Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[Zeta-Flux]

Dear Bob Betts,

With the great number of posts being made, you might have missed my reply (#147) where I ask some follow-up questions so I can understand your position better. Thank you for your initial reply

Best wishes,

Zeta-Flux

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Where is there anything written in LDS scripture that Christ gave the Three Nephites any keys at all?

Where does it say he gave them "presiding authority"?

I have been asking for this as well just not so straight forward.

[John Williams]

Where is there anything written in LDS scripture that Christ gave the Three Nephites any keys at all?

Where does it say he gave them "presiding authority"?

It's on the large plates, right after it talks about "others" in Nephite lands.

[Bob Betts]

I read your original post again just before posting this as to keep to your original question. I see that they were granted eternal life, so they can continue the Lord's work. But, excuse my inexperience, I failed to see where it says ALL the apostles were needed to be dead for the apostasy to occur.

It doesn't specifically use the word "all." Here's the quote again: "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth." Based on this statement, what was the catalyst for the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority being taken from the earth? The death of the apostles. But, what if all the Apostles didn't die? Then, the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority would still be with those who were alive. That happens to be the case, according to D&C 7 and 3 Nephi 28. Four priestholders were granted to never taste death, but to tarry and use power and the priesthood keys and authority of Christ's ministry, while the world shall stand. Therefore, the LDS manuals which claim a complete apostasy of authority, contradict the LDS scriptures I presented.

The ones that could die did, and again I failed to see where it says John and the three Nephites were commissioned to always teach, without exception. They stopped for a time, thus the apostasy took place.

Look at the passages and see the promises that Christ made to all four of them, which included not tasting death and bringing souls to Christ while the world shall stand, going to all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people. This calling and commissioning required the power and keys of Christ's ministry, which they were given. Even if there was a time of stopping, they were still alive, still carrying with them the power and keys of Christ's ministry, while the world shall stand. What was the stated catalyst for the alleged apostasy? The deaths of the Apostles. But, were all the Apostles dead? No. Did the four priesthood holders ever have their Christ-promised power and keys of Christ's ministry, revoked? Not that is written in the BoM.

Now I hate to derail anything, but if you have a moment please answer my question as to how the Once Saved, Always Saved rule can be if someone converts to LDS after they've been saved and they are no longer saved? You said it in this thread, and it is there that I asked you the question.

I, too, don't want to derail the topic. So, the quick answer is this: if the person is truly saved, they won't stay Mormon. If they stay Mormon they weren't truly saved.

[consiglieri]

Wilford Woodruff, the fourth president of the Church, stated that there must be at least a majority of the quorum of the 12 in order to appoint a new president.

That would mean at least 6 of the twelve would have to be present.

Even if we give full weight to Mr. Betts' arguments about the 4 who tarried, and even if they all got together and had a pow-wow, they would still not make a sufficient number to constitute a quorum. Hence, they would not have the power and authority to reconstitute the Church.

The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, p.91 - p.92

n case of the death of the President of the Church it takes the majority of the Twelve Apostles to appoint the President of the Church, and it is very unreasonable to suppose that the majority of that quorum could be converted to depart from the course marked out by inspiration and followed by the apostles at the death of Christ and by the Twelve Apostles at the death of Joseph Smith. I see no reason for discussing this subject until there is some reason for it.

Does this in any way help to answer Mr. Betts' objection?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I, too, don't want to derail the topic. So, the quick answer is this: if the person is truly saved, they won't stay Mormon. If they stay Mormon they weren't truly saved.

Bob, has spoken, all LDS are going to hell becuase LDS cannot be saved. Got it. Now back on topic.

[consiglieri]

And on another related point, Jacob 5 in the Book of Mormon predicts a complete and total apostasy.

Bob, has spoken, all LDS are going to hell becuase LDS cannot be saved. Got it. Now back on topic.

Not quite right.

We still have time to be saved if we repent and follow Bob Betts.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

And on another related point, Jacob 5 in the Book of Mormon predicts a complete and total apostasy.

