Let Me Ask You Few Q's As A Skeptic

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

You just attacked everyone's belief in God. "Put not your trust in the flesh"...

Pa Pa

[Cold Steel]

A- There's really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions.

B- Why do we believe other peoples experiences when nothing of that sort ever happens to you?

C- Why miraculous things always so conveniently happen when you are not around to witness them?

D- Why an average person (like young Joseph Smith in his time) will not arise and lead the Church as it happened in the past?

E- Why should I not get any any answers in spiritual matters? when I get most of other answers in conventional ways?

F- Why should I be punished for not believing into something that I've never seen or experienced?

How do you people confront reality and still believe what you believe?

I have to admit that I feel crushed when I read postings like yours. It's so far removed from my own experiences that I scarcely know where to begin, well, other than the obvious: Korihor. "How do you know of [the] surety [of your prophecies]? Behold, you cannot know of things which you do not see; therefore you cannot know that there shall be a Christ." (Alma 30:14â??15) Or anything else for that matter.

Poor Korihor gets dumped on, but he's not the first one who ever made these observations. They're voiced in all ages among all peoples. The problem with Korihor is that he knew he was being deceived. Whether that realization was deep down or bubbling along the top, who knows? The same could be said of you. Only you know your thoughts and feelings.

A- There's really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions.

I'm not sure what you're saying, but whatever it is, it's flat out wrong. There are all sorts of things that we can't see or hear, yet we know that they are there and that they exist. We have telescopes, microscopes, sophisticated hearing devices. We even have German physicists and astrophysicists. We know about all sorts of things that we can't see, smell or feel. You can't feel many types of ionizing radiation, yet it will kill you just as quickly as a roaring fire. I recall one doctor from history who lost his medical lisence because he required his medical staff to wash their hands! After all, you can't be hurt by something you can't see, right?

But with certain devices or instruments, man can detect what was heretofore undetectable. The Holy Ghost, the Liahona, the Urim and Thummin, the Book of Mormon, angels, etc. -- all are devices God uses to communicate with man. Dr. Nibley recalled a conversation he had with a Muslim who wanted to know why God needed a Son. He explained that God doesn't really need anything, but that he uses various instruments we find necessary for salvation. Why does God need an angel, like Gabriel, who visited Muhammed; and why does He need a Book?

Regardless of what you know down deep, you know all the answers to the questions you pose. You just don't believe them. It's more of a failure to see things from that vantage point than your own. I can tell you that many Latter-day Saints can confidently say they do know by the instruments they've been given and which they have used -- and that these instruments are available to all.

[Kate]

Have you documented this meeting? (photos, voice recording, video?) If not, how could you prove to solo that it really happened?

Ha, you've got to be kidding. I certainly don't need proof and I feel sad for solo that he/she needs it. Miracles come after the faith. Everyone around me when it happened, heard the whole story and then watched it all unfold when these children were born...to the detail mind you, as well as details of their looks that are recognizable now that they are older. It has been truly amazing. I also had a dream that a sister in my ward had a baby girl...I was in the dream with her at the hospital holding my first girl as a baby. The thing is that she was not able to have children. However, I felt prompted to tell her about the dream. Six weeks later, she told me that she was pregnant and her doctor was shocked. She was six weeks along. We wondered all along why i was in the dream holding my first girl as a baby. Turns out she had her baby girl on the birthdate of my daughter. Too many things like this happen, to ever let me doubt. It's a wonderful thing believing...you should try it some time ;-)

[MorningStar]

Ha, you've got to be kidding. I certainly don't need proof and I feel sad for solo that he/she needs it. Miracles come after the faith. Everyone around me when it happened, heard the whole story and then watched it all unfold when these children were born...to the detail mind you, as well as details of their looks that are recognizable now that they are older. It has been truly amazing. I also had a dream that a sister in my ward had a baby girl...I was in the dream with her at the hospital holding my first girl as a baby. The thing is that she was not able to have children. However, I felt prompted to tell her about the dream. Six weeks later, she told me that she was pregnant and her doctor was shocked. She was six weeks along. We wondered all along why i was in the dream holding my first girl as a baby. Turns out she had her baby girl on the birthdate of my daughter. Too many things like this happen, to ever let me doubt. It's a wonderful thing believing...you should try it some time ;-)

