Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[Bob Betts]

So what other conclusion can be made. Bob is clearly more superior than the lowley pondsum merman type.

If I think I'm right and you're wrong, that neither makes me superior, nor you the lowley pondsum merman type. . . does it? Aren't you taking this a bit personal.

It couldnt possibly be him in the error when trying to understand doctrine that he doesnt not believe in.

Based on the biblical doctrine I DO believe in, is it completely outside of the realm of possibility that you ARE wrong? Regardless. You need not accuse me of feeling superior, or viewing you as inferior.

He has not studied to find the answer his only motivation is to bring up what may look like a possible contradiction. At any rate Bob clearly believe we arent thinking.

No, but I clearly believe your aren't seeing or hearing. But, then, you clearly see me in a similar way. I'm not offended. I've taken a lot of offensive hits, here. But, I get over it almost immediately.

Or course we clearly thing that he isnt thinking, So witch one is it???

Eternity will tell. I gotta tell ya though, I'm entirely confident. But, that doesn't mean I feel superior to any soul. I don't. I pray for LDS on a regular basis. I tell you the truth as I understand it. I respect you, no matter how wrong I think you are. When I don't show you respect, you let me know about it. Please.

Thank you.

[Bob Betts]

The facts are is that there is no evidence that John or the Three Nephites ordained anyone to the Priesthood or used that Priesthood to baptize or confirm the Holy Ghost on anyone during the apostasy period. So effectively, the priesthood was taken from the people on the earth because they could not receive the blessings from it.

When Moroni was alone and wandering around, there is no indication that Moroni went around and baptized anyone or ordained anyone to the priesthood. Those that came in contact with him had a priesthood holder in their mist, but they apparently did not receive the blessings as a result.

So unless Mr Betts can show examples of these 4 translated beings ordaining people to the priesthood and baptizing people and giving these baptizing people the authority to baptize, ect, then during the apostasy period, we know that not one mortal was baptized in the proper authority, not one mortal person was ordained to the Aaronic and Melchezdek priesthood. Then the LDS position is sustained and a need for a restoration to occur that would allow mortal people to be ordained and receive the ordinances.

So Mr Betts, where are your examples throughout the apostasy period.

I've already addressed your main points in many previous posts. You've introduce nothing new, relevant to the question of my OP. Thank you for taking the time to address your comments and questions to me. I hope my previous answers suffice.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If I think I'm right and you're wrong, that neither makes me superior, nor you the lowley pondsum merman type. . . does it? Aren't you taking this a bit personal.

Based on the biblical doctrine I DO believe in, is it completely outside of the realm of possibility that you ARE wrong? Regardless. You need not accuse me of feeling superior, or viewing you as inferior.

No, but I clearly believe your aren't seeing or hearing. But, then, you clearly see me in a similar way. I'm not offended. I've taken a lot of offensive hits, here. But, I get over it almost immediately.

Eternity will tell. I gotta tell ya though, I'm entirely confident. But, that doesn't mean I feel superior to any soul. I don't. I pray for LDS on a regular basis. I tell you the truth as I understand it. I respect you, no matter how wrong I think you are. When I don't show you respect, you let me know about it. Please.

Thank you.

Bob, You will soon see that I claimed to have acted in bad form. I apologize again. I started over witch you will see in previous posts.

[Bob Betts]

Mr. Betts, I really don't want to side track you or put one more question in the pile, but I hope you can get to my question. It's been asked twice, once here, and the other is in another thread. If it is derailing to this thread, please just answer in the other thread. My earlier post in this thread links to it.

I got to and addressed your question two or three hours ago. Sorry it took so long.

[Bob Betts]

What are you "Concerned" about? What about removing the "beam from your own eye first" the EV church is in a tailspin. Gay's being ordained.

Those aren't evangelicals, Pa Pa. Those are liberals. Evangelicals are thoroughly opposed to homosexuality, and would never ordain them.

One of your "standard bearers" Charles Stanley refusing to give up his pupit after 40 years of preaching aganist divored ministers. Benny Hinn teaching that before the fall, women we designed to give birth from their side (Ribcage). Oral Roberts exstorting money by telling people God would kill him it he did not get 8,000,000 from his followers.

I've with you. I've been critical of a lot of what is on TBN, and those who preach false teachings and doctrines. But, I have no control or authority over any of them. They'll have to answer to God, just like you and me.

Read Hank's book..."Christianity in Crisis". Clean up your own house first. Charity begins at home. But then again anti-Mormonism pays well doesn't it.

It's too big of a house to clean up. I can only do my part in my OWN life and heart, and within MY sphere of influence. I definitely work at it.

