Bikini's

[Zoidberg]

Awww...Happy Anniversary!!!!!!! (and congrats!)

Ditto.

[Lamanite]

Ditto.

I've really enjoyed this thread. This has elicited REAL responses from people. I don't think meso american glyphs help me to be much of a Christian, and those are the types of things we often discuss. But, this type of discussion is raw and honest and if we allow our vulnerabilities to come out it is something that can truly make us better people.

If I'm really going to get honest I would tell you that- I can be around girls in bikini's and be just fine. I think what bothered me the most about her was how attracted I was to this particular person, and it was easier to blame her for immodesty than to just realize I'm attracted to her, that it is normal, and that as long as it doesn't go any further all is well.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Awww...Happy Anniversary!!!!!!! (and congrats!)

Oh shoot I should have mentioned that yester day was my 4 year anniversary.

BTW congrats man.

[katherine the great]

I think what bothered me the most about her was how attracted I was to this particular person, and it was easier to blame her for immodesty than to just realize I'm attracted to her, that it is normal, and that as long as it doesn't go any further all is well.

Now, hold that thought, and lavish Mrs. Lamanite with all the love and fluffy things you can think of tonight!

[Lamanite]

Now, hold that thought, and lavish Mrs. Lamanite with all the love and fluffy things you can think of tonight!

Is a two carot Ruby(her birth stone) surrounded by white sapphires in a platinum setting fluffy enough? I love her more than I have words to express. That is why this bothered me. I don't necessarily want those feelings. I want only to feel after my beautiful bride.

[cartoon bluejay]

This statement almost made me cry. On the contrary, you are who I look at and see the most beauty(my wife has some stretch marks from our 4 kids and I think they are cute). You are the women with capri suns and sandwiches and a gigantic beach bag full of floaties and hair pulled back into a pony and there still exists beauty on both the physical and internal levels. I am never repulsed or experience revulsion by any women. (I was just charting the spectrum of emotions one could experience. My sister weighs 280lbs and she is gorgeous!)

I've had plenty of the string bikini's in my youth, and the one's I had had plenty of body and no brains, and even worse no spirituality or depth of character.

No thanks, I will stick with my wife of 10yrs (Today is may anniversary) and her sexy mom figure that includes panjama pants to bed more often than lingerie. And I like it that way!

First - let me say HAPPY ANNIVERSARY! Congratulations!

Lamanite - what you had to say was tender and touching. I'm sorry for ever implying that you would be repulsed by the women with the stretch marks and the "too tired" body. I should not have said it that way, I know it wasn't you - it was just in the thread and I responded to you. I've said it already - but I think it's great that you were attracted to her. The attraction says nothing about your intentions - and I don't think you should feel guilt for the attraction either. It's a normal, healthy response.

Thanks for starting this thread.

[Son]

Now, hold that thought, and lavish Mrs. Lamanite with all the love and fluffy things you can think of tonight!

[katherine the great]

Is a two carot Ruby(her birth stone) surrounded by white sapphires in a platinum setting fluffy enough?

SUPREMELY FLUFFY! (she's a lucky girl!)

[Pantsman]

Although I more or less agree with everything else you've said, I do have problems with that statement. It still falls short of objectification. A woman's body is not an art form, not a sex doll, not an "asset". A living, breathing body is a person.

If you see someone with stunning eyes you can appreciate thier eyes from a merely physical perspective. If I see a wman who is done up and looks attractive or is in a bikini and I take a glance and think "wow very pretty girl" that isn't objectifying the woman. It's appreciating her God giving beauty. The use of the phrase "sex doll" from what I've written is scandlous I think, I didn't say anything of that sort, maybe your mind is a bit in the gutter but I can find a woman pretty without sex doll fantasies running through my mind. I don't see what's wrong with finding a woman attractive from a mere artistic p.o.v.

You can't have it both ways in this discussion, on one hand you vehemently defend women wearing bikini's then slam men for "objectifying them" if they find the woman in question to look appealing in said bikini. Honestly it's completely unrealistic to take the position you've taken.

[cartoon bluejay]

I got this awesome book of art and posters from the exhibit called Design of Dissent. There is a poster there by Tan Kien Eng from Malaysia. There was a campaign going on in Malaysia to discourage violence against malaysian women. How were they planning on discouraging it? By urging women to be more modest. So Tan designed this poster to rebuff the campaign. All those of you who are accusing women of "advertising", being "disgusting", "lascivious", having no reason to wear what they wear or act the way the act should take a look at it and think about what it says. IMHO. http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/pwork/0506/050618.jpg

WOW!

[structurecop]

WOW!

Interesting perspective. It should be noted that Islam is the official religion in Malaysia.

