting.

If, perhaps, just one person gets it, and sees the contradiction I see, then it's not pointless. I leave that entirely in God's hands. Thank you anyway, John.

[consiglieri]

No.

1) You speak of REcontitution of the Church. But, if the apostasy never happened in light of the stories of the four, then the Church didn't need REconstituting.

2) You must admit that, if the D&C and BoM stories about these four were true, they were unique and special grants from Christ, which no one else had received. Since, according to these stories, these were special requests, with special granting from the Head of the Church, then you could hardly hold Christ to a rule (which isn't biblical, anyway) that their had to be a quorum of 12. It's His Church. Besides, as I pointed out a few posts earlier, there were several more than 12 Apostles in NT times, anyway.

Thanks for noticing me, Bob.

1) I think you are missing my point about the necessity of a quorum to reconstitute the Church.

2) I think you compound your error here in the following manner--you have said on your own board that you are interested only in quotes from official LDS sources. I gave you one from Wilford Woodruff. In fact, this whole thread stems from your pitting one LDS source against another LDS source, by which you think you have shown a contradiction.

But here in your paragraph (2), you suddenly change the rules and fault my Wilford Woodruff quote by saying it "isn't biblical anyway."

I think this indicates you sense your argument slipping away from you at this point, as you seem to be changing the rules now, and have foresaken trying to show internal inconsistency between exclusively LDS sources; and are back to simply saying the Bible supports you.

I don't know if I have made this very clear, but it is the end of a long day.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bob Betts]

Hello Bob,

To begin, I'm not a member of the LDS and I was speaking to all denominations that preach they are the one true church (denomination) on the earth. I was speaking to all the "professors" who bring people to their denomination and not the Lord Jesus Christ. And I was speaking to all denominations that require members to profess certain creeds to prove faith. Apostasy is basically the worship of anything else besides God!

And, you may have told me you aren't LDS before and I forgot. Sorry. I DO agree with your comments.

So Yes, I do see some members of the LDS faith that promote how they are the one true church. But I can also point to members of MANY other denominations that also believe they attend the one true church as well. Priest contending against Priest and member against member. All fighting to prove who is "right" with the Lord, yet failing to follow the greatest commandments to love God and each other.

I don't find this kind of contention or fighting amongst mainstream, protestant, evangelical churches in Mesa and surrounding communities. None of them are claiming to be the only true church that I'm aware of. They'd be considered "fringe" if they did.

It's people that fall into apostasy and it is done when we fall to follow the commands of the Lord and follow. Now let's apply this concept to this thread. Are we seeking to prove how all of us are in apostasy by how this conversation is going?

Thanks for responding!

In Christ I Serve,

Thunderfire

No, that's not MY goal. My goal is to show from LDS scripture that no "complete apostasy of authority" ever occured, contrary to the LDS claim that it did.

Thank you for the question. I'll try to remember you're not LDS.

[auteur55]

The question was answered 100 posts ago.

The "inconsistency" has been refuted by LDS who see no contradiction.

Bob refuses to concede his point.

Bob you would have a lot more credibility if you acknowledged that the contradiction has been answered according to LDS belief. To keep straining and repeating the same argument over and over only portrays you as someone who can't stand to be wrong or corrected in any of your arguments against the church.

You may not like the answers because they then deflate your argument but they are the answers. If your goal is to save Mormons from a false religion you will need to show them contradictions and errors that exist within their own theological framework. When you post a contradiction and a 100 church members say it's not a contradiction at all because of this this this and this then it's time to find a new argument.

As you probably know, there are plenty of "supposed" contradictions and problems in Mormonism that you could address and highlight instead of harping on defiantly about this innocuous little 3 nephite tidbit.

[Bob Betts]

You have done great and have not missed any of my posts. I think we are posting much faster than you are. So its all good.

That might be because I'm slightly outnumbered and have other things to do besides this .

[Lachoneus]

If John received the power and keys of Christ's ministry, . . ..

Define "Christ's ministry" as used here. The scripture says only "this ministry." " . . . I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come." (D&C 7:7) Which ministry is that? What is "this power" mentioned in the same verse?

. . . so that his desire to tarry and bring souls to Christ could be fulfilled, and the three had the same exact desire as John which Christ also granted, how would they be able to fulfill their exact same desire as John's, without Christ giving them the exact same power and keys of Christ's ministry which John received?

In other words, the scriptures never explicitly say that the Three Nephites were ever given any keys at all. This is just your interpretation, something you came up with on your own.

Now what was it that John desired? "AND the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? . . . 2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee." (D&C 7:1-2) Notice that nothing is said about John desiring keys.

Notice also that Peter and James were given the exact same keys that were given to John (v.7) and they did not share John's desire and did not share his extended mission. Therefore, the keys given to John were not given to him for the purpose of accomplishing his expressed desire. Instead, the keys John received had other purposes, purposes he shared with Peter and James, not with the Three Nephites.

Your argument just does not hold up.

[Bob Betts]

I would be saved in the kingdom of God, in the highest heaven.

Bob we had a nice chat about Eternal security. We can rehash it if you want??

Not on THIS thread please.

[Bob Betts]

I am SO glad you have peace and happiness in your life, Bob... It is very comforting to have the power of the Atonement in our lives isn't it?? Can you believe that I have peace and happiness in my life too, even though I am merely a Mormon?? You see me as a lost and deluded individual, completely cut off from Christ... I do not see myself as a deluded individual at all... I am a very happy Christian, and SO thankful for the relationship I have with the Savior... You asked me if I died tonight, do I know where I would spend Eternity... Why, yes, I do, Bob... I would spend Eternity in the arms of my loving Savior, Jesus Christ... Who is merciful and loving to all His Father's children... Even the Mormon ones...

