Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[Bob Betts]

I heard most of the Concerned Christians were already practicing alchemists.

You should have added a smiley face to alert people to the fact that you're kidding. Unless this is deliberate contention.

[Tanyan]

It's Sunday morning I want to go to church somewhere, where do I go ?, I get my telephone book and turn to the Churches section and I see the myriad of listing for Churches [Not to dismiss other non Christian Faiths] and which one do I choose ? , What if I choose wrong ? - Hell bound ?. Sad day in Sunday and beyond, .

[T-Shirt]

But, did you miss the fact that three Nephites WERE "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost." And, did you miss the fact that the three Nephites were allowed to keep doing this while the earth shall stand.

I must have missed it, can you show where this fact is mentioned?

We're not talking about a passive moving of the HG on people's lives. Numbers of people were being added to the church. They were being baptized in water and the HG, at the hands of the three Nephites.

Can you please point out where it is stated that these disciples continued to baptize and bring people to the Church, even after the Church was no longer on the earth?

By LDS standards, could they do these things without the power and keys of the priesthood?

You continue to make assumptions that are no where written in our scriptures. The baptizing that these men performed were done during a period of time, as clearly explained by Moroni, from the coming of Christ, until the people became too wicked.

No, I don't see, because that's not what I'm attempting to connect. But, what I hear YOU attempting to DISconnect, is the priesthood authority and keys from those four men, who clearly were operating with power and authority and keys, as defined by your church.

No one is arguing that these men did not hold the priesthood or priesthood keys. You, however claim to know precisely what these men were doing with those keys for 2000 years, even though those details are not given.

Again, from reading your scriptures, the faulty connection that I'm seeing is, four priesthood holders using their power and authority and keys, to do what your church claims didn't happen for 1,700 years, because that priesthood power and authority and keys were taken from the earth.

It makes no more sense to me now, then it did a week ago when I started this thread. There is no way to reconcile that "priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth," when four priesthood holders have been exercising power, authority and keys since 34 A.D. to the present.

Frankly, I am surprised that this thread is still going. You know very well that this is easily reconciled, but you refuse to acknowledge this fact.

I have no problem admitting that, if taken in the most literal, dogmatic way, Preach My Gospel is not worded in a way that is completely accurate. But, by the same token, for all intents and purposes, it is accurate. The message that it attempts to teach, is that there was an apostasy and that the Church of Christ was no longer found upon the earth and that no mortal man held proper priesthood authority to officiate in the Church. The fact that John and the three Nephites were still on the earth during the apostasy has no impact on and does not change this teaching. For the purpose of governing the Church of Jesus Christ, the priesthood was not on the earth. This is the message, and for this purpose, Preach My Gospel is sufficiently accurate. As has been stated repeatedly, you continue to strain at a gnat.

T-Shirt

[Paul Ray]

It's Sunday morning I want to go to church somewhere, where do I go ?, I get my telephone book and turn to the Churches section and I see the myriad of listing for Churches [Not to dismiss other non Christian Faiths] and which one do I choose ? , What if I choose wrong ? - Hell bound ?. Sad day in Sunday and beyond, .

You're not seriously asking Bob that question, are you, Tanyan?

I'm sure he'll be more than happy to tell you where you can go to find Jesus Christ.

Lo, here!

Lo, there!

Anywhere but where all them "Mormons" are going.

I think I just have to say this: I'm very impressed by the "wisdom" of some men.

Oh, and, uh, yeah, that is really a joke.

[Paul Ray]

Frankly, I am surprised that this thread is still going. You know very well that this is easily reconciled, but you refuse to acknowledge this fact.

T-Shirt,

Meet Bob Betts.

Bob Betts,

Meet T-Shirt.

I hope you'll both get acquainted.

[Hammer]

To Those Who GOD Has Entrusted This Sacred Right:

You have been, at one time or another, found worthy of the ordination of this great right....

Now you just think about this:

Your Father In Heaven has given you the right and the privelage to bring HIS children in to this world to give them the oppertunity to do everything that you were entitled...