Not quite right.

We still have time to be saved if we repent and follow Bob Betts.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

But we cant be LDS, so if you leave then your not LDS. So any one who dies then and is LDS is going to hell. Bob has spoken.

[consiglieri]

But we cant be LDS, so if you leave then your not LDS. So any one who dies then and is LDS is going to hell. Bob has spoken.

Does Bob hold out the possibility of a Mormon repenting in the spirit world and following Mr. Betts to salvation?

If he did, at least his God would be as powerful and merciful as the Mormon god he decries.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bob Betts]

You are correct in that if we believe John the Beloved and the Three Nephites have been on the earth ministering, then there never was a time when ALL priesthood authority left the earth. Meaning, they never "lost" their authority and in reality they probably had greater authority than they had during their earthly lives.

Yet we can equate the concept of universal apostasy in terms of denominational apostasy. Meaning, while these individuals continued to minister, they were not bringing people too or affiliating with a particular denomination. Rather, they were always bringing people to Jesus Christ. This for me is an important distinction.

With all due respect, this doesn't begin to solve the problem of the contradiction I see between the LDS manual statement I quoted, and the LDS scriptures I quoted.

Can we agree that apostasy happens when the church as organization seeks to bring people to the institution over the Lord or seeks mastery over individuals?

No, but I posted a dictionary definition, and an LDS definition I found, early today.

Can we also agree that when a church promotes its superiority over other churches this too is a form of apostasy (becoming the very thing Joseph was warned against joining)?

If we DO agree on this, then wouldn't it apply to a church that claims to be the only true church on the face of the earth, with the additional claim that all other churches are wrong, all their creeds an abomination and all their professors corrupt?

Maybe yours isn't the best way to define apostasy.

[Bob Betts]

This is a key difference between Mormons and evangelicals. Forgive me for stereotyping, but for many evangelicals, the Word is everything. The text of the Bible is God-breathed and infallible and is to be taken literally and exactly as transmitted. Thus the idea that the "written word of [Mormon] religion ... IS in black and white." Most Mormons and even exMormons would find that a foreign approach to the written word. In the LDS religion, the word of God is not restricted to the written standard works. It is received through priesthood leaders, including prophets and apostles, and through the personal ministry of the Holy Ghost. Hence, there isn't much in black and white, and the word of God is fluid and "adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints."

I agree with your assessment. For Christians like me, the Bible is the first and final authority on truth, life, God, salvation and other biblical doctrines.

Again, Bob, you're projecting an evangelical approach to the scriptures and then acting bewildered that Mormons can't see what you do. You'd be much better served if you actually tried to understand what Mormons believe instead of playing this prooftexting game of spiritual "gotcha."

I disagree with your assessment that I'm playing any games. I haven't taken the time and trouble, and will continue to respond to any and all reasonable questions and comments, because I'm playing games. When it comes to spiritual matters, I never play games.

[Bob Betts]

Bob can you address my last two posts?

Regards,

T-Shirt

I'm addressing each post in order, from the first page to the last. If I inadvertantly skip one, let me know, I'll be happy to respond.

[John Williams]

I disagree with your assessment that I'm playing any games. I haven't taken the time and trouble, and will continue to respond to any and all reasonable questions and comments, because I'm playing games. When it comes to spiritual matters, I never play games.

I did not mean to say you were not serious. Everything I know about you says you're dead serious. What I meant is that you're applying your approach to scripture on the assumption that Mormons read things the same way. From what I can tell, you're trying to get Mormons to agree that there are problems with the doctrines; but those problems arise only from a reading of those texts that most Mormons would not agree with. Thus, it's pointless prooftexting.

[Bob Betts]

Bob,

I know your busy. Thank you for your time. I know there are a lot of questions and you have to admit it is mostly fun. Now if you can just look abck and see my last 2 or 3 posts. See what you think.

As I just stated (belatedly) to T-Shirt, I'm answering posts in order, first to last. If I inadvertantly skipped on of yours, let me know.

