Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[Anijen]

About as off topic as Joseph Smith's Jupiter talisman. I would just be showing people how to make their own.

Many in the Evangelical community (which would be yours, I think) like to play up the Mormon/Mason/occult connections as if they somehow discredit Mormonism. Personally, I see it as a positive thing that actually adds to its credibility, and if I were post at your board that's what I would focus on.

So, what do you say? Can I teach your people how to practice black magic?

out of curiosity what the heck, teach away. I am already pretty good with the divining rod, but my voodoo doll sure needs some work...

[Tsuzuki]

I heard most of the Concerned Christians were already practicing alchemists.

Sweet!

[Bob Betts]

This is very germane. You have proposed an interpretation of certain LDS writings. Unfortunately, you seem to be having difficulty understanding whether 3 Nephi 28 speaks of transfiguration, translation or both. If you cannot address this simple matter, why should we pay any attention to your other interpretations of these writings?

Well, someone could get a "simple matter" wrong, yet be right about the big picture. I'm not saying this by way of an admission on my part, I'm just saying. But, though the issue of translation, according to 3 Nephi 28:38-39 is not relevant to my OP, since you think it is, I'll respond.

The quotes I posted explained that the Three Nephites were transfigured when they were caught up and were also translated so that they would remain to accomplish various missions until the judgment day of Christ. 3 Nephi 28:39 clearly describes translation, not transfiguration.

First, lets define terms. Using NT Greek, transfigure (metamorphoo) means to change into another form; to transform. In the biblical cases of Matt. 17:2 and Mark 9:2, the change or transformation into another form, is of the human body being temporarily transformed into another form. Translate (metatithemi) means to transfer to a different place (meta, "change," thithemi, "to put"). It is used in Heb. 11:5 with reference to Enoch, who was transfered to heaven without experiencing death.

38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world.

39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not atempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.

Now, lets see if these verses prove "translation." What "changes" did they experience? 1) "...that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world;" "...Satan could have no power over them;" 3) "that Satan could not tempt them;" 4) "...they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy...;" and, "...that the powers of the earth could not hold them." Which of these "changes" have anything to do with being transferred to another place?

The disadvantage you have with attempting to define transfigure and translate from the BoM text above is, you don't have the meanings of the words in the alleged language, not known in any part of the world, called Reformed Egyptian. You either have to agree with the Greek definitions of those two words, or give up your defense.

Second, the definitions of these terms don't change the point of my OP. There's a contradiction between the doctrine of a complete apostasy of authority, and the LDS scriptures which demonstrate that the power, and the priesthood keys and authority of Christ's ministry, were never (and aren't still, according to the LDS scriptures) taken from the earth.

[Tsuzuki]

Second, the definitions of these terms don't change the point of my OP. There's a contradiction between the doctrine of a complete apostasy of authority, and the LDS scriptures which demonstrate that the power, and the priesthood keys and authority of Christ's ministry, were never (and aren't still, according to the LDS scriptures) taken from the earth.

Or maybe you're just misunderstanding some of our doctrines, as many in this thread have been trying to point out.

[Bob Betts]

It's too big of a house to clean up. I can only do my part in my OWN life and heart, and within MY sphere of influence. I definitely work at it.

--You WORK at it? If an LDS made a statement like that, the typical anti-LDS Evan would scream "You have works-based righteousness! For REAL Christians, it's GOD working IN us--not anything WE do, lest any should boast!"

No, you still don't understand biblical salvation, and the appropriate use of "works."

As a Christian, I do works. As a non-Christian, I could do no works to earn my salvation, because salvation is "the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." Thus, to become a Christian is neither works nor righteousness based. Salvation is based on Christ's works and righteousness, only.

So, when I said, "I definitely work at it," I mean as a Christian, who already has salvation.

[Bob Betts]

And, I've been deceitful HOW?

---Have you announced to the folks here that you are convinced, beyond any doubt, that LDS and their buildings are surrounded by an evil spirit that influences people to believe that LDS teachings are legit? (If my paraphrase of your position is inaccurate, feel free to correct it)

<sigh> And, how exactly am I deceitful for not bringing something up in the mere 9 days I've been on this Board (most of which time I've spent on this thread), when there are tons of things I COULD bring up, but haven't (yet).

And, yes, your paraphrase is inaccurate. And, since you couldn't quote me, as I've requested that people do, in all fairness to me (and you know my reasons why), now you want me to take the time and trouble to correct you, and derail the topic? Perhaps a different time and thread, Jeff. In the meantime, perhaps you could do the work yourself, and find the quote.

Thanks (I think)

[e=mc2]

Structurcop:

I heard most of the Concerned Christians were already practicing alchemists.

And unfortunately, Mormons should be also, but we remain too lazy and uninformed to enjoy the benefits and fruits of this wonderous practice. I suspect far too many of us suspect (wrongly) that it is not religious, and if it is, then it isn't in regard to Mormonism, than which nothing can be further from the truth.

[Pahoran]

The disadvantage you have with attempting to define transfigure and translate from the BoM text above is, you don't have the meanings of the words in the alleged language, not known in any part of the world, called Reformed Egyptian. You either have to agree with the Greek definitions of those two words, or give up your defense.