And, where does your church say some one like ME will spend eternity, even though I love God and my neighbor? Not with Heavenly Father? That's reserved for those baptized into YOUR church, who have jumped through all the LDS commandment and ordinance hoops (and I say that meaning no disrespect). I may love God and my neighbor as I should, but your religion would deny me a place with Heavely Father, because I'm not worthy without being baptized by the "proper authority." I'm sorry, Silver Girl, but that's not the gospel I read about in the NT. Your gospel is quite different. And, according to the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:6-9), a different gospel is a false gospel.

I'm leaving the Board for now. I shall return (if I'm allowed to ).

[Bernard Gui]

Plus the fact that there is not one word of mention in the BoM about an apostasy, that started during the time the your church claims, or anytime thereafter.

1. Doesn't mention the Jerusalem church apostasy? So what is 1 Nephi 13 all about?

---Great and abominable church established

---Intentional corruption of the scriptures

---Slaughter of the saints

---Perversion of the right way of the Lord

---Restoration of the gospel

---Restoration of lost gospel knowledge by means of the Nephite writings

---Restoration of other lost records

Sounds like a Great Apostacy to me.

2. Doesn't mention the Nephite church apostasy? Yes, it does, and in excruciating detail.

Bernard

[Bernard Gui]

And, where does your church say some one like ME will spend eternity, even though I love God and my neighbor? Not with Heavenly Father?

With Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is also God.

That's reserved for those baptized into YOUR church, who have jumped through all the LDS commandment and ordinance hoops (and I say that meaning no disrespect).

One can take this to mean disrespect.

I may love God and my neighbor as I should, but your religion would deny me a place with Heavely Father, because I'm not worthy without being baptized by the "proper authority." I'm sorry, Silver Girl, but that's not the gospel I read about in the NT. Your gospel is quite different. And, according to the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:6-9), a different gospel is a false gospel.

Then you expect God to recognize baptisms performed by improper authority?

Or no authority at all?

Bernard

[Jersey Girl]

Hello Bob Betts,

Don't really know who you are, but I'll take a shot at replying to your concerns. Here is where I think you go wrong. This is how you present the portion of PMG in your opening post.

From Preach My Gospel

"After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrines were corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost."

You have essentially extracted one sentence in an entire paragraph, ignoring the explanation that is given in the text you chose to present. Here is what it would have looked like had you chosen to include the correlation between the Apostles death and the impact of such on the church.

"After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrines were corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost."

As I see it, the above relates to the organization and functioning of the early church and the changes that occured when those who maintained the stewardship of the church had died. That the organization deteriorated, doctrines corrupted, priesthood (and everything that implies) taken from the earth does in no way inhibit the ministering to souls.

How could you possibly make that assumption?

If say, the Southern Baptist Convention ceases to exist, does that imply to you that souls cannot be ministered to and drawn to God? Does the lack of "conferring of the gift of the Holy Ghost" by SBC Deacons disable the Holy Ghost from moving in the lives of people?

Do you see? You are attempting to make a connection between the organization and functioning of a church and it's doctrines...and ministering to and healing of souls.

What the people on this thread are telling you is that you are making faulty connections and I'd have to say, that they are correct in that regard.

Jersey Girl

[Bernard Gui]

K this is simple. It takes 12 apostles and a prophet at the head to make the church.There were more than 12 Apostles at a time in the NT. Starting with the 11 Apostles, Matthias took Judas' place (Acts 1:24); other Apostles were Barnabas & Paul (Acts 14:4, 14), Adronicus & Junia (Rom. 16:7), Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25), Timothy & Silas (1 Thess. 2:6).

You cannot make this claim, because the apostolic record is incomplete and does not document the

deaths or ministries of many of the original 12. Citing this as evidence actually gives strength to the

LDS position that the apostleship should be perpetuated in order for the church to function. If not,

there was no need to call Barnabas et al.

The Apostles didn't all die at once. Are you telling me that as the Apostles were martyred, and when the number of them got down to eleven or less, then their priesthood authority could no longer be exercized?

Well, that would be the definition of the Great Apostasy, wouldn't it? Eventually the quorum dwindled

down to 0, unless, of course, you believe John remained in some form. Do you? Or perhaps you believe

the Roman church retains the apostolic authority? Seems like you lose either way.

Not until you reconcile the LDS scriptural fact that John and the Nephites DID have the power and keys of Christ's ministry, contradicting the claim that the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth.

That's been explained to you numerous times in numerous ways. That you don't accept the answers

should not give heartburn to the faithful.

Bernard

[Anijen]

Bernard your posts hit the target but I anticipate Bob's reply;

ahem, but your arrows are shooting at a different target that I am shooting at... (we believe a different Christ)

[Bernard Gui]

Bernard your posts hit the target but I anticipate Bob's reply;

ahem, but your arrows are shooting at a different target that I am shooting at... (we believe a different Christ)

Thank you. That's the problem when the target keep shifting around, isn't it?

Bernard

[Tsuzuki]

Off topic?

About as off topic as Joseph Smith's Jupiter talisman. I would just be showing people how to make their own.

Many in the Evangelical community (which would be yours, I think) like to play up the Mormon/Mason/occult connections as if they somehow discredit Mormonism. Personally, I see it as a positive thing that actually adds to its credibility, and if I were post at your board that's what I would focus on.

So, what do you say? Can I teach your people how to practice black magic?

[structurecop]

So, what do you say? Can I teach your people how to practice black magic?

I heard most of the Concerned Christians were already practicing alchemists.