1. Adam fell that men might be and men are that they might have JOY!.........

2. 2 Nephi 2:13

3. Abraham 3:21-28 the war in heaven is here on earth will you let him take another 1/3...in short Agency!

4. If you have not a body of flesh and bones you do not enter the Kindom of GOD!......

5. I N 1:1 through Moroni 10 is WHAT YOU SHOULD BE LIVING ! and if not you will sufer without YOUR FAMILY.....GODS FAMILY...we are all His chinldren...it is as you are called to this responcablity with the priesthood to get every one youu can to the highest Glory you can ...YOU HAVE BEEN ENTRUSTED!!! Do your part in the work to bring to pass life everlasting.......God does not just call anyone.......he called you and if you fail on any one of your duties as a AUTHORISED MINISTER of The LORD than you have failed to bring in even your own salvation...! the greatest of all commandments : Love the Lord thy God with all your heart......then when you are done here move on with what is been endorced in hymn 308 ...if you love someone with pure charity (THE PURE LOVE OF CHRIST) as charity is defined in Moroni 7:45-48 then you enter into the natural flow of the Atonement and bring not ony your selves in at the last day but your brothers and sisters to live with our GOD ,our Father....He loves you dont you know ....Look at what he has give you.......start with Gen. in your QUAD then find all 100000000000000000000000000000 of your gifts that ensure your return to him ...if you will but act upon your feelings of good...Again Moroni talks of what is ans is not good...

I m not the meadiator and i dont want to preach or condem....As your brother I only hope with faith to continue to love you ,..................

Elder S. H.

[Paul Ray]

To Those Who GOD Has Entrusted This Sacred Right:

...

I m not the mediator and i dont want to preach or condem....As your brother I only hope with faith to continue to love you ,..................

Elder S. H.

What's your point, Hammer?

I hope you'll hope with faith to continue to love all of us regardless of what we do or don't do.

Did you have another message to share with all of us, or was that it?

[Bob Betts]

Unfortunately, you are incorrect in both.

Good idea. Metatithemi means "1. in local sense, to transpose . . . 2. to change, alter . . ."

Now, if you want to use Enoch as your example, let's see what the Bible says. "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." That Enoch "was not" because "God took him" would seem to justify the sense of "translate" meaning "to transpose," or move from one place to another, if we assume that God "taking" Enoch implies a physical change of position.

The other place the translation of Enoch is mentioned is Hebrews 11:5. "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Here we see that the result of Enoch's translation was that "he should not see death." This justifies the sense of "translate" meaning "to change, alter." Enoch was changed so he would no longer be subject to death.

In addition, Heb 11:5 adds that "and [Enoch] was not found, because God translated him." This seems to justify the meaning that Enoch was translated in the sense of changing physical location.

From the above we see that "translate" means both to change physical location and to change or alter. Enoch experienced both of these meanings because he was "taken" by God and became no longer subject to death.

Unless you're telling me that "translate" and "transfigure" are synonyms, shouldn't we simply use the terms that the writers themselves used?

Now let's compare this to the description of what happened to the Three Nephites.

First, were they "taken" by God? Yes. "And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things." (3 Nephi 28:13) So, like Enoch, they were "taken" by God. The difference, of course, is that they had a mission on the earth and were quickly returned so that they could fulfill that mission.

Therefore, because they had a mission on earth and were quickly returned so that they could fulfill that mission, then they weren't really translated...yet.

Second, were they changed or altered so that they would not see death? Yes. "Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven." (3 Nephi 28:7) Thus we see that the description of what happened to the Three Nephites exactly matches the Biblical definition and usage of the term "translated."

Am I to understand that you are taking the fact that they were promised that they would never taste death, that the promise, itself, was the translation? Because it sounds to me like the translation (of being permanently taken up) was not to be until the end of the World.

As to the word "transfigured," what does the Bible say? "And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light." (Matthew 17:2) Similar statements are found in Mark 9:2 and Luke 9:29.

Was Christ "taken" by God? No. Not one word indicates that he was, at this time, "taken." Instead, Moses and Elijah came to him. Was Christ at this time made not subject to death? Of course not.