Bob,

the disadvantage you have with attempting to define LDS doctrinal terminology is two-fold: (1) your expertise in the subject is undemonstrated, and (2) you are clearly used to being the big cheese in a forum where you can make your assertions stick merely by administrative fiat. That is not the case here.

(Although in all fairness, I must say that your moderation, though heavy-handed, dictatorial and utterly partisan, is downright liberal and fair-minded compared to how Paul D runs his forum. You at least do not forbid Latter-day Saints from defending their faith from the Bible--or at least, you didn't when I was there.)

LDS theological terms mean what they mean to us, and nothing else. You've created an arbitrary rule to the effect that if a word is used to translate a particular Greek term in the New Testament, then absent an alternative source, it can have no other meaning for us.

In the which, you are wrong.

But as you yourself said, it is a matter of little consequence.

You are also wrong about what you are pleased to call "Reformed Egyptian." Note that the "reformed" is an adjective, not a proper noun, and as such is not capitalised. The anti-Mormon insistence upon "Reformed Egyptian" as a proper noun is a straw man.

The fact is that the Egyptian language--or more properly, its writing system--was indeed "reformed" a number of times. This point is not disputed by anyone who knows anything.

But you are right about one thing: "the alleged language, not known in any part of the world, called Reformed Egyptian" is indeed "not known in any part of the world." Including in LDS scholarly circles.

We do not claim such a thing exists.

Never have.

Second, the definitions of these terms don't change the point of my OP. There's a contradiction between the doctrine of a complete apostasy of authority, and the LDS scriptures which demonstrate that the power, and the priesthood keys and authority of Christ's ministry, were never (and aren't still, according to the LDS scriptures) taken from the earth.

No. There is not.

At some point John and the Three were told to cease ministering openly. Thus, their ministry was taken away from the earthly churches with which they were originally associated, leaving those churches, bereft of apostolic (or in the Nephite case quasi-apostolic) direction, to die in their sins.

Regards,

Pahoran

[consiglieri]

In post number 236, I demonstrated how Mr. Betts shifted his argument when confronted with the LDS doctrine of the necessity of a majority of the quorum of the twelve in order to reconstitute the Church.

Up to that point, Mr. Betts had been arguing that LDS official sources contradict official LDS sources on the subject.

When I brought forward an official LDS source that resolves the difficulty (the quote from Wilford Woodruff), Mr. Betts shifted the argument to be that the LDS sources are inconsistent with his interpretation of the Bible, and started talking about their being more than 12 apostles at one time in New Testament times.

This shift was a non sequiter to the subject under discussion, and amounts to a tacit admission by Mr. Betts that he has lost this particular argument.

LDS official sources are not interntally inconsistent on this subject.

Perhaps it would be time for Mr. Betts to start another thread with another argument.

I wish him better luck on his future arguments against the Lord's Church.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Tsuzuki]

Perhaps it would be time for Mr. Betts to start another thread with another argument.

I wish him better luck on his future arguments against the Lord's Church.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Might I suggest something to do with occultism?

[NRA]

---Have you announced to the folks here that you are convinced, beyond any doubt, that LDS and their buildings are surrounded by an evil spirit that influences people to believe that LDS teachings are legit? (If my paraphrase of your position is inaccurate, feel free to correct it) <sigh> And, how exactly am I deceitful for not bringing something up in the mere 9 days I've been on this Board (most of which time I've spent on this thread), when there are tons of things I COULD bring up, but haven't (yet).

And, yes, your paraphrase is inaccurate. And, since you couldn't quote me, as I've requested that people do, in all fairness to me (and you know my reasons why), now you want me to take the time and trouble to correct you, and derail the topic? Perhaps a different time and thread, Jeff. In the meantime, perhaps you could do the work yourself, and find the quote.

Thanks (I think)

---Fair enough on all accounts. The question wasn't completely serious anyhow. It was admittedly off-topic, but since I didn't want to make a whole thread out of it, I just asked it in passing, hoping for a one-time, one-post response. And you shouldn't be expected to have to tell every aspect of your life in the short time you have been here, so I understand. But don't forget to mention the death threats, at some point in time when you're caught up with your responses to everyone's questions.

[Lachoneus]

Well, someone could get a "simple matter" wrong, yet be right about the big picture.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect in both.

First, lets define terms.

Good idea. Metatithemi means "1. in local sense, to transpose . . . 2. to change, alter . . ."

Now, if you want to use Enoch as your example, let's see what the Bible says. "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." That Enoch "was not" because "God took him" would seem to justify the sense of "translate" meaning "to transpose," or move from one place to another, if we assume that God "taking" Enoch implies a physical change of position.

The other place the translation of Enoch is mentioned is Hebrews 11:5. "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Here we see that the result of Enoch's translation was that "he should not see death." This justifies the sense of "translate" meaning "to change, alter." Enoch was changed so he would no longer be subject to death.

In addition, Heb 11:5 adds that "and [Enoch] was not found, because God translated him." This seems to justify the meaning that Enoch was translated in the sense of changing physical location.

From the above we see that "translate" means both to change physical location and to change or alter. Enoch experienced both of these meanings because he was "taken" by God and became no longer subject to death.