[Pantsman]

It's interesting that you would consider a woman a bikini to be a "tempter." What, exactly, is she tempting you to do? Think naughty thoughts? I have a hard time believing men throughout the ages have been so consumed with womens' modesty if this is just about naughty thoughts. In order for a bikini clad female to be a tempter of any action worthy of the attention religions have been heaping on it, it must be a more serious sin than that. And it is. What makes an immodestly dressed female a "temptress" is the underlying assumption that the man being tempted can have her. The temptation is sex, not lust for sex.

But what if the man can't "have" her? Just because a woman is wearing a bikini or low-rise jeans doesn't mean she'll sleep with you. And here we find the true root of male preoccupation with female modesty. It is precisely becausein most cases he can't have her that her immodesty is so offensive. The unacceptable emotion here is not lust; it's frustration. The Muslim insanity that requires women to be covered head-to-toe in public stems from the same psychological roots that compel Mormon men to impose standards of modesty on LDS women. It all boils down to avoiding the frustration and lack of control men feel when they see something they can't have.

Playing devils advocate here but even if what you wrote is the case for what reason would a Christian woman want to frustrate her brothers in Christ? It still doesn't seem to justify the use of dressing immodestly.

[Zoidberg]

If you see someone with stunning eyes you can appreciate thier eyes from a merely physical perspective. If I see a wman who is done up and looks attractive or is in a bikini and I take a glance and think "wow very pretty girl" that isn't objectifying the woman. It's appreciateing her God giving beauty.

You can't have it both ways in this discussion, on one hand you vehemently defend women wearing bikini's then slam men for "objectifying them" if they find the woman in question to look appealing. Honestly it's completely unrealistic to take the position you've taken.

I'm fine with natural attraction. I'm familiar with evolutionary psychology. I'm not saying "don't be attracted to women". Why would I be saying that? All that is very good and wonderful.

Now let's take your eyes example. So you can appreciate the eyes out of the context of the person who is composed, in part, of those eyes, is it what you're saying? Now let's remove the eyeballs from the sockets and show them to you. Would you still be able to appreciate those eyes? Let's take that hot girl in a bikini. You are able to appreciate her body out of the context of her being composed, in part, of that body, aren't you? Well, what if she has a heart attack and collapses down on the beach and is now dead, and all you are looking at is a corpse. Even though now the body is dead, it looks the same as it did ten seconds ago, when the girl was alive. Would you still be able to appreciate that dead body the same?

What I'm saying is you shouldn't separate a living, breathing body from the person who is composed partially of that body. If you do, it's objectification. Hopefully, that's a good enough clarification.

[structurecop]

What I'm saying is you shouldn't separate a living, breathing body from the person who is composed partially of that body. If you do, it's objectification. Hopefully, that's a good enough clarification.

[Pantsman]

I'm fine with natural attraction. I'm familiar with evolutionary psychology. I'm not saying "don't be attracted to women". Why would I be saying that? All that is very good and wonderful.

Now let's take your eyes example. So you can appreciate the eyes out of the context of the person who is composed, in part, of those eyes, is it what you're saying? Now let's remove the eyeballs from the sockets and show them to you. Would you still be able to appreciate those eyes? Let's take that hot girl in a bikini. You are able to appreciate her body out of the context of her being composed, in part, of that body, aren't you? Well, what if she has a heart attack and collapses down on the beach and is now dead, and all you are looking at is a corpse. Even though now the body is dead, it looks the same as it did ten seconds ago, when the girl was alive. Would you still be able to appreciate that dead body the same?

What I'm saying is you shouldn't separate a living, breathing body from the person who is composed partially of that body. If you do, it's objectification. Hopefully, that's a good enough clarification.

You simply don't understand men at all is where I'll leave it...

[Zoidberg]

You simply don't understand men at all is where I'll leave it...

Yes, it's only through sheer luck and statistically improbable coincidence that I've been able to get one to marry me. Amazing!

[myleague]

Yes, it's only through sheer luck and statistically improbable coincidence that I've been able to get one to marry me. Amazing!

If understanding our partner was a prerequisite to having a relationship or getting married, all of us would be single. Just because I am a man doesn't mean my wife understands the male species, she understands me... to some degree. Female attraction isn't uniquely male and vice versa, we like what we like. Maybe OPer should buy his wife a nice bikini and call it good.

[Zoidberg]

If understanding our partner was a prerequisite to having a relationship or getting married, all of us would be single. Just because I am a man doesn't mean my wife understands the male species, she understands me... to some degree. Female attraction isn't uniquely male and vice versa, we like what we like. Maybe OPer should buy his wife a nice bikini and call it good.