But, guess what. Due to the internet and the fact that I live in a large densely LDS-populated city, LDS are very much an influence in my life and community. So, I can't just ignore them and their beliefs. You and they are my neighbors.

[Bob Betts]

I was going to reply the same thing but Papa you said it first

CC and all other anti Mormon crusades should clean up their own house first.

There are many on this board who are EV's that I respect because they are concerned without being deceitful, to name a few Rhino comes to mind, Chris Smith and others...

And, I've been deceitful HOW?

[Silver Girl]

Oh, Silver Girl, I don't view Mormons as stupid in the least. They are some of the most intelligent people in the world. But, deception is no respector of IQ's. Some of the most intelligent and educated people in the world are atheists or agnostics or gnostics or any of the non-Christian religions.

Sheep? Yes.

That's yet to be seen. Today is the day of salvation.

They absolutely do.

Ooooo, no. I'm superior to no one. Apart from Christ I am nothing. In Him I live and move and have my being. I am dust in the wind.

I know the Bible and I know God. I know Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Not in the slightest.

Not with the slightest bit of intention.

I have the purest of love for YOU and all Mormons. But, I also love the truth proclaimed in the Bible.

Thank you, but your sadness is wasted on me. I love God and my neighbor. I know I will be with Heavenly Father when I die, no matter what the mormon religion says otherwise. Because, I know the salvation preached by Christ and His Apostles. It's by trust. And I trust Christ for my salvation, implicitly. I am eternally secure.

If you died tonight, do you know where YOU'D go for eternity.

I've not said one impolite, disrespectful word, in the week I've been on this Board. I've strenuously disagreed, but not disrespected.

I'm neither scoring points nor playing games. I'm sharing my point of view, answering people's questions and comments, and being completely respectful (though I've been the recipient of a great deal of disrespect on this Board). I've observed this commonality among LDS: if you challenge their beliefs, and claim they are false, they take that as hate and judgment and disrespect. I intend nothing of the sort. I regret that you feel that way.

I am at peace with God, and I have nothing personal against any LDS. My life is good. My marriage is great. My relationships with my kids and grandkids (and one on the way) are fantastic. And, best of all, Christ is my Savior. It doesn't get any better than this. No need to feel sad for me, Silver Girl. But thank you anyway.

I am SO glad you have peace and happiness in your life, Bob... It is very comforting to have the power of the Atonement in our lives isn't it?? Can you believe that I have peace and happiness in my life too, even though I am merely a Mormon?? You see me as a lost and deluded individual, completely cut off from Christ... I do not see myself as a deluded individual at all... I am a very happy Christian, and SO thankful for the relationship I have with the Savior... You asked me if I died tonight, do I know where I would spend Eternity... Why, yes, I do, Bob... I would spend Eternity in the arms of my loving Savior, Jesus Christ... Who is merciful and loving to all His Father's children... Even the Mormon ones...

[Lachoneus]

This issue isn't really germane to my OP question.

But, having read your post, I get the impression that I'm either being told that "transfigured" is the wrong word in 3 Nephi 28:15 & 17, and SHOULD be translated, OR they were transfigured AND translated, though the text neither says, nor implies translation.

Am I close?

This is very germane. You have proposed an interpretation of certain LDS writings. Unfortunately, you seem to be having difficulty understanding whether 3 Nephi 28 speaks of transfiguration, translation or both. If you cannot address this simple matter, why should we pay any attention to your other interpretations of these writings?

The quotes I posted explained that the Three Nephites were transfigured when they were caught up and were also translated so that they would remain to accomplish various missions until the judgment day of Christ. 3 Nephi 28:39 clearly describes translation, not transfiguration.

Are you close? No, your interpretation is quite erroneous.

[NRA]

It's too big of a house to clean up. I can only do my part in my OWN life and heart, and within MY sphere of influence. I definitely work at it.

--You WORK at it? If an LDS made a statement like that, the typical anti-LDS Evan would scream "You have works-based righteousness! For REAL Christians, it's GOD working IN us--not anything WE do, lest any should boast!"

[NRA]

And, I've been deceitful HOW?

---Have you announced to the folks here that you are convinced, beyond any doubt, that LDS and their buildings are surrounded by an evil spirit that influences people to believe that LDS teachings are legit? (If my paraphrase of your position is inaccurate, feel free to correct it)

[Bernard Gui]

According to Preach My Gospel:

"After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrines were corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost."

1. It is true that after the death of Jesus, the apostles were persecuted and killed. LDS believe that John

was allowed to remain on earth until the return of the Lord because he made that request. I am not familiar with how the rest of the Christian world interprets the exchange between Jesus, Peter, and John.