Now let's compare this to the description of what happened to the Three Nephites.

First, were they "taken" by God? Yes. "And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things." (3 Nephi 28:13) So, like Enoch, they were "taken" by God. The difference, of course, is that they had a mission on the earth and were quickly returned so that they could fulfill that mission.

Second, were they changed or altered so that they would not see death? Yes. "Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven." (3 Nephi 28:7) Thus we see that the description of what happened to the Three Nephites exactly matches the Biblical definition and usage of the term "translated."

As to the word "transfigured," what does the Bible say? "And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light." (Matthew 17:2) Similar statements are found in Mark 9:2 and Luke 9:29.

Was Christ "taken" by God? No. Not one word indicates that he was, at this time, "taken." Instead, Moses and Elijah came to him. Was Christ at this time made not subject to death? Of course not.

So, what can we conclude? Here is a brief summary:

Latter-day Saint scriptures speak of a unique class of beings, persons whom the Lord has "translated" or changed from a mortal state to one in which they are temporarily not subject to death, and in which they experience neither pain nor sorrow except for the sins of the world. Such beings appear to have much greater power than mortals. All translated beings will eventually experience physical death and resurrection (MD, p. 807-808). Translation is a necessary condition in special instances to further the work of the Lord.Translated beings are not resurrected beings, though all translated beings either have since been or yet will be resurrected or "changed in the twinkling of an eye" to a resurrected state (3 Ne. 28:. In effect, this last change is their death, and they therefore receive what amounts to an instantaneous death and resurrection. Resurrection is a step beyond translation, and persons translated prior to the resurrection of Christ were resurrected with him (cf. D&C 133:54-55); it is expected that those translated since Christ's resurrection will be resurrected at his second coming.During the period from Adam to Melchizedek, many faithful persons were translated. Enoch and the righteous residents of his city of Zion were translated not many years after Adam's death (Moses 7:18-21, 31, 63, 69; D&C 38:4; 45:11-14; 84:99-100; Gen. 5:22-24; Heb. 11:5). During the period from Enoch to Noah, it appears that faithful members of the Church were translated, for "the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion" (Moses 7:27).After the Flood, others were also translated. In his inspired rendition of the Bible, Joseph Smith tells of many who "were translated and taken up into heaven" (JST Gen. 14:32-34). Fewer translations apparently occurred in the New Testament era, though John the beloved (John 21:20-23; D&C 7) and the three Nephites were translated (3 Ne. 28).Translated beings are assigned special ministries, some to remain among mortals, as seems to be the case of John and the Three Nephites, or for other purposes, as in the case of Moses and Elijah, who were translated in order to appear with physical bodies hundreds of years later on the mount of transfiguration prior to the resurrection of Christ. Had they been spirits only, they could not have laid hands on the mortal Peter, James, and John (cf. D&C 129:3-. Why those of Enoch's city were translated, we are not specifically informed, although the Prophet Joseph Smith explained the role of translated beings thus: "Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead" (TPJS, p. 170).The scriptures do not define differences between transfiguration and translation, but it appears that transfiguration is more temporary, as in Matthew 17:1-9 and Moses 1:11, occurring primarily to permit one to behold spiritual things not possible in the mortal condition.

(Encyclopedia of Mormonism, p.1486)

The disadvantage you have with attempting to define transfigure and translate from the BoM text above is, you don't have the meanings of the words in the alleged language, not known in any part of the world, called Reformed Egyptian. You either have to agree with the Greek definitions of those two words, or give up your defense.

(1) There is no language known as Reformed Egyptian and the Book of Mormon never mentions one. In Mormon 9:2, Mormon speaks of certain "characters" which the Nephites had altered and called "reformed Egyptian." "And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech."

(2) The Greek definitions might be interesting for New Testament usage, but I see no reason to think that persons from other countries are in any way bound by those definitions for their own usage of their own words to express similar concepts.

Second, the definitions of these terms don't change the point of my OP. There's a contradiction between the doctrine of a complete apostasy of authority, and the LDS scriptures which demonstrate that the power, and the priesthood keys and authority of Christ's ministry, were never (and aren't still, according to the LDS scriptures) taken from the earth.

As I have explained in another post, there is no contradiction.

BTW, since Noah and his family (8 people) were the only righteous people in the entire world in their day, would you deny that an apostasy occurred? Also, before the coming of Christ, will there be an apostasy (2 Thess 2:3) or will there always be concerned Christians until he comes?

[Bob Betts]

According to Preach My Gospel:

"After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrines were corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost."

1. It is true that after the death of Jesus, the apostles were persecuted and killed. LDS believe that John

was allowed to remain on earth until the return of the Lord because he made that request. I am not familiar with how the rest of the Christian world interprets the exchange between Jesus, Peter, and John.

But, according to D&C 7:1-3:

"1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired."

So, this is one Apostle that never died, carrying priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, with permission to NEVER taste death, with power OVER death, and the ability to bring souls to Christ, and prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people, until Christ returns.

I'd go into it, but it's not relevant to the OP.