[Bob Betts]

Dear Bob Betts,

You may have missed my post near the bottom of page 5. I'm interested in your response.

Thanks,

Zeta-Flux

I think I finally got to that one yesterday. I'm sorry that I'm always about 2-3 pages behind. "The hurrier I go, the behinder I get," as my Grandfather you to say.

[Thunderfire]

If we DO agree on this, then wouldn't it apply to a church that claims to be the only true church on the face of the earth, with the additional claim that all other churches are wrong, all their creeds an abomination and all their professors corrupt?

Maybe yours isn't the best way to define apostasy.

Hello Bob,

To begin, I'm not a member of the LDS and I was speaking to all denominations that preach they are the one true church (denomination) on the earth. I was speaking to all the "professors" who bring people to their denomination and not the Lord Jesus Christ. And I was speaking to all denominations that require members to profess certain creeds to prove faith. Apostasy is basically the worship of anything else besides God!

So Yes, I do see some members of the LDS faith that promote how they are the one true church. But I can also point to members of MANY other denominations that also believe they attend the one true church as well. Priest contending against Priest and member against member. All fighting to prove who is "right" with the Lord, yet failing to follow the greatest commandments to love God and each other.

It's people that fall into apostasy and it is done when we fall to follow the commands of the Lord and follow. Now let's apply this concept to this thread. Are we seeking to prove how all of us are in apostasy by how this conversation is going?

Thanks for responding!

In Christ I Serve,

Thunderfire

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

As I just stated (belatedly) to T-Shirt, I'm answering posts in order, first to last. If I inadvertantly skipped on of yours, let me know.

You have done great and have not missed any of my posts. I think we are posting much faster than you are. So its all good.

[NRA]

Wilford Woodruff, the fourth president of the Church, stated that there must be at least a majority of the quorum of the 12 in order to appoint a new president.That would mean at least 6 of the twelve would have to be present.Even if we give full weight to Mr. Betts' arguments about the 4 who tarried, and even if they all got together and had a pow-wow, they would still not make a sufficient number to constitute a quorum. Hence, they would not have the power and authority to reconstitute the Church.

Does this in any way help to answer Mr. Betts' objection?All the Best!--Consiglieri

----I have been thinking the same for a while, in regard to the Jerusalem-based church: Once a majority of the apostles were dead or in prison, how could they meet together to appoint replacement apostles, and to run the church in all its branch cities? There was no longer a viable quorum, so the result (a church lacking in legitimate authority and leadership) was inevitable.

[Bob Betts]

I believe this question was answered about four decades ago.

Was the Priesthood Ever Completely Taken from the Earth?

Question: "It is frequently stated that there was a complete apostasy from the gospel throughout the entire world following the death of our Savior and his Apostles. It seems if this is literally true, that the inhabitants of the world were left entirely to the enticing influence of Satan and his followers. Will you please enlighten us on this point?"

Answer: There has never been a time from the beginning when the influence of the Spirit of the Lord has not been active on the face of the earth. Our Eternal Father has never surrendered the human family completely to the power and influence of Satan. It is true that the time came when there was no one left in mortal life with authority to organize and set in order the kingdom of God. However, there never has been a time when the inhabitants have been entirely subject to Lucifer and his followers without some means of inspiration.

THE DARK PERIOD AFTER THE DEATH OF THE APOSTLES

During the dark period after the death of all but one of the apostles and their rightful successors holding the divine authority, there was no person on the earth who was authorized to restore the Holy Priesthood.

This appears to be a "yes" to the first question above, "Was the Priesthood Ever Completely Taken from the Earth"?

Nevertheless, during these dark years there were many righteous persons endeavoring to keep the commandments of the Lord to the best of their ability and understanding. Mormon in writing to his son Moroni made this enlightening statement:

For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. (Moroni 7:16.)