2. According to LDS doctrine, the presiding keys of the priesthood (the authority to ordain other

men to the priesthood and thus perpetuate the organization of the church), are held by the president of the church. LDS believe that Peter was the president of the early church. In the absence of the president, the keys are held collectively by the quorum of 12. A majority of that quorum is required to ordain a new president, according to LDS doctrine and practice.

3. With the loss of the president, Peter, and the majority of the quorum, the presiding keys no longer

existed on the earth. Nothing in LDS doctrine can be interpreted to say John became the president of the church or that he held the presiding keys or functioned in any way to perpetuate the church organization as part of his ministry after his translation.

4. It is true that over time doctrines were corrupted and unauthorized. Evidence is the many councils called

to make corrections and define orthodoxy and the so-called Protestant Reformation. There is no single Christian doctrine concerning baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost. There is no Christian on

earth who speaks with authority for Christ (other than the Pope whose authority is not recognized by many Christians) to resolve this issue. Hence the need for a restoration of the keys, which was done by Peter, James, and John.

But, according to D&C 7:1-3:

"1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired."

So, this is one Apostle that never died, carrying priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, with permission to NEVER taste death, with power OVER death, and the ability to bring souls to Christ, and prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people, until Christ returns.

1. This scripture does not say that John replaced or succeeded Peter as president of the church.

2. It would be contrary to the order and nature of the priesthood for a translated being to preside over the earthly church. John would become a "ministering angel" not a "presiding angel."

3. John's post-translation ministry has not been documented; therefore, one can only speculate what

he has been doing or what influence he may have had.

Then there are the three Nephites, asking for and receiving the same things that John asked for and received, according to 3 Nephi 28:

"4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand."

And, after a brief transfiguration experience, about which they were commanded not to speak, their work began. According to 3 Nephi 28:18 they were doing what John was doing, as priesthood holders with the keys to the kingdom, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost."

1. Yes, the 3 Nephite disciples were granted the same wish as John.

2. Yes, they ministered to the Nephite church in the way described in 3 Nephi.

3. The 12 Nephite disciples (specially ordained to lead the Nephite church, but never called apostles)

are explicitly described as subservient to the 12 Jerusalem apostles.

4. It is a gross understatement to dismiss their encounter with the divine as a "brief transfiguration

experience."

5. Incidently, contrary to some who claim the Book of Mormon does not teach deification, 3 Nephi 28:10

explicitly declares the future deification of the 3 Nephite disciples.

Bernard

[Anijen]

1. It is true that after the death of Jesus, the aposles were persecuted and killed. LDS believe that John

was allowed to remain on earth until the return of the Lord because he made that request. I am not familiar with how the rest of the Christian world interprets the exchange between Jesus, Peter, and John.

2. According to LDS doctrine, the presiding keys of the priesthood (the authority to ordain other

men to the priesthood and thus perpetuate the organization of the church), are held by the president of the church. LDS believe that Peter was the president of the early church. In the absence of the president, the keys are held collectively by the quorum of 12. A majority of that quorum is required to ordain a new president, according to LDS doctrine and practice.

3. With the loss of the president, Peter, and the majority of the quorum, the presiding keys no longer

existed on the earth. Nothing in LDS doctrine can be interpreted to say John became the president of the church or that he held the presiding keys or functioned in any way to perpetuate the church organization as part of his ministry after his translation.

4. It is true that over time doctrines were corrupted and unauthorized. Evidence is the many councils called

to make corrections and define orthodoxy and the so-called Protestant Reformation. There is no single Christian doctrine concerning baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost. There is no Christian on

earth who speaks with authority for Christ (other than the Pope whose authority is not recognized by many Christians) to resolve this issue.

1. This scripture does not say that John replaced or succeeded Peter as president of the church.

2. It would be contrary to the order and nature of the priesthood for a translated being to preside over the earthly church. John would become a "ministering angel" not a "presiding angel."

3. John's post-translation ministry has not been documented; therefore, one can only speculate what

he has been doing or what influence he may have had.

1. Yes, the 3 Nephite disciples were granted the same wish as John.

2. Yes, they ministered to the Nephite church in the way described in 3 Nephi.

3. The 12 Nephite disciples (specially ordained to lead the Nephite church, but never called apostles)

are explicitly described as subservient to the 12 Jerusalem apostles.

4. It is a gross understatement to dismiss their encounter with the divine as a "brief transfiguration

experience."

5. Incidently, contrary to some who claim the Book of Mormon does not teach deification, 3 Nephi 28:10

explicitly declares the future deification of the 3 Nephite disciples.