2. According to LDS doctrine, the presiding keys of the priesthood (the authority to ordain other

men to the priesthood and thus perpetuate the organization of the church), are held by the president of the church. LDS believe that Peter was the president of the early church. In the absence of the president, the keys are held collectively by the quorum of 12. A majority of that quorum is required to ordain a new president, according to LDS doctrine and practice.

Regardless of current LDS doctrine, D&C 7 and 3 Nephi 28 are (alleged) special situations where Christ allowed the extraordinary permission for four men to live one with priesthood authorities and powers and keys of Christ's ministry, contrary to the LDS doctrine that the priesthood authority and keys were taken from the earth.

3. With the loss of the president, Peter, and the majority of the quorum, the presiding keys no longer

existed on the earth. Nothing in LDS doctrine can be interpreted to say John became the president of the church or that he held the presiding keys or functioned in any way to perpetuate the church organization as part of his ministry after his translation.

According to LDS scripture (D&C 7 and 3 Nephi 28 ), you are incorrect to associate what is current doctrine, with the unique callings permitted by Christ.

4. It is true that over time doctrines were corrupted and unauthorized. Evidence is the many councils called to make corrections and define orthodoxy and the so-called Protestant Reformation. There is no single Christian doctrine concerning baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost. There is no Christian on earth who speaks with authority for Christ (other than the Pope whose authority is not recognized by many Christians) to resolve this issue. Hence the need for a restoration of the keys, which was done by Peter, James, and John.

The OP question is about the written statement made in LDS manuals, and the LDS scriptures contradicting each other.

Then there are the three Nephites, asking for and receiving the same things that John asked for and received, according to 3 Nephi 28:

"4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand."

And, after a brief transfiguration experience, about which they were commanded not to speak, their work began. According to 3 Nephi 28:18 they were doing what John was doing, as priesthood holders with the keys to the kingdom, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost."

1. This scripture does not say that John replaced or succeeded Peter as president of the church.

You keep trying to apply normal LDS operating procedure, to four guys being granted to remain alive and use the power and keys of Christ's ministry until Christ's return.

[Bob Betts]

According to Preach My Gospel:

"After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrines were corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost."

1. It is true that after the death of Jesus, the apostles were persecuted and killed. LDS believe that John

was allowed to remain on earth until the return of the Lord because he made that request. I am not familiar with how the rest of the Christian world interprets the exchange between Jesus, Peter, and John.

And, I could explain it, but it's not relative to the point of the OP.

2. According to LDS doctrine, the presiding keys of the priesthood (the authority to ordain other

men to the priesthood and thus perpetuate the organization of the church), are held by the president of the church. LDS believe that Peter was the president of the early church. In the absence of the president, the keys are held collectively by the quorum of 12. A majority of that quorum is required to ordain a new president, according to LDS doctrine and practice.

That may be SOP, but the four had special callings, according to D&C 7 and 3 Nephi 28.

3. With the loss of the president, Peter, and the majority of the quorum, the presiding keys no longer

existed on the earth. Nothing in LDS doctrine can be interpreted to say John became the president of the church or that he held the presiding keys or functioned in any way to perpetuate the church organization as part of his ministry after his translation.

1) there is no mention of translation in either D&C 7 or 3 Nephi 28. 2) the keys DID exist on the earth, according to D&C 7:7.

4. It is true that over time doctrines were corrupted and unauthorized. Evidence is the many councils called to make corrections and define orthodoxy and the so-called Protestant Reformation. There is no single Christian doctrine concerning baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost. There is no Christian on earth who speaks with authority for Christ (other than the Pope whose authority is not recognized by many Christians) to resolve this issue. Hence the need for a restoration of the keys, which was done by Peter, James, and John.

There was no apostasy of authority and keys, since four men held them, as I shown from LDS scriptures, through 11 pages.

But, according to D&C 7:1-3:

"1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired."

So, this is one Apostle that never died, carrying priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, with permission to NEVER taste death, with power OVER death, and the ability to bring souls to Christ, and prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people, until Christ returns.

1. This scripture does not say that John replaced or succeeded Peter as president of the church.

But, it does say that John was allowed to tarry until the Christ's return in order to bring souls to Christ, and was given the power and keys of Christ's ministry to do so.

2. It would be contrary to the order and nature of the priesthood for a translated being to preside over the earthly church. John would become a "ministering angel" not a "presiding angel."

1) It would be contrary to the order and nature of humanity, for four guys to be given power over death, and live on. But, that's allegedly what happened. 2) John was made "AS flaming fire and a ministering angel." 3) What John presided over, if anything is not relevant to my OP. The only thing relevant is the contradiction between the LDS manual and the LDS scriptures.

3. John's post-translation ministry has not been documented; therefore, one can only speculate what

he has been doing or what influence he may have had.

1) Neither D&C 7 or 3 Nephi 28 say anything about translation, only transfiguration. 2) From D&C 7, we know exactly what John's callings were.

Then there are the three Nephites, asking for and receiving the same things that John asked for and received, according to 3 Nephi 28:

"4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

[Anijen]

Bob, this post has been answered. Give it up already, your starting to sound like sour grapes.

[freakin a man]

Bob: "There was no apostasy of authority and keys, since four men held them, as I shown from LDS scriptures, through 11 pages."