So, what can we conclude? Here is a brief summary:

Latter-day Saint scriptures speak of a unique class of beings, persons whom the Lord has "translated" or changed from a mortal state to one in which they are temporarily not subject to death, and in which they experience neither pain nor sorrow except for the sins of the world. Such beings appear to have much greater power than mortals. All translated beings will eventually experience physical death and resurrection (MD, p. 807-808). Translation is a necessary condition in special instances to further the work of the Lord.Translated beings are not resurrected beings, though all translated beings either have since been or yet will be resurrected or "changed in the twinkling of an eye" to a resurrected state (3 Ne. 28:. In effect, this last change is their death, and they therefore receive what amounts to an instantaneous death and resurrection. Resurrection is a step beyond translation, and persons translated prior to the resurrection of Christ were resurrected with him (cf. D&C 133:54-55); it is expected that those translated since Christ's resurrection will be resurrected at his second coming.During the period from Adam to Melchizedek, many faithful persons were translated. Enoch and the righteous residents of his city of Zion were translated not many years after Adam's death (Moses 7:18-21, 31, 63, 69; D&C 38:4; 45:11-14; 84:99-100; Gen. 5:22-24; Heb. 11:5). During the period from Enoch to Noah, it appears that faithful members of the Church were translated, for "the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion" (Moses 7:27).After the Flood, others were also translated. In his inspired rendition of the Bible, Joseph Smith tells of many who "were translated and taken up into heaven" (JST Gen. 14:32-34). Fewer translations apparently occurred in the New Testament era, though John the beloved (John 21:20-23; D&C 7) and the three Nephites were translated (3 Ne. 28).Translated beings are assigned special ministries, some to remain among mortals, as seems to be the case of John and the Three Nephites, or for other purposes, as in the case of Moses and Elijah, who were translated in order to appear with physical bodies hundreds of years later on the mount of transfiguration prior to the resurrection of Christ. Had they been spirits only, they could not have laid hands on the mortal Peter, James, and John (cf. D&C 129:3-. Why those of Enoch's city were translated, we are not specifically informed, although the Prophet Joseph Smith explained the role of translated beings thus: "Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead" (TPJS, p. 170).The scriptures do not define differences between transfiguration and translation, but it appears that transfiguration is more temporary, as in Matthew 17:1-9 and Moses 1:11, occurring primarily to permit one to behold spiritual things not possible in the mortal condition.

(Encyclopedia of Mormonism, p.1486)

I prefer the Greek definitions to the LDS definitions. I can count on the Greek. And, I've seen what the LDS church has done to the word "grace," to know that LDS definitions are made to fit LDS theology.

The disadvantage you have with attempting to define transfigure and translate from the BoM text above is, you don't have the meanings of the words in the alleged language, not known in any part of the world, called Reformed Egyptian. You either have to agree with the Greek definitions of those two words, or give up your defense.

(1) There is no language known as Reformed Egyptian and the Book of Mormon never mentions one. In Mormon 9:2, Mormon speaks of certain "characters" which the Nephites had altered and called "reformed Egyptian." "And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech."

So, they called it reformed Egyptian amongst themselves, but because the "r" isn't capitalized, then there's no language known as Reformed Egyptian . . . OK, you know what? I don't care if the "r" is capitalized or not. I don't care about any of this in light of the OP. It proves nothing against the OP. It's just another peripheral issue off the topic. It's been fun. But, I'll be addressing the topic instead.

(2) The Greek definitions might be interesting for New Testament usage, but I see no reason to think that persons from other countries are in any way bound by those definitions for their own usage of their own words to express similar concepts.

But, how would YOU and any other LDS know what those concepts are in reformed Egyptian? The best any of you can do is guess, even if there WAS such a language as reformed Egyptian.

OK, you know what? I don't care if the "r" is capitalized or not. I don't care about any of this in light of the OP. It proves nothing against the OP. It's just another peripheral issue off the topic. It's been fun. But, I'll be addressing the topic instead.

Second, the definitions of these terms don't change the point of my OP. There's a contradiction between the doctrine of a complete apostasy of authority, and the LDS scriptures which demonstrate that the power, and the priesthood keys and authority of Christ's ministry, were never (and aren't still, according to the LDS scriptures) taken from the earth.

As I have explained in another post, there is no contradiction.

Your explanation never adequately addressed the specific LDS scriptures that I addressed.

BTW, since Noah and his family (8 people) were the only righteous people in the entire world in their day, would you deny that an apostasy occurred?

Not a complete apostasy. Don't LDS believe that Noah had priesthood authority?