Bernard

Bernard,

Very astute reply and one that should be convincing even to Bob. As I read your post it just reaffirmed to me how awesome the Savior is he sets up his church in Jerusalem, then does it likewise in America. But he knows where the keys and authority belongs too so it strengthens the concept rather than weaken it as Bob wants it to. Thanks again

Anijen.

[Zeta-Flux]

No. It was the four immortal ones who were said to hold the power and keys of Christ's ministry, and I've not read in the BoM (post 3 Nephi 28) that they conferred that power, authority or keys on anyone else. Only that they used them for the salvation, baptism and HG receipt of others.

Dear Bob,

Thanks for your reply. Let me make sure I understand your answer. I read you as saying that if "Preach My Gospel" had clarified that it was talking only about *mortal* priesthood holders on the earth, then you would see no contradiction. Is that right?

If so, I would recommend to you that perhaps the manual could have been a bit more clear. But, on the other hand, there are always "special cases" that are not always appropriate to bring to the attention of investigators of the gospel. (Algebra->calculus->differential geometry, and all that)

[Bernard Gui]

Further, in verse 23, it is confirmed that the three priesthood-holding Nephites were busy building up the church:

"And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the gospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of that generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus."

The dates at the bottom of these pages is A.D. 34-35.

1. Yes, they functioned in their callings and ministry to that Nephite generation, but one cannot limit this

to a 2 year period, if that is what you were thinking.

Again, following a time when the Jews and Gentiles shall know them not, then

"29 it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them."

They will do great and Marvelous works, even among the Gentiles (vs. 30-32). And, anyone who doesn't hearken unto their words, Christ will not receive at the last day (vs. 34-35).

1. There is no timeline for the prophesied ministry of the 3 Nephites, after the present generation had

passed away. The works they do shall be done before the second coming of the Lord. (verse 31)

2. It is not correct to say the Jews and Gentiles shall know them not. The scripture says that they will

not recognize the 3 Nephites. Whatever works they shall do will be done before the judgement day

(verse 32).

3. From verse 33 on, Mormon shifts his attention from the 3 disciples to consider parenthetically the ministry of Jesus and all those he has chosen and sent, which I interpret as any of the 12 Jerusalem apostles or 12 Nephite disciples and any other authorized apostle or prophet. In verse 36 he resumes his

discussion of the ministry of the 3 Nephites.

4. The correct statement would be, "anyone who doesn't hearken unto the words of Jesus or the words

of those he has chosen and sent." This is a broader view of the authority of Jesus and his chosen ones

and the responsibility of those who have rejected them, not just limited to the words of the 3 Nephites.

This is totally consistent with LDS doctrine and what is taught in the disputed section of PMG.

Now, in the land of Zarahemla, (Mormon 1:13) the beloved disciples were taken away because "wickedness did prevail," and their work "did cease because of the iniquity of the people." The date at the bottom of the page is A.D. 322. So, up until this date, they were still ministering.

OK.

In the final BoM account of those "disciples of Jesus," Mormon and Moroni were ministered to by them:

Mormon 8:10 And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth.

11 But behold, my father and I have seen them, and they have ministered unto us."

The date at the bottom of the page is A.D. 401. So, up until this date, they were still ministering.

OK. However, one would have to agree that the scope and effectiveness of their ministry had been continuously

diminished because of the unbelief of the Nephites who were in the throes of their own Great Apostacy.

In light of the above Mormon scriptures, you have four priesthood holders bringing souls to Christ until He shall return, uniting people to the church who believed their preaching, and baptizing them in both water and the Holy Ghost, with known visitations of them as late as 401 A.D., exercizing their ministerial authority.

1. It is not known what John was doing, because there is no record of his ministry, like Mormon had made

of the 3 Nephites. I look forward to the day when a full account is given of all 4.

2. The ministry of the 3 Nephites diminished continually over many years as the Nephite society descended

into chaos. At the end, only 2 Nephites received of their ministrations.

3. Their works will conclude at the day of judgement. There's still much to be done. {EDIT}

So, how can Preach My Gospel claim that, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth"? That's not the story I'm getting from the LDS scriptures.

1. Neither John nor the 3 Nephites exercised {EDIT} functioning keys of presidency after the respective apostacies. The church

could not and did not continue to function properly because they did not confer these keys on any successors. They had no successors because they were translated beings, and translated beings do not preside over the earthly church.

2. The restoration of the presiding keys to Joseph Smith by Peter, James, and John is totally consistent with the scriptures and the PMG quote that

you are disputing.