And you have failed to show at any point during the apostasy period that these 4 ever ordained one person to the Priesthood or used the Priesthood to administer the ordiances like baptism and confirmation. So the fact that they held the priesthood makes no difference as the blessings of the priesthood where completely removed from people on the earth. If you chose to make up your own version of the apostasy, so be it. But deal with what the LDS view is on the apostasy in its terms and not your terms.

If I lived in a place where I was the only priesthood holder but was instructed not to use the priesthood to administer the ordinances or ordain others to the priesthood, then effectively the priesthood is taken from the people. You will also note that when the Nephites became wicked, the 3 Nephites left them. WHere did they go? How ofter do they even walk among mortal man? We don't know what their activities are but we do know that during the apostasy period, not one mortal person on the planet who claimed to be a christian or anyone else had the priesthood.

[Bob Betts]

According to Preach My Gospel:

"After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrines were corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost."

1. It is true that after the death of Jesus, the apostles were persecuted and killed. LDS believe that John

was allowed to remain on earth until the return of the Lord because he made that request. I am not familiar with how the rest of the Christian world interprets the exchange between Jesus, Peter, and John.

And, I could explain it, but it's not relative to the point of the OP.

2. According to LDS doctrine, the presiding keys of the priesthood (the authority to ordain other

men to the priesthood and thus perpetuate the organization of the church), are held by the president of the church. LDS believe that Peter was the president of the early church. In the absence of the president, the keys are held collectively by the quorum of 12. A majority of that quorum is required to ordain a new president, according to LDS doctrine and practice.

That may be SOP, but the four had special callings, according to D&C 7 and 3 Nephi 28.

3. With the loss of the president, Peter, and the majority of the quorum, the presiding keys no longer

existed on the earth. Nothing in LDS doctrine can be interpreted to say John became the president of the church or that he held the presiding keys or functioned in any way to perpetuate the church organization as part of his ministry after his translation.

1) there is no mention of translation in either D&C 7 or 3 Nephi 28. 2) the keys DID exist on the earth, according to D&C 7:7.

4. It is true that over time doctrines were corrupted and unauthorized. Evidence is the many councils called to make corrections and define orthodoxy and the so-called Protestant Reformation. There is no single Christian doctrine concerning baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost. There is no Christian on earth who speaks with authority for Christ (other than the Pope whose authority is not recognized by many Christians) to resolve this issue. Hence the need for a restoration of the keys, which was done by Peter, James, and John.

There was no apostasy of authority and keys, since four men held them, as I shown from LDS scriptures, through 11 pages.

But, according to D&C 7:1-3:

"1 And the Lord said unto me: John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me power over death, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt tarry until I come in my glory, and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring souls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my kingdom.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater work yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will give this power and the keys of this ministry until I come.

8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both joy in that which ye have desired."

So, this is one Apostle that never died, carrying priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority, with permission to NEVER taste death, with power OVER death, and the ability to bring souls to Christ, and prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people, until Christ returns.

1. This scripture does not say that John replaced or succeeded Peter as president of the church.

But, it does say that John was allowed to tarry until the Christ's return in order to bring souls to Christ, and was given the power and keys of Christ's ministry to do so.

2. It would be contrary to the order and nature of the priesthood for a translated being to preside over the earthly church. John would become a "ministering angel" not a "presiding angel."

1) It would be contrary to the order and nature of humanity, for four guys to be given power over death, and live on. But, that's allegedly what happened. 2) John was made "AS flaming fire and a ministering angel." 3) What John presided over, if anything is not relevant to my OP. The only thing relevant is the contradiction between the LDS manual and the LDS scriptures.

3. John's post-translation ministry has not been documented; therefore, one can only speculate what

he has been doing or what influence he may have had.

1) Neither D&C 7 or 3 Nephi 28 say anything about translation, only transfiguration. 2) From D&C 7, we know exactly what John's callings were.

Then there are the three Nephites, asking for and receiving the same things that John asked for and received, according to 3 Nephi 28:

"4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?

5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.

6 And he said unto them: Behold, I know your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.

7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall never taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.

8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.

9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the sins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand."

And, after a brief transfiguration experience, about which they were commanded not to speak, their work began. According to 3 Nephi 28:18 they were doing what John was doing, as priesthood holders with the keys to the kingdom, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost."

1. Yes, the 3 Nephite disciples were granted the same wish as John.

Correct.

2. Yes, they ministered to the Nephite church in the way described in 3 Nephi.

Correct.

3. The 12 Nephite disciples (specially ordained to lead the Nephite church, but never called apostles)

are explicitly described as subservient to the 12 Jerusalem apostles.

Whatever.

4. It is a gross understatement to dismiss their encounter with the divine as a "brief transfiguration

experience."

You and I don't have any idea from the text, how long the alleged transfiguration lasted. But, from reading Matt. 17, THAT transfiguration was less than a day. Maybe less than an hour.

5. Incidently, contrary to some who claim the Book of Mormon does not teach deification, 3 Nephi 28:10 explicitly declares the future deification of the 3 Nephite disciples.