That's so cool, Kate! A couple days before my cousin had her baby, I had a dream she had a boy and named him Zachary. I told my mom and when the baby was born, she said, "You're not going to believe this." I thought she was messing with me when she told me she really did name him Zachary.

[Kate]

That's so cool, Kate! A couple days before my cousin had her baby, I had a dream she had a boy and named him Zachary. I told my mom and when the baby was born, she said, "You're not going to believe this." I thought she was messing with me when she told me she really did name him Zachary.

That's awesome. I always tell someone when these things happen, so that when the time comes, no one thinks I'm crazy ;-)

[cdowis]

Instead of relying in spiritual payoffs which are so precarious and futile, I (unfortunately) have to put my faith in my SUV to get out of a calamity, A GPS, to guide me in Utah's harsh deserts, a phone which I can use in emergency since no prayer got me out of any trouble.

Apparently you are not familiar with our doctrine of self-sufficiency. I use both prayer and a SUV.

The fact is that none of us are any more special than anybody else, why should God save me and let hundred others starve and let them die by incredibly asinine ways.

Because they agreed to these conditions before coming to earth. It is a temporary situation, and we all accepted that this earth follows natural laws, and that Satan will rule it. But the rewards are eternal.

Why should I not get any any answers in spiritual matters? when I get most of other answers in conventional ways?

Why should I use an xray or MRI to see inside my body? Why can't I just use a flashlight or strong glasses?

Each requires the specific tool for the job. Prayer is necessary for contact in the spiritual realm.

Why should I be punished for not believing into something that I've never seen or experienced?

It's called natural consequences of our decisions. You yourself decide what path you will follow.

If you have not received the opportunity to receive and follow the truth in this life, you will have that opportunity in the next. But there is no "second chance" for those who deliberately turn their back on spiritual matters.

How do you people confront with reality and still believe what you believe?

I remember a cartoon in the New Yorker magazine. It showed two ants walking on a kitchen table. The caption said "Ant scientists explore the universe".

Our understanding of reality is similar to a fish's understanding of space exploration.

[Pantsman]

I cannot fathom how I once got baptized into LDS faith but I did and believed in it.

As the years slowly passed I figured out things.

I am reading your posts and thinking, why are they not able to use the same logic and deduce;

A- There's really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions.

B- Why do we believe other peoples experiences when nothing of that sort ever happens to you?

C-Why miraculous things always so conveniently happen when you are not around to witness them?

D-Why an average person (like young Joseph Smith in his time) will not arise and lead the Church as it happened in the past?

Instead of relying in spiritual payoffs which are so precarious and futile, I (unfortunately) have to put my faith in my SUV to get out of a calamity, A GPS, to guide me in Utah's harsh deserts, a phone which I can use in emergency since no prayer got me out of any trouble. The fact is that none of us are any more special than anybody else, why should God save me and let hundred others starve and let them die by incredibly asinine ways.

Why should I not get any any answers in spiritual matters? when I get most of other answers in conventional ways?

Why should I be punished for not believing into something that I've never seen or experienced?

How do you people confront with reality and still believe what you believe?