This must have been true even in the dark days of universal departure from the way of eternal life. However, after false teachings and organizations had been introduced, the time came when the pure gospel of Jesus was not found among men on the earth;

Not even among John the Beloved and the three Nephites, who were bringing souls unto Christ, amongst all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people?

false ordinances and doctrine had been substituted for the divine truth in all parts of the earth;

What about Christ's promise that the four would "minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them."? Never happened?

and the Holy Priesthood had been replaced by false creeds and a spurious order of priesthood.

Tell that to the four who are alleged to have been granted permission to tarry, and use the power and keys of Christ's ministry, while the world shall stand.

This does not argue or prove that the influence of the Lord had disappeared and that the earth had been surrendered entirely to Satan. In the Doctrine and Covenants we have this divine revelation given by the Prophet Joseph Smith:

REVELATION GIVEN TO PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH

Thus saith the Lord; for I am God, and have sent mine Only Begotten Son into the world for the redemption of the world, and have decreed that he that receiveth him shall be saved, and he that receiveth him not shall be damnedâ??And they have done unto the Son of Man even as they listed; and he has taken his power on the right hand of his glory, and now reigneth in the heavens, and will reign till he descends on the earth to put all enemies under his feet, which time is nigh at handâ??I, the Lord God, have spoken it; but the hour and the day no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor shall they know until he comes.Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of. (D. & C. 49:5-8.)

There are several important prophets who were granted the privilege of remaining on the earth. John the Revelator was one of these, and in the Doctrine and Covenants, section seven, is an account of this.

No mention of WHY he was granted the privilege, here. It was because he wanted to tarry to bring souls unto Christ, using the power and keys of Christ's ministry, which he was given, "unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people." Thus, contradicting JFS's teaching that "the time came when the pure gospel of Jesus was not found among men on the earth." and that "false ordinances and doctrine had been substituted for the divine truth in all parts of the earth;"

Elijah evidently was another, for no living soul could have received the resurrection until after our Redeemer had opened the graves. The scriptural inference is that Moses also was translated as was Alma.

No mention of the three Nephites, their priesthood callings and authority, never tasting death, etc.

In the case of Alma we read in the book of Alma the following:

And when Alma had done this he departed out of the land of Zarahemla, as if to go into the land of Melek. And it came to pass that he was never heard of more; as to his death or burial we know not of.Behold, this we know, that he was a righteous man; and the saying went abroad in the church that he was taken up by the Spirit, or buried by the hand of the Lord, even as Moses. But behold, the scriptures saith the Lord took Moses unto himself; and we suppose that he has also received Alma in the spirit, unto himself; therefore, for this cause we know nothing concerning his death and burial. (A1ma 45:18-19. )

It is a very reasonable thought to believe that both Moses and Alma, like Elijah and John, were translated to accomplish some work which the Lord had in store for them at some future day.

Joseph Fielding Smith, 5 Answers to Gospel Questions 36-38 (1966)

The omissions are glaring. Joseph Fielding Smith certainly didn't address the question I've raised. He certainly didn't address Johns priesthood calling, and said absolutely nothing about the three Nephites.

[Bob Betts]

Mr. Betts,

I apologize if an earlier post of mine offended you. It was duly removed. However, I think as people noted, this argument you are advancing might be effective in persuading an evangelical not to become Mormon, since how you have been proof-texting the cited sources in a manner which is consistent with how evangelicals interpret the scriptures. However, this argument will not be persuasive to Mormons, because they do not approach any scriptures the way evangelicals do. This line of arguing is essentially playing to your base of supporters, and it has been give a response which is adequate to Mormons, but inadequate to you. If I were you, I'd just agree to disagree, and stop .

Sincerely yours,

Notquite

1) Apology accepted, and thank you. 2) There's no reason to play to any "base of supporters." They knew my position on this long ago. Nor do I want anyone to think I'm playing, at all. I'm not. 3) I've already stated that the only reason I keep going with this is because people keep asking me questions, or asking me to comment on their comment. If this is what you call beating a dead horse, I'm not the only one doing the beating. You all share responsibility.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

1) Apology accepted, and thank you. 2) There's no reason to play to any "base of supporters." They knew my position on this long ago. Nor do I want anyone to think I'm playing, at all. I'm not. 3) I've already stated that the only reason I keep going with this is because people keep asking me questions, or asking me to comment on their comment. If this is what you call beating a dead horse, I'm not the only one doing the beating. You all share responsibility.