1) From the context, it sounds like the verse is talking about being full of joy, not full of deity. 2) It also sounds a lot like John 10:30 (I and the Father are one). And every LDS I've talked to has always told me that it means "one in purpose."

[Bob Betts]

Dear Bob,

Thanks for your reply. Let me make sure I understand your answer. I read you as saying that if "Preach My Gospel" had clarified that it was talking only about *mortal* priesthood holders on the earth, then you would see no contradiction. Is that right?

If so, I would recommend to you that perhaps the manual could have been a bit more clear.

I'm going to assume that LDS manuals are carefully written, edited and screened by LDS leadership for accuracy of doctrine. I know that I have always heard from TBMs that there was a complete apostasy of priesthood keys and authority. That's almost verbatim what the manual says. So, I'm still left with the same dilemma, as before. But, out of curiousity, how would you word the manuel differently, in order to make it "a bit more clear"?

But, on the other hand, there are always "special cases" that are not always appropriate to bring to the attention of investigators of the gospel. (Algebra->calculus->differential geometry, and all that)

The four priesthood holders are the special cases, I guess is what you're saying. Nevertheless, they being the case, don't YOU see the contradiction?

Thank you for your continued politeness and friendliness.

[Tsuzuki]

[Bob Betts]

Further, in verse 23, it is confirmed that the three priesthood-holding Nephites were busy building up the church:

"And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the gospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of that generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus."

The dates at the bottom of these pages is A.D. 34-35.

1. Yes, they functioned in their callings and ministry to that Nephite generation, but one cannot limit this

to a 2 year period, if that is what you were thinking.

No, that's not what I'm thinking. I'm building the case that the four used their power and priesthood keys of Christ's ministry throughout and beyond the time the LDS church claims the apostasy began, starting in A.D. 34-35. So, you are correct that their callings and ministry was not limited to a two year period, since Christ's promise to them all was that they would continue until His return.

Again, following a time when the Jews and Gentiles shall know them not, then

"29 it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them."

They will do great and Marvelous works, even among the Gentiles (vs. 30-32). And, anyone who doesn't hearken unto their words, Christ will not receive at the last day (vs. 34-35).

1. There is no timeline for the prophesied ministry of the 3 Nephites, after the present generation had

passed away. The works they do shall be done before the second coming of the Lord. (verse 31)

But, there are markers of when they were ministering. The only indication of stopage, was when the "beloved disciples" were taken away from the land where the wickedness was (between 322-326). Yet their calling was to yet go "unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them." How many souls would they bring unto Jesus? "Many souls." How? "because of the convincing power of God which is in them."

2. It is not correct to say the Jews and Gentiles shall know them not. The scripture says that they will

not recognize the 3 Nephites. Whatever works they shall do will be done before the judgement day

(verse 32).

But, it also says, "30 And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good.

31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the great and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;

32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day." So, they WILL be able to show themselves, and they will great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them. Does this sound like apostasy, whereby the priesthood keys and authority were allegedly taken from the earth after the last Apostle's death? Not to me.

3. From verse 33 on, Mormon shifts his attention from the 3 disciples to consider parenthetically the ministry of Jesus and all those he has chosen and sent, which I interpret as any of the 12 Jerusalem apostles or 12 Nephite disciples and any other authorized apostle or prophet. In verse 36 he resumes his

discussion of the ministry of the 3 Nephites.

Aren't you supposed to be arguing against me? You're only agreeing with me that their was no aposatasy of authority and keys, making the manual incorrect for stating that they had been taken from the earth.

4. The correct statement would be, "anyone who doesn't hearken unto the words of Jesus or the words of those he has chosen and sent." This is a broader view of the authority of Jesus and his chosen ones and the responsibility of those who have rejected them, not just limited to the words of the 3 Nephites.

This is totally consistent with LDS doctrine and what is taught in the disputed section of PMG.

What did Christ promise them? What callings did He grant them? To never taste death, so that they could bring souls to Christ while the world shall stand. Just because there is a break in the action in the land of Zarahemla, has no affect on their power and keys of Christ's ministry. They were taken from the land of wickedness. But, Christ did not with draw his promises, nor did he take the keys and authority from the earth. There is no mention of a complete apostasy of authority. If one had occurred after the deaths of the Apostles, don't you think it would be recorded in the BoM, rather than the evidences that they were still ministering long beyond the deaths of the Apostles?

Now, in the land of Zarahemla, (Mormon 1:13) the beloved disciples were taken away because "wickedness did prevail," and their work "did cease because of the iniquity of the people." The date at the bottom of the page is A.D. 322. So, up until this date, they were still ministering.

OK.

In the final BoM account of those "disciples of Jesus," Mormon and Moroni were ministered to by them:

Mormon 8:10 And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth.

11 But behold, my father and I have seen them, and they have ministered unto us."

The date at the bottom of the page is A.D. 401. So, up until this date, they were still ministering.

OK. However, one would have to agree that the scope and effectiveness of their ministry had been continuously diminished because of the unbelief of the Nephites who were in the throes of their own Great Apostacy.

But, don't you see? They never had their priesthood authority and keys taken away from them, and taken from the earth. Nowhere does it state or imply such a thing, which thus contradicts your manuals.