Also, before the coming of Christ, will there be an apostasy (2 Thess 2:3) or will there always be concerned Christians until he comes?

Yes, and yes. The apostasy won't be complete, and there will be concerned Messiahnic Jews.

[Paul Ray]

Not a complete apostasy. Don't LDS believe that Noah had priesthood authority?

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

Time out. Recess. There's another flag on this field.

I just realized we're not playing the same game, yet again.

Think this thought now, Bob:

When we (LDS) say there was a General Apostasy, and/or the one true Church fell into apostasy, we're not suggesting that all truth was taken from the Earth, and/or that there were no more true followers of Jesus Christ on the Earth.

"Apostasy" simply refers to the idea of falling away or becoming corrupt.

"General Apostasy" simply refers to an apostasy that affected everybody... to some extent.

Once upon a time there were many prophets and apostles of God walking this Earth.

... and then there weren't.

... until the restoration of the gospel to a modern prophet.

And I know, I know, I have heard it before.

Some people still don't think we need any more prophets and apostles.

Same old story. Different day.

Play ball.

[juliann]

I don't accept your interpretation that the authority and keys were hidden. Since the four were using them, which would mean that people's live were obviously affected by them, where were they "hid"? The fact that the manuals refer to the authority an keys were "taken from the earth," I am not led to conclude by that wording, that the authority and keys were still on the earth, but hid. I'm not buying it. "Taken from the earth" means they were no longer on the earth. The word "hid" is nowhere implied in the terminology.

Am I missing something or is this is as good as it gets from this guy. Why bother?

[captain-jack]

Mr. Betts, I know you are a busy man but missing my posts three times seems to give some indication to something. Either you truly are just missing my posts, and I will say not on purpose. Or you are blatantly ignoring them, and I'd hate for you to have the image of the latter.

So please, one last time, why is my post here not a good enough answer about the 3 Nephites being removed and asking for citation on where John was granted his desire and ministered.

[charity's child]

Am I missing something or is this is as good as it gets from this guy. Why bother?

I'm with you!

[Bob Betts]

Bob: "There was no apostasy of authority and keys, since four men held them, as I shown from LDS scriptures, through 11 pages."

And you have failed to show at any point during the apostasy period that these 4 ever ordained one person to the Priesthood or used the Priesthood to administer the ordiances like baptism and confirmation.

If they didn't do these things, does that mean that they didn't possess the power and keys of Christ's ministry that He gave them? Wouldn't it be awfully odd for Christ to give priesthood authority for the purpose of bringing souls to Christ, baptising them in water and the HG (3 Nephi 28:18 and 23), then they not use those keys? What would be the point? He promised them they would bring souls to Christ until His return. I know Mormonism believes in water and HG baptism after a person is brought to Christ. What makes you think they didn't use those keys?

So the fact that they held the priesthood makes no difference as the blessings of the priesthood where completely removed from people on the earth.

You cannot quote anything from the BoM that says anything like what you just said.

If you chose to make up your own version of the apostasy, so be it. But deal with what the LDS view is on the apostasy in its terms and not your terms.

I'm dealing with the words of 3 Nephi 28, D&C 7 and Mormon 8:10. What I read there doesn't say or hint at anything about a complete apostasy of priesthood authority or keys.

If I lived in a place where I was the only priesthood holder but was instructed not to use the priesthood to administer the ordinances or ordain others to the priesthood, then effectively the priesthood is taken from the people.

But, the four WERE granted permission to live on and use their priesthood authority, all over the world, until His return. There is no verse that says they were instructed not to use their priesthood. Only in Mormon 1, do we find that they were removed from the land of Zarahemla because of the wickedness of the people. But, the rest of the world was their mission field, according to Christ's calling on them. Do you think they stopped using their priesthood? Of course not. They desired to use it.

You will also note that when the Nephites became wicked, the 3 Nephites left them. WHere did they go?

The rest of the world was their mission field, according to Christ's calling on them.

How ofter do they even walk among mortal man?

How often is irrelevant. What's relevant is that they possessed the priesthood authority and keys. Therefore, there was no apostasy of authority; the priesthood authority and keys were NEVER taken from the earth. At least, not according to the BoM.

We don't know what their activities are but we do know that during the apostasy period, not one mortal person on the planet who claimed to be a christian or anyone else had the priesthood.