3. The story you are not getting (which you have made obvious) is that there is a difference between the ministry of these 4 disciples and what they were actually authorized to do, which they did magnificently, and what you think they should have done. This is your problem, not the scriptures' nor PMG's.

Bernard

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

1. Yes, they functioned in their callings and ministry to that Nephite generation, but one cannot limit this

to a 2 year period, if that is what you were thinking.

1. There is no timeline for the prophesied ministry of the 3 Nephites, after the present generation had

passed away. The works they do shall be done before the second coming of the Lord. (verse 31)

2. It is not correct to say the Jews and Gentiles shall know them not. The scripture says that they will

not recognize the 3 Nephites. Whatever works they shall do will be done before the judgement day

(verse 32).

3. From verse 33 on, Mormon shifts his attention from the 3 disciples to consider parenthetically the ministry of Jesus and all those he has chosen and sent, which I interpret as any of the 12 Jerusalem apostles or 12 Nephite disciples and any other authorized apostle or prophet. In verse 36 he resumes his

discussion of the ministry of the 3 Nephites.

4. The correct statement would be, "anyone who doesn't hearken unto the words of Jesus or the words

of those he has chosen and sent." This is a broader view of the authority of Jesus and his chosen ones

and the responsibility of those who have rejected them, not just limited to the words of the 3 Nephites.

This is totally consistent with LDS doctrine and what is taught in the disputed section of PMG.

OK.

OK. However, one would have to agree that the scope and effectiveness of their ministry had been continuously

diminished because of the unbelief of the Nephites who were in the throes of their own Great Apostacy.

1. It is not known what John was doing, because there is no record of his ministry, like Mormon had made

of the 3 Nephites. I look forward to the day when a full account is given of all 4.

2. The ministry of the 3 Nephites diminished continually over many years as the Nephite society descended

into chaos. At the end, only 2 Nephites received of their ministrations.

1. Neither John nor the 3 Nephites held active or functioning keys of presidency, therefore the church

could not and did not continue to function properly because they did not confer these keys on any successors. They had no successors because they were translated beings, and translated beings do not preside over the earthly church.

2. The restoration of the presiding keys to Joseph Smith by Peter, James, and John is totally consistent with the scriptures and the PMG quote that

you are disputing.

3. The story you are not getting (which you have made obvious) is that there is a difference between the ministry of these 4 disciples and what they were actually authorized to do, which they did magnificently, and what you think[/] they should have done. This is your problem, not the scriptures' nor PMG's.

Bernard

This is pretty much a summerisation of what has been said. This has been said better than I.

[PacMan]

Bob Betts,

Then, are you telling me that before all the Apostles were dead, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from (or OFF) the earth?

Nice try. I am saying that since John (at least until the time of Joseph Smith) had not died, someone on the earth had them. They were not OFF the earth, but taken (or hid) FROM it.

Yet, Christ promised the four that they would use them, while the world shall stand, when He granted them the power and keys of His ministry.

Oh, really? And I assume he also left with them detailed instructions of what to do when? I’m really, very interested in seeing this document.

Again, considering John restored the keys to Joseph Smith, I very much consider this as “having used them.”

May I also emphasize the importance of “keys,” vs. “key.” There is no reason to believe that using one of these metaphoric keys is to necessitate the use of them all. Your confounding terms, brother.

Precisely. Which means the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were NOT taken from (or OFF) the earth.

If you’re going to quote us, then be honest about it. This “from (or OFF),” is turning into a blatant illustration of disingenuousness. They are explicitly different terms, no matter how much to conflate them and twist them through purposeful proof-text.

More precisely, that because they were out there, the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were NOT taken from (or OFF) the earth. Thus, the LDS manuals contradict the alleged facts surrounding the priesthood activities of the four, who were given power and the keys of Christ's ministry, until His return (D&C 7:7).

NO! Because “from” and “OFF” are completely diverse! They are distinctly different! You can’t mash two words together for your presumptive thesis and declare it so…you’re wrong! Fundamentally, from a linguistic standpoint, your interpretation is wrong. You’ve misquoted the manual, and unfairly applied a false test to it. Your analysis is simply, dead, wrong…and that has NOTHING to do with religion.

According to Christ's callings on the four (who were members and leaders), and your church's belief that they're around today, they never distanced themselves from the church, and they always held the keys. Since those four didn't die, and they held and used the priesthood keys and priesthood authority, then the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were still on the earth.

And this is an amazing revelation….why? The church is an organization, and via the apostasy, it collapsed. It was no more…nada, nill, zippo (as far as our records can tell). That doesn’t mean that John could stay alive by his lonesome! Let us remember, that the church is the body of Christ in all its members. Take away the members except the big toe, and all you’ve got is a big toe, yet a big toe doth a body not make.