I gladly accept that I am

It must not be all that dead.

[Bob Betts]

Dear Bob Betts,

Thank you for your response. If the "Preach My Gospel Manual" had instead said: "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from mortals on the earth" would you still consider this a contradiction with our scriptures?

No. It was the four immortal ones who were said to hold the power and keys of Christ's ministry, and I've not read in the BoM (post 3 Nephi 28) that they conferred that power, authority or keys on anyone else. Only that they used them for the salvation, baptism and HG receipt of others.

[Bob Betts]

That is correct. Nevertheless, the correct word is "translated" as illustrated in my prior quotes.

Here is some additional explanation.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism 1485 (1992)

M. Nyman & C. Tate, Jr., eds., Third Nephi 9-30: This Is My Gospel 244-245 (1993)

This issue isn't really germane to my OP question.

But, having read your post, I get the impression that I'm either being told that "transfigured" is the wrong word in 3 Nephi 28:15 & 17, and SHOULD be translated, OR they were transfigured AND translated, though the text neither says, nor implies translation.

Am I close?

[Bob Betts]

My question for Bob would be, "Why do you even care what a bunch of stupid Mormons believe??"

Oh, Silver Girl, I don't view Mormons as stupid in the least. They are some of the most intelligent people in the world. But, deception is no respector of IQ's. Some of the most intelligent and educated people in the world are atheists or agnostics or gnostics or any of the non-Christian religions.

You have no intention of joining our Church... You seem to believe we are a bunch of mindless sheep,

Sheep? Yes.

who are all going to Hell anyway...

That's yet to be seen. Today is the day of salvation.

You seem to believe our scriptures provide teachings contrary to the word of God...

They absolutely do.

And you obviously think you are far superior to we lowly "Mormons"...

Ooooo, no. I'm superior to no one. Apart from Christ I am nothing. In Him I live and move and have my being. I am dust in the wind.

You know all, we know nothing...

I know the Bible and I know God. I know Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

This appears to be a big game of semantics to you...

Not in the slightest.

You are playing games with things that we hold dear??

Not with the slightest bit of intention.

I am sorry that you have such an Un-Christian attitude...

I have the purest of love for YOU and all Mormons. But, I also love the truth proclaimed in the Bible.

It makes me very sad for you....

Thank you, but your sadness is wasted on me. I love God and my neighbor. I know I will be with Heavenly Father when I die, no matter what the mormon religion says otherwise. Because, I know the salvation preached by Christ and His Apostles. It's by trust. And I trust Christ for my salvation, implicitly. I am eternally secure.

If you died tonight, do you know where YOU'D go for eternity.

Why don't EVs realize that you can disagree with others, and still be loving to them??

I've not said one impolite, disrespectful word, in the week I've been on this Board. I've strenuously disagreed, but not disrespected.

I guess it wouldn't score you as many "points" in your little game...

I'm neither scoring points nor playing games. I'm sharing my point of view, answering people's questions and comments, and being completely respectful (though I've been the recipient of a great deal of disrespect on this Board). I've observed this commonality among LDS: if you challenge their beliefs, and claim they are false, they take that as hate and judgment and disrespect. I intend nothing of the sort. I regret that you feel that way.

That REALLY makes me sad for you...

I am at peace with God, and I have nothing personal against any LDS. My life is good. My marriage is great. My relationships with my kids and grandkids (and one on the way) are fantastic. And, best of all, Christ is my Savior. It doesn't get any better than this. No need to feel sad for me, Silver Girl. But thank you anyway.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It's by trust. And I trust Christ for my salvation, implicitly. I am eternally secure.

If you died tonight, do you know where YOU'D go for eternity.

I would be saved in the kingdom of God, in the highest heaven.

Bob we had a nice chat about Eternal security. We can rehash it if you want??