Wow, you must not have read my OP. I provided ample BoM and D&C scriptures to show what they were called to do, that they were doing it, where, and for how long. You should reread your scriptures.

Bob, you have lost this debate, stop the CPR, the mouth to mouth your not going to breath to life into this dead horse.

You have been answered multiple times, it is to the point of ad nauseam. Go over and read all the answers given to you. Or to make it short go to the brilliant post by Deborah #19 I will even link it for you here.

And, I'm still being questioned.

[Jersey Girl]

You want me to focus on the results or effect of the Apostle's deaths (which are stated after the sentence I highlighted), rather than on the catalyst or cause of the apostasy, which was the deaths of the Apostles. As it states, "WITH the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." What initiated the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority being taken from the earth? The deaths of the Apostles. Was the Apostle John dead? No. Were three others with the same desire and authority as John, to "bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand," dead? No. What did they start doing almost immediately, according to the testimony of Nephi? "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost." Could they do that without any priesthood power or keys?

By relying on what your scriptures say I'm not saying it makes sense. I'm saying it DOESN'T make sense because of the blatant contradiction. Four guys are going to use priesthood power and keys, during the same time when priesthood keys and authority were supposed to have been taken from the earth?

No, and no. But, did you miss the fact that three Nephites WERE "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost." And, did you miss the fact that the three Nephites were allowed to keep doing this while the earth shall stand. We're not talking about a passive moving of the HG on people's lives. Numbers of people were being added to the church. They were being baptized in water and the HG, at the hands of the three Nephites. By LDS standards, could they do these things without the power and keys of the priesthood?

No, I don't see, because that's not what I'm attempting to connect. But, what I hear YOU attempting to DISconnect, is the priesthood authority and keys from those four men, who clearly were operating with power and authority and keys, as defined by your church.

Again, from reading your scriptures, the faulty connection that I'm seeing is, four priesthood holders using their power and authority and keys, to do what your church claims didn't happen for 1,700 years, because that priesthood power and authority and keys were taken from the earth.

It makes no more sense to me now, then it did a week ago when I started this thread. There is no way to reconcile that "priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth," when four priesthood holders have been exercising power, authority and keys since 34 A.D. to the present.

Bob Betts,

What I attempted to do was to get you to read and focus on the material that you posted in context. I could well be off the mark in my interpretation/understanding of what they imply.

Do you see all the portions of your post that I bolded above? You, like many others whose thinking or positions are challenged by me on this board, mistake me for LDS. I am not now, nor have I ever been LDS. "My" scriptures are the Old and New Testament which I try to read for what they say. I encourage you to do the same when reading LDS scripture.

I may choose to return to this thread and address your post above. Meanwhile, I'd like you to consider why you automatically think that challenge of your thinking comes from LDS.

Just some food for thought.

Jersey Girl

[Bob Betts]

Having been as polite and hospitable in my responses as I possible could be, I can only presume that Mr. Betts refuses to respond to my post because it eviscerates his argument.

And by the way, just as a postscript, your arguments should probably not be based on pitting LDS scripture against an LDS manual. If I thought one or the other were in error, it would be the manual; and this would not be the first time that I disagreed with something that was written in an official LDS manual.

We have that right, as Latter-day Christians.

Or didn't you know that?

I mean, it's not the Watchtower Society, man!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Oh, I know about your agency. But, what are you saying? Is there something you disagree with?

P.S. Give me a post number, please. I don't know which of your posts I skipped. I have skipped a few that only made comments (mostly derogatory), without asking me a question or for my opinion.

[Bob Betts]

I am absolutely sure that they screened "Preach My Gospel" for accuracy, so I agree with you there. And I too have always heard from TBM's that there was a complete apostasy of priesthood keys and authority. And I agree with you that that is exactly what the manual says. The difference, I think, between how we read it is that it has always been my understanding that this universal apostasy was implicitly limited to mortal beings on this planet. This limitation is usually not made explicit.

So, for example, I believe that Jesus Christ, and all other resurrected beings who held keys, continued to do so, in heaven. I believe they could continue to visit the earth, whenever appropriate. I believe that there were perhaps some angels and/or translated (or, if you prefer, transfigured) beings on or near the earth who continued to hold the keys. However, among *mortals* the keys were lost.