The part that, 1) though Christ gave the power and keys of His ministry to be used until His return, and

And they can hold it and use it, again and again, in isolated instances. There’s was not to grow the church but to minister to isolated groups.

2) though they were using that power and those keys to bring souls to Christ, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost," which they were promised by Christ that they would do until His return,

So? And they did those for multiple, hundreds of years before the Nephites were wiped out. What’s the big deal?

and 3) though they were granted that they would "minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them," nevertheless, you still think the manual is right, that priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority WERE taken from the earth?

What’s VERY evident is your ability to read and synthesize information. Thanks to your proof-text of verse 29, that this ministry unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, etc., you’ve befuddled that it was “when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom.” What in the world gives you the notion that you can put any sort of start/stop or otherwise finite timelimit on it? Whether they did, do, or have yet gone “unto all nations,” is expressly UNDEFINED!

NICE PROOF-TEXT!! It says something about your integrity, and your academics.

And per D&C 7:3, I must have missed…when did the Lord say that the prophesying before nations, kindreds, tongues, etc., would be done, completed, or started?

Or are you just reading in your definitions, again?

The BoM never states that the church was unestablished, to begin with. 3 Nephi 28:18, 23 says that in A.D. 34-35, they were "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost." When did the church ever cease to be established, according to the BoM?

Are you seriously an amateur? Once the righteous were KILLED OFF, that put a pretty abrupt end to the church! Recall (or not, since you pick and choose from the BoM rather than actually read it), that Moroni was that last of the Nephites…whom the Lamanites had murdered off.

And, as late as A.D. 401 in the (Mormon 8:10-11), they were still ministering. There is no mention, up to this point, that there was an apostasy, or that their power, priesthood keys and authority had been taken from them, or that Christ had withdrawn His promise that they would use them while the earth shall stand, unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

Ahhh…yes. They were ministering to a CHURCH that had not been killed off. Right. Well use your thinker cap…if that apostasy isn’t evident at this point, then deductive logic tells us…it hadn’t happened yet. And about Christ withdrawing His promise (which you completely and dishonestly proof-text…Moroni said explicitly that it’d be done when the “Lord seeth fit.”), the more important question is…did it need to be fulfilled then? Who are you to say it did?

But, in light of your scriptures, I see no hint that their priesthood power, keys and authority were taken from (or OFF) the earth.

Then you’re blind. Fact of the matter is that Moroni refused to even give the 3 Nephites’ names.

TAKE A LOOK:

3 Nephi 28: 25

“Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.”

WHAT? AREN’T THEY SUPPOSED TO BE HID OFF THE WORLD..ALONG WITH THE PRIESTHOOD? OR WAS THE PRIESTHOOD HID FROM THE WORLD…ALONG WITH THE 4?

I would think…

And we would be better for it if you did.

PacMan

[John D the First]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I do find it interesting because it gives me a window into the mind of an evangelical critic of the church. Semantics do matter to them. Semantics is all that is needed to turn what to Muslims and Jews are obviously three Gods into one God. But of course they are still three, while being one. I don't think it is invalidâ??God is three in one sense, and one in another.

So the trinity establishes that a proposition can be true in one sense but not necessarily in every sense. So it is with the quoted statement about the apostasy. It is true in the sense that there was no assembly of believers being lead by one with all the priesthood keys, practicing the ordinances of Gospel within the geographic region that had access to the New Testament Dispensation after the death of the Apostles.

Were there individuals on earth with keys following this? Perhaps. So in that sense, maybe, the statement could be qualified. Just like any beginning course, one does not learn every exception to a generally true proposition at once.

The rhetorical technique being used is invalid. It insists that the LDS adhere to a strange propositional absolutism would make it impossible to make any proposition without hiring a lawyer to outline all the loop-holes. It assumes that if a proposition is not true in every sense, it must not be true. So, according to this assumption, if God is not one in every sense, He must not be one at all. If he is not three in every sense, He must therefore not be three.

Best,

Jd1

[PacMan]

And, I've been deceitful HOW?

Because you dishonestly proof-text the scriptures and church manuals.

<<You've yet to quote 3 Nephi 28:29 which expressly indicates that the Lord did NOT promise them anything in this verse, despite how many times you've dishonestly misquoted it>>

<<And your continuance to mis-quote the manual that the priesthood was taken OFF the earth, when it was taken FROM the earth; for which you should really take into account 3 Nephi 28:25 which expressly shows that the 3 Nephites were to be HID FROM the earth; in fact, the word "OFF" is your complete invention>>

That's to say nothing of the feeble logical strands you've put together to support sweeping notions of incoherence. You either did it by accident, or because you're dishonest, incapable, or both.