Doing the opposite of what you described is the very definition of faith. Belief without any proof. I myself have never witnessed a miracle, nor do I typically believe in them, even the ones the Catholic Church deems "worthy" of belief. They are "private revelations" and should remain that way. God has never spoken to me, Jesus isn't my buddy, we do not watch the football game together, and I talk and He doesn't talk back, hopefully He listens... But under pains of death I wouldn't deny Him. And I wholeheartedly believe in God and His son. That's what faith is.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

That's awesome. I always tell someone when these things happen, so that when the time comes, no one thinks I'm crazy ;-)

Now you guys got me all thinking here. Befor I had my number 2 and 3 kids. I had a dream and some very strong impressions that childs number 2 was really child number 3 as well. The nice things is twins dont run in either family. We went to the doctor for the ultra sound, and I told my wife that I think there are 2 kids in there. She laughed and said I hope not. Well lo and behold there were to Kids in there. We had a boy and a girl. So when they were born we had 3 kids all under 2. It was quite nice. This was last year too.

[thesometimesaint]

Mola Ram Suda Ram:

Three kids in their "Terrible Two's" at one time. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Enjoy.

[moreholinessgiveme]

I cannot fathom how I once got baptized into LDS faith but I did and believed in it.

As the years slowly passed I figured out things.

I am reading your posts and thinking, why are they not able to use the same logic and deduce;

A- There's really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions.

By "bodily perceptions" I take it you mean the 5 senses?

If that is the case, I disagree. But the experience is extra-rational, not rational or irrational.

I received a witness that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Nobody else was around. I was alone. What I felt was powerful and unmistakable. So, I cannot agree that there is "really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions."

B- Why do we believe other peoples experiences when nothing of that sort ever happens to you?

Well things "of that sort" have happened to me.

C-Why miraculous things always so conveniently happen when you are not around to witness them?

I don't think the Children of Israel witnessing the parting of the Red Sea would agree with you.

D-Why an average person (like young Joseph Smith in his time) will not arise and lead the Church as it happened in the past?

Huh?

Instead of relying in spiritual payoffs which are so precarious and futile, I (unfortunately) have to put my faith in my SUV to get out of a calamity, A GPS, to guide me in Utah's harsh deserts, a phone which I can use in emergency since no prayer got me out of any trouble. The fact is that none of us are any more special than anybody else, why should God save me and let hundred others starve and let them die by incredibly asinine ways.

It can be hard to witness the suffering of others. Suffering without perspective is just suffering. Suffering with an eye single to the glory of God sanctifies. None of us were ever promised a FAIR or EASY time of it. We were promised the opposite. That this would be a period of testing and trial. Remember, Jesus Christ suffered for our sins, pain, weaknesses -- all of it. Was that FAIR? Was it EASY for Him? I would say, of course not. But He gladly bore the burden. We should take a lesson from that, and bear our own burdens with dignity. Something to think about.

Why should I not get any any answers in spiritual matters? when I get most of other answers in conventional ways?

There are answers that can come to you beyond conventional means, but you have to seek them diligently and not murmur.

Why should I be punished for not believing into something that I've never seen or experienced?

I'm not sure what you mean by being punished.

How do you people confront with reality and still believe what you believe?

That's just it. Part of my reality IS the belief in the existence of God. A God who has compassion for me. A God who answers my prayers -- not always how I'd like or imagined, but He always answers them. Remember, a valid answer to a prayer is a solid "NO". Are we humble enough to accept a "NO" ?

[spinner]

Now you guys got me all thinking here. Befor I had my number 2 and 3 kids. I had a dream and some very strong impressions that childs number 2 was really child number 3 as well. The nice things is twins dont run in either family. We went to the doctor for the ultra sound, and I told my wife that I think there are 2 kids in there. She laughed and said I hope not. Well lo and behold there were to Kids in there. We had a boy and a girl. So when they were born we had 3 kids all under 2. It was quite nice. This was last year too.

In response to the experiences of Kate, Morningstar and Mola Ram Suda Ram, I've got to say I've never been terribly impressed by stories of this sort as proof. I am of course very happy for the wonderful events that happened in your lives and I don't say this to belittle your experiences. However, as proof of anything, I don't find these examples terribly convincing merely because humans are so susceptible to confirmation bias and selective recall.

Consider, for example, a young man who has this