Perhaps to give an analogy, the scriptures talk about God putting all things under himself. Paul, later, says [excuse me for paraphrasing] that God Himself is clearly excepted from the statement. Sometimes statements have implicit assumptions that can be made explicit, but do not always need to be so. So, for me, the manual is implicitly talking about mortal beings and the church among mortals; but this implicit assumption could have been made more clear (although there are negatives to making all assumptions clear, all the time, so I am not pretending to tell the General Authorities that this clarification *should* take place).

I see a contradiction if one doesn't implicitly assume that the universal apostasy is limited to mortal beings, yes.

And you are welcome.

Best wishes,

Zeta-Flux

I will respond to you next time I'm on the Board, Zeta-Flux. But, I must leave for a while, maybe until tomorrow. We'll see. You win my affection for being one of the two or three most friendly LDS on the Board. I look forward to discussing further with you.

[captain-jack]

Mr. Betts, I've been kind enough to be patient but you seem more concerned with the others than myself. I won't get hurt by this, but I've stated once a reply to your OP, and asked three times, this post being the fourth, what you have to say about it. It seems that you could have caught it in that many posts and said a simple line, but that hasn't happened. So I guess I'll give us as you don't seem to want to see the scriptural reference to where it says the three Nephites were taken from the Earth and my question of where it says John was granted his wish and did minister in the land. However, I am a moan and know that I can make a mistake, so please let me know if I am in error and you have replied and I just didn't see it as a reply to me.

[NRA]

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

Time out. Recess. There's another flag on this field.

I just realized we're not playing the same game, yet again.

Think this thought now, Bob:

When we (LDS) say there was a General Apostasy, and/or the one true Church fell into apostasy, we're not suggesting that all truth was taken from the Earth, and/or that there were no more true followers of Jesus Christ on the Earth.

"Apostasy" simply refers to the idea of falling away or becoming corrupt.

"General Apostasy" simply refers to an apostasy that affected everybody... to some extent.

Once upon a time there were many prophets and apostles of God walking this Earth.

... and then there weren't.

... until the restoration of the gospel to a modern prophet.

And I know, I know, I have heard it before.

Some people still don't think we need any more prophets and apostles.

Same old story. Different day.

Play ball.

----Bob has been given that info before, on his own site (CC) when this topic ("What do LDS mean when they refer to a great or general apostasy?") has come up. Maybe your try at it will work better, Paul.

[Paul Ray]

----Bob has been given that info before, on his own site (CC) when this topic ("What do LDS mean when they refer to a great or general apostasy?") has come up. Maybe your try at it will work better, Paul.

I doubt it... or rather, I have no reason to be assured of that concept.

Let's do something fun now... or rather, I've had enough fun on this issue.

What's next?

[consiglieri]

Oh, I know about your agency. But, what are you saying? Is there something you disagree with?

P.S. Give me a post number, please. I don't know which of your posts I skipped. I have skipped a few that only made comments (mostly derogatory), without asking me a question or for my opinion.

I am glad that you know about my agency.

What I am saying is that, according to LDS official sources, 4 remaining apostles (even if we grant that the 3 Nephites were apostles, and even if we grant they and John go together for a tete-a-tete for tea), are not sufficient to reconstitute the Church.

Hence, your argument that this is an internal inconsistency in official LDS sources is proven wrong.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bob Betts]

I am absolutely sure that they screened "Preach My Gospel" for accuracy, so I agree with you there. And I too have always heard from TBM's that there was a complete apostasy of priesthood keys and authority. And I agree with you that that is exactly what the manual says. The difference, I think, between how we read it is that it has always been my understanding that this universal apostasy was implicitly limited to mortal beings on this planet. This limitation is usually not made explicit.

So, for example, I believe that Jesus Christ, and all other resurrected beings who held keys, continued to do so, in heaven. I believe they could continue to visit the earth, whenever appropriate. I believe that there were perhaps some angels and/or translated (or, if you prefer, transfigured) beings on or near the earth who continued to hold the keys. However, among *mortals* the keys were lost.