<<Such as your comment that the BoM shows no apostasy, using as proof the fact that as late as 401 AD they're still practicing religion....although that's before the righteous were killed off completely (a small fact you seemed to miss); genocide does wonders to organizations of those populations>>

PacMan

[Bob Betts]

Please tell us from Our cannon that what you stated above means that they will have to be preaching for the past 1500 years. The last question you answerd of mine was, "no". That was in responce to me asking you if Christ had returned for his 2nd comming. Is the earth passed away yet? Of course not. So that mean the promise is fullfilled and still being fullfilled. IT didnt mean that they had to use the priesthood say, in 700 AD.

Doesn't matter whether there were breaks or not. What matters is what I've stated all along: because they were always here, holding the power and keys of Christ's ministry, then the LDS manual claim that the priesthood authority and keys were taken from the earth, being an apostasy, is a contradiction.

For more perspective on this see Matt24. Particularly verse 34

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Some speculate that Jesus was supposed to return before that generation meaning, the ones that lived when Christ was on the earth, should not pass away until the things he spoke of should happen. Now obviously that generation passed away, and those things didnt happen. So from this we can learn that Christ is talking about the generation in witch these things should come to pass, they shall not pass until these things in witch Christ talked about shall happen.

IT is the same things here. It doesnt matter when the 4 fullfilled thier duty. You cannot come to any arguemnet from scriptures saying that the 4 had been using thier priesthood during the apostacy.

Yes, I can come to that conclusion based on the LDS scriptures, and those scriptures preclude an apostasy.

We're not on the same page, you and me. So, I'll try again. "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." Since John and three Nephites never died and held the power and keys of Christ's ministry "while the earth shall stand," then the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority could not have been taken from the earth. It's a contradiction. The scriptures which describe John and the Nephites holding what was supposed to have been taken from the earth, proves a contradiction. If you believe those scriptures about John and the Nephites, then the you can't believe the apostasy happened, because they held the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, thus they were NOT taken from the earth. If you insist on sticking to the claim that a complete apostasy of authority happened after the death of the Apostle, then you can't believe D&C 7 and 3 Nephi 28.

In other words, both can't be true. One or the other is true (allegedly), but since the two contradict each other, they both can't BE.

In other words, just becuase they had it doesnt mean they used it. Do you not see this?

No. Again, it doesn't matter if they didn't always use "it" at times, they still had "it." Therefore, "it" never was taken from the earth.

If so can you kindley tell us from scripture that they were using it during that apostacy and that they remained on the earth.

1) Again, I'm telling you that there was NO apostasy. 2) The scriptures which indicate the four were called to use their power and priesthood authority and keys are: 3 Nephi 28:9 "and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand." "2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee. 3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people."

The scripture Lightbearer quoted said that becuase of wickedness the 3 were taken away.

But, only from the land where the wickedness was, not from the earth/world. Their calling was to remain in the world and go "unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people," until Christ's return.

If the principle is the same, then wickedness would drive them away from the world.

Not according to the scriptures I've quoted. Only from the land where the wickedness was.

Thank you for the reply and kind discussion.

Your very welcome.

[Bob Betts]

The part that, 1) though Christ gave the power and keys of His ministry to be used until His return, and 2) though they were using that power and those keys to bring souls to Christ, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost," which they were promised by Christ that they would do until His return, and 3) though they were granted that they would "minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them," nevertheless, you still think the manual is right, that priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority WERE taken from the earth?

Bob, Why do you continue to ignore chronology and context? This is getting to be rather silly. I think you are being intentionally obtuse.

Not intentionally.

3 Nephi 28:29 says, "they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them."

Bob, why do you continue to leave off the first 15 words of this verse? I have asked this of you before, but as of yet you have skipped over it. You have quoted 3 Nephi 28:29 numerous times in this thread, but you have not yet quoted it in its entirety. Why? Please quote the first 15 words and then give us your interpretation.

Regards,

T-Shirt

I guess I don't see that they make a big enough difference to matter.

"29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the ascattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them."

(You may have meant the first 18 words.) As I said before, it doesn't matter if there were breaks in their callings. Their callings remain. To do their callings, they had the power and priesthood keys and authority of Christ's ministry, which means the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were NOT taken from the earth. Therein lies the contradiction.

[Hammer]

If I think I'm right and you're wrong, that neither makes me superior, nor you the lowley pondsum merman type. . . does it? Aren't you taking this a bit personal.

Based on the biblical doctrine I DO believe in, is it completely outside of the realm of possibility that you ARE wrong? Regardless. You need not accuse me of feeling superior, or viewing you as inferior.

No, but I clearly believe your aren't seeing or hearing. But, then, you clearly see me in a similar way. I'm not offended. I've taken a lot of offensive hits, here. But, I get over it almost immediately.

Eternity will tell. I gotta tell ya though, I'm entirely confident. But, that doesn't mean I feel superior to any soul. I don't. I pray for LDS on a regular basis. I tell you the truth as I understand it. I respect you, no matter how wrong I think you are. When I don't show you respect, you let me know about it. Please.

Thank you.

Everyone should be completely confident. "In My House there are many mansions. I go to prepare a place for you."

The thing is-- what will your place look like in comparison to those whom have received more and kept all the covenants possible? In any case, you will be happy. We all will.

[Paul Ray]

To do their callings, they had the power and priesthood keys and authority of Christ's ministry, which means the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were NOT taken from the earth. Therein lies the contradiction.

Who had the keys and authority?

How do you know they had them?

How do you know they weren't taken from them and given to other people?

If they still have the keys, how did they transfer them to you?

How did you get our Lord's authority, and in what way... and to what extent... did you get it?

[consiglieri]

I guess Mr. Betts does not want to address the point I made regarding the lack of a quorum.

Is it because I made the point, and I am beneath Mr. Betts' notice; or is it because it puts a stick of dynamite in his argument?

Bernard Gui made a similar point, and made it better, so I eagerly await Mr. Betts' response to Bernard's post.

That is, if he isn't too busy crying contradiction to answer it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I guess Mr. Betts does not want to address the point I made regarding the lack of a quorum.

Is it because I made the point, and I am beneath Mr. Betts' notice; or is it because it puts a stick of dynamite in his argument?

Bernard Gui made a similar point, and made it better, so I eagerly await Mr. Betts' response to Bernard's post.

That is, if he isn't too busy crying contradiction to answer it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

He will soon get to my post wich I think you started the whole idea to use the quorum of the 12. He should be resonding soon to that. Oh well we will see.

He wont respond to you becuase, well, you know, Your exactly the type of mormon he does not want on this board. Hehe.

[Bob Betts]

Bob

I thought I was quite clear in this. Does the world still stand? Yes!!!! It does. That doesnt mean that the 3 nephites had to with, no other options be preaching for the past 1500 years and baptizing.

If you'll recall, John and the three Nephites requested the desire of their heart which was to remain in the world and bring souls to Christ. They weren't being forced. Christ granted them the desire of their hearts. It wasn't a matter that they had to, but that they really wanted to. They got what they desired. Why would Christ grant that desire, then take it away? It makes the most sense that they would use the power and authority, than to not. Plus the fact that there is not one word of mention in the BoM about an apostasy, that started during the time the your church claims, or anytime thereafter.

Regardless, my point is and always has been, since they had the power and authority of Christ's ministry, then it wasn't taken from the earth. Thus, the contradiction.

You cannot from scripture show that they have. How then can this be fullfilled. Well since the earth has not passed away, they are currently fullfilling this. For some reason you fail to understand this point.

But, your point is irrelevant to MY point. What you're admitting with your point is that the four had and have the power and priesthood authority on the earth. Therefore, the manual claim of an apostasy can't be true, because the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were NEVER taken from the earth

latter in the BoM it tells us that God took away the 3 nephites.

Why did God take them away?

He took them away from the land where the wickedness was, because of the wickedness. But, they remained in the world, on the earth, holding the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, which were never taken from the earth, making the LDS manual contradictory.

So if wickedness took them away what would bring them back?

Again, wickedness was the reason they were taken from the land where the wickedness was. But, they remained in the world, on the earth, ministering unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, holding the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, which were never taken from the earth, making the LDS manual contradictory.

Oppostion in all things, remember that.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Apperantly you feel in a literal interpretation of "while the world shall stand" That this means that the 3Nephites had no other option but to be preaching. This is not the case.

No, you're right, it was not the case. But, not for the reason YOU think. It was not the case because preaching WAS their option of choice. The four had gotten their wish. They WANTED to preach:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people. D&C 7:3

ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me. 3 Nephi 28:6

and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand. 3 Nephi 28:9

Other scripture points this out. becuase of wickedness they were taken away.

Again, they were only taken away from the land where the wickedness was. They still had their power and authority with them on the earth, making the LDS manual wrong, and the apostasy a false claim.