In light of the above Mormon scriptures, you have four priesthood holders bringing souls to Christ until He shall return, uniting people to the church who believed their preaching, and baptizing them in both water and the Holy Ghost, with known visitations of them as late as 401 A.D., exercizing their ministerial authority.

1. It is not known what John was doing, because there is no record of his ministry, like Mormon had made

of the 3 Nephites. I look forward to the day when a full account is given of all 4.

Yes, it IS known what John and the three were doing. I don't know how you can say this, when Jesus clearly spelled out their callings, in both D&C 7 and 3 Nephi 28.

2. The ministry of the 3 Nephites diminished continually over many years as the Nephite society descended into chaos. At the end, only 2 Nephites received of their ministrations.

But, they never had their priesthood authority and keys taken away from them, and taken from the earth. You and everyone else keep talking about what they did or didn't do, and that their were breaks because of wickedness. But, you fail to see that the point is, through it all, they never had their priesthood authority and keys taken away from them, and taken from the earth. Therefore the manuals are wrong.

3. Their works will conclude at the day of judgement. There's still much to be done. {EDIT}

But, they never had their priesthood authority and keys taken away from them, and taken from the earth.

So, how can Preach My Gospel claim that, "With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth"? That's not the story I'm getting from the LDS scriptures.

1. Neither John nor the 3 Nephites exercised {EDIT} functioning keys of presidency after the respective apostacies. The church could not and did not continue to function properly because they did not confer these keys on any successors. They had no successors because they were translated beings, and translated beings do not preside over the earthly church.

But, they never had their priesthood authority and keys taken away from them, and taken from the earth.

2. The restoration of the presiding keys to Joseph Smith by Peter, James, and John is totally consistent with the scriptures and the PMG quote that you are disputing.

An entirely different matter. There was no complete apostasy of authority, because the four never had their priesthood authority and keys taken away from them, and taken from the earth.

3. The story you are not getting (which you have made obvious) is that there is a difference between the ministry of these 4 disciples and what they were actually authorized to do, which they did magnificently, and what you think they should have done. This is your problem, not the scriptures' nor PMG's.

It has never been a matter of what they should have done, for me, but about the fact that they did something with the priesthood authority and keys which Christ gave them, and they never had it taken away. So, the priesthood keys and authority could NOT have been taken from the earth, making the manuals wrong because a complete apostasy never happened according to the LDS scriptures.

[Anijen]

Bob, you have lost this debate, stop the CPR, the mouth to mouth your not going to breath to life into this dead horse.

You have been answered multiple times, it is to the point of ad nauseam. Go over and read all the answers given to you. Or to make it short go to the brilliant post by Deborah #19 I will even link it for you here.

[consiglieri]

Having been as polite and hospitable in my responses as I possible could be, I can only presume that Mr. Betts refuses to respond to my post because it eviscerates his argument.

And by the way, just as a postscript, your arguments should probably not be based on pitting LDS scripture against an LDS manual. If I thought one or the other were in error, it would be the manual; and this would not be the first time that I disagreed with something that was written in an official LDS manual.

We have that right, as Latter-day Christians.

Or didn't you know that?

I mean, it's not the Watchtower Society, man!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bob Betts]

Then, are you telling me that before all the Apostles were dead, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from (or OFF) the earth?

Bob Betts,

Nice try. I am saying that since John (at least until the time of Joseph Smith) had not died, someone on the earth had them. They were not OFF the earth, but taken (or hid) FROM it.

I don't accept your interpretation that the authority and keys were hidden. Since the four were using them, which would mean that people's live were obviously affected by them, where were they "hid"? The fact that the manuals refer to the authority an keys were "taken from the earth," I am not led to conclude by that wording, that the authority and keys were still on the earth, but hid. I'm not buying it. "Taken from the earth" means they were no longer on the earth. The word "hid" is nowhere implied in the terminology.

Yet, Christ promised the four that they would use them, while the world shall stand, when He granted them the power and keys of His ministry.

Oh, really? And I assume he also left with them detailed instructions of what to do when? Iâ??m really, very interested in seeing this document.

Overlooking your sarcasm, I've gone over it and over it. Their callings are stated by Christ in both passages. I need not repeat them. Read the passages.

Again, considering John restored the keys to Joseph Smith, I very much consider this as â??having used them.â?

Good. Then the authority and keys were never taken from the earth, since they were still here being used.

May I also emphasize the importance of â??keys,â? vs. â??key.â? There is no reason to believe that using one of these metaphoric keys is to necessitate the use of them all. Your confounding terms, brother.

Then you are left to believe that Christ gave them the power and "keys of His ministry, without the intention of their using them. That doesn't sound reasonable to me. If they were using what Christ gave them to use, then the power and "keys" were never taken from the earth.

Precisely. Which means the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were NOT taken from (or OFF) the earth.

If youâ??re going to quote us, then be honest about it. This â??from (or OFF),â? is turning into a blatant illustration of disingenuousness. They are explicitly different terms, no matter how much to conflate them and twist them through purposeful proof-text.

I agree that they are different terms, of course. But, "taken from" does not imply "hid." I can take something from you without hiding it from you. If the four were using the power and keys of Christ's ministry on the earth, it would be blatantly manifest. Not hid.