Yes, that would be a good idea, IMHO ... I still stand by my assertion that a living body is inseparable from the person. You can think the person is completely immoral, stupid and shallow and be fascinated by their body, the way they move, the way their pupils dialate etc.. Or you can admire someone's intelligence and charity and yet think they are ugly as sin. That goes for both men and women. No one's body is an object while they are alive. "An art form" is a description of an object/construct. There are art installments that use living people, there are movies and theatre, but the message of those art forms cannot be conveyed by simply presenting to the viewer one or more of the human beings involved in the production without any clear idea of what they are supposed to be doing. Even if that's what it looks like, art is always filtered through the lens of the artist's vision. I guess religious people are more likely to think in these terms because to them, God is the designer of the body in the same way an artist is the designer of a painting. But from this perspective, just like a bunch of meaningless objects becomes art if organized by an artist, so does a bunch of organic matter becomes a person when organized by the Creator. A body without life is meaningless, just like a piece of marble without Michelangelo's chisel is meaningless.

[sixidahos]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bimbo

bim

[Zoidberg]

[Wearing a bikini doesn't mean a person has loose morals. It might be that he or she was raised differently. I personally feel awkward talking to someone in a bikini, but that's because I rarely go swimming. If I were exposed to it more often I would start to take it for granted in the same way that guys eventually got used to seeing a woman's calf in the late 1920s. At the time they were considered loose woman.

exactly.

[structurecop]

Wearing a bikini doesn't mean a person has loose morals. It might be that he or she was raised differently. I personally feel awkward talking to someone in a bikini, but that's because I rarely go swimming. If I were exposed to it more often I would start to take it for granted in the same way that guys eventually got used to seeing a woman's calf in the late 1920s. At the time they were considered loose woman.

I worked event security for a long time while I was a full-time student... after a short period being around a lot of scantily clad women there was no novelty about it. I just learned not to make judgments based on a person's dress and act like a professional. It's not that hard, really. Some here would be surprised that some of these women could actually carry on intelligent conversations, have read (and understood!) classical literature, are excellent musicians, and do all kinds of volunteer work. (the highlight of my career, I must admit, was meeting the GoDaddy girl).

[Jolard]

Modesty is purely cultural.

I grew up on Australian beaches, where at least half the women were topless. The ones with full bikinis on were the modest ones. I can't imagine many of you here on an Australian beach.

We are responsible for our own thoughts or actions. When we start talking about women needing to cover up to protect men from our baser selves, we are simply removing responsibility from men. It becomes too easy to blame our impure thoughts on the woman, and we get to remain pure ourselves.

The biggest concern I have about this is that it is a path that leads to Burkas and Burkinis. We generally dislike that aspect of culture, because of numerous reasons. To me those same reasons can apply to someone who wants to cover up women in any way.

Still not convinced it is cultural? What about the past vs the present. Seeing a woman's legs 150 years ago was considered racy. Garments covered ankle to wrist. So the early church member getting impure thoughts because the woman was showing her ankles was not to blame? It was the woman's fault? A woman in a now considered modest 1 piece swimsuit would have caused a riot.

I like looking at beautiful women as much as the rest of you. What I do with the things I see in my mind is up to me.

[Zoidberg]

Modesty is purely cultural.

I grew up on Australian beaches, where at least half the women were topless. The ones with full bikinis on were the modest ones. I can't imagine many of you here on an Australian beach.

We are responsible for our own thoughts or actions. When we start talking about women needing to cover up to protect men from our baser selves, we are simply removing responsibility from men. It becomes too easy to blame our impure thoughts on the woman, and we get to remain pure ourselves.

The biggest concern I have about this is that it is a path that leads to Burkas and Burkinis. We generally dislike that aspect of culture, because of numerous reasons. To me those same reasons can apply to someone who wants to cover up women in any way.

Still not convinced it is cultural? What about the past vs the present. Seeing a woman's legs 150 years ago was considered racy. Garments covered ankle to wrist. So the early church member getting impure thoughts because the woman was showing her ankles was not to blame? It was the woman's fault? A woman in a now considered modest 1 piece swimsuit would have caused a riot.

I like looking at beautiful women as much as the rest of you. What I do with the things I see in my mind is up to me.

Burkinis... can I use that?

[The Nehor]

Burkinis... can I use that?

Aren't those the bikinis made out of parka material/bearskin you see in Conan movies?

[Mighty Curelom]

What I'm saying is you shouldn't separate a living, breathing body from the person who is composed partially of that body. If you do, it's objectification. Hopefully, that's a good enough clarification.

I agree. However, this interpretation of objectification makes its occurrence vanishingly rare. How many girl-ogling lechers would find the same specimen equally arousing if she was dead? Even if the mind isn't at the top of the list of priorities, it's definitely on the list. The word "objectification," therefore, is of little use, since those actually guilty of objectifying women (necrophiliacs, guys who hump blow-up dolls) are actually an inconsequential minority.