Perhaps to give an analogy, the scriptures talk about God putting all things under himself. Paul, later, says [excuse me for paraphrasing] that God Himself is clearly excepted from the statement. Sometimes statements have implicit assumptions that can be made explicit, but do not always need to be so. So, for me, the manual is implicitly talking about mortal beings and the church among mortals; but this implicit assumption could have been made more clear (although there are negatives to making all assumptions clear, all the time, so I am not pretending to tell the General Authorities that this clarification *should* take place).

I see a contradiction if one doesn't implicitly assume that the universal apostasy is limited to mortal beings, yes.

And you are welcome.

Best wishes,

Zeta-Flux

A well, thought through, response. Thank you.

Correct me if I'm not understanding you, but what I hear you saying is, the only problem with the PMG statement is that it's simply not stated clearly enough. But, if I read between the lines, and realize that the difficulty that I'm having with it may be no more than an understanding of whether the four were mortal or immortal, then my difficulty is minute at best. How'd I do at paraphrasing you?

But, even if I'm way off in putting what you said in other words, I would still respond thus: for me, it comes down to this. For the PMG statement to be true, neither an Apostle nor any other man on earth could be holding the authority/keys of the priesthood from about 100 A.D. until at least the time that Smith allegedly received that priesthood. If that was the case, then the PMG statement that the priesthood authority and keys were taken from the earth, is inarguable, even if not believed.

But, the fact that four men are CLEARLY shown, between D&C 7 and 3 Nephi 28, to have held (and are still holding, "while the world shall stand") the "power and keys of Christ's ministry" until His return, and the fact that their mission time-frame is given (from 34 A.D. to the end of the world), along with what their mission would entail (bring souls to Christ), along with a description of what they did ("uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost" [verses 18 and 23]), along with the location of their ministry being worldwide ("unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people" [D&C 7:3; 3 Nephi 28:29), I cannot comprehend how the PMG statement is factual.

If I've missed your point entirely, I apologize.

[Paul Ray]

Bob,

(and btw, I'm being as nice as I know how to be now)

John and the 3 Nephites were translated beings, or at least that is what we are claiming.

When we say they and their keys were taken from the Earth we mean they were taken from the Earth... in some way.

I don't believe John and the 3 Nephites have ever left this planet, Earth, to go to heaven.

We are told there are many spirits here on this Earth that we simply can't see now.

When and/or if John and the 3 Nephites appear, they will appear as messengers, aka angels.

... if they are truly translated beings.

... just like Moses and Elijah appeared and would appear, as translated beings.

I think it might help for you to ask us to clarify our beliefs to you instead of assuming you understand our beliefs.

When you die you will be taken away from all of us here but you will still be on this Earth with all of us.

[Bob Betts]

So you insist on saying that John and the three nephites were not "taken from the earth."

On light of what your scriptures say, yes. What they desired, Christ made so. There is nothing about Christ changing His mind, withdrawing His promise, altering His promise, or their callings being altered.

Just because it says they would not die, does not mean they remained the whole time on the earth.

This is an argument from silence, since there is no indication that they were taken from the earth, with the exception of the temporary transfiguration. The promise from Christ was that they would receive their desire to not taste death and to bring souls unto Christ while the world shall stand.

Also Peter and James and John had the keys and gave them to Joseph and Oliver in 1829.

I don't believe this for a second, but it's not germane to my OP anyway.

You hold on to this arguement even after your theory has been disproven.

It may have been disproven to you, but not to me. So, in fairness, you should also make it personal, as I have, that my "theory" has been disproven to YOU. A blanket statement that the '"theory" has been disproven' is a matter of opinion, not fact.

Can you point to a Church organization where John and the three nephites have ministered after the apostacy?

I've been asked this before, but it is not necessary for me point that out for my identification of a contradiction to be true.

So how did John testify before all nations and before kings?...it is called the book of Revelation in the Bible.

A book is not what John (allegedly) desired, which Christ granted, according to D&C 7. Same for the Nephites. He desired to not taste death and to bring souls to Christ. THAT is what he was granted, in addition to the "power and keys of Christ's ministry."

[Bob Betts]

Our scriptures also speak of John having one foot in the spirit world and one foot in the Mortal world.

Where?

[Paul Ray]

Where?

I suggest you study our scriptures on the nature and mission of translated beings.

... and you can find our scriptures on the internet by doing a simple google search.