More precisely, that because they were out there, the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were NOT taken from (or OFF) the earth. Thus, the LDS manuals contradict the alleged facts surrounding the priesthood activities of the four, who were given power and the keys of Christ's ministry, until His return (D&C 7:7).

NO! Because â??fromâ? and â??OFFâ? are completely diverse! They are distinctly different! You canâ??t mash two words together for your presumptive thesis and declare it soâ?¦youâ??re wrong! Fundamentally, from a linguistic standpoint, your interpretation is wrong. Youâ??ve misquoted the manual, and unfairly applied a false test to it. Your analysis is simply, dead, wrongâ?¦and that has NOTHING to do with religion.

1) I have accurately quoted the manual, and never diverted from the verbatim quote. You've falsely accuse me. 2) You're the one who wants me to believe that "taken from the earth" doesn't mean "OFF." You want me to accept your interprestation of "taken from" to mean "hid." I don't. It doesn't make any sense to me, for the reasons I've already given. I believe you are wrong.

According to Christ's callings on the four (who were members and leaders), and your church's belief that they're around today, they never distanced themselves from the church, and they always held the keys. Since those four didn't die, and they held and used the priesthood keys and priesthood authority, then the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were still on the earth.

And this is an amazing revelationâ?¦.why? The church is an organization,

That's YOUR belief. The Church is a living body of all true believers Jesus Christ, according to the NT. It is a living organism. It is Christ's "body." It is wherever two or three are gathered in His name. It is scattered over the whole earth.

and via the apostasy, it collapsed. It was no moreâ?¦nada, nill, zippo (as far as our records can tell).

What records? The BoM doesn't even mention an apostasy around 100 A.D. Nor did Christ or any of His Apostles mention that an apostasy of authority and priesthood keys, was imminent after their deaths.

That doesnâ??t mean that John could stay alive by his lonesome! Let us remember, that the church is the body of Christ in all its members. Take away the members except the big toe, and all youâ??ve got is a big toe, yet a big toe doth a body not make.

Which is why the idea of an apostasy is not viable. Christ didn't form His "body" just so that it would become useless in less than a century.

The part that, 1) though Christ gave the power and keys of His ministry to be used until His return, and

And they can hold it and use it, again and again, in isolated instances. Thereâ??s was not to grow the church but to minister to isolated groups.

The BoM text doesn't support this statement.

2) though they were using that power and those keys to bring souls to Christ, "uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost," which they were promised by Christ that they would do until His return,

So? And they did those for multiple, hundreds of years before the Nephites were wiped out. Whatâ??s the big deal?

The big deal is, the D&C and BoM texts tell us that they would use their power and keys of Christ's ministry while the world shall stand. And, that they were not isolated to the Western Hemisphere. They were to go "unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them."

Apparently the post was cut off due to the word limit. Sorry.

[Zeta-Flux]

I'm going to assume that LDS manuals are carefully written, edited and screened by LDS leadership for accuracy of doctrine. I know that I have always heard from TBMs that there was a complete apostasy of priesthood keys and authority. That's almost verbatim what the manual says. So, I'm still left with the same dilemma, as before. But, out of curiousity, how would you word the manuel differently, in order to make it "a bit more clear"?

I am absolutely sure that they screened "Preach My Gospel" for accuracy, so I agree with you there. And I too have always heard from TBM's that there was a complete apostasy of priesthood keys and authority. And I agree with you that that is exactly what the manual says. The difference, I think, between how we read it is that it has always been my understanding that this universal apostasy was implicitly limited to mortal beings on this planet. This limitation is usually not made explicit.

So, for example, I believe that Jesus Christ, and all other resurrected beings who held keys, continued to do so, in heaven. I believe they could continue to visit the earth, whenever appropriate. I believe that there were perhaps some angels and/or translated (or, if you prefer, transfigured) beings on or near the earth who continued to hold the keys. However, among *mortals* the keys were lost.

Perhaps to give an analogy, the scriptures talk about God putting all things under himself. Paul, later, says [excuse me for paraphrasing] that God Himself is clearly excepted from the statement. Sometimes statements have implicit assumptions that can be made explicit, but do not always need to be so. So, for me, the manual is implicitly talking about mortal beings and the church among mortals; but this implicit assumption could have been made more clear (although there are negatives to making all assumptions clear, all the time, so I am not pretending to tell the General Authorities that this clarification *should* take place).

The four priesthood holders are the special cases, I guess is what you're saying. Nevertheless, they being the case, don't YOU see the contradiction?

Thank you for your continued politeness and friendliness.

I see a contradiction if one doesn't implicitly assume that the universal apostasy is limited to mortal beings, yes.

And you are welcome.

Best wishes,

Zeta-Flux

[Lightbearer]

So you insist on saying that John and the three nephites were not "taken from the earth." Just because it says they would not die, does not mean they remained the whole time on the earth. Also Peter and James and John had the keys and gave them to Joseph and Oliver in 1829. You hold on to this arguement even after your theory has been disproven. Can you point to a Church organization where John and the three nephites have ministered after the apostacy? So how did John testify before all nations and before kings?...it is called the book of Revelation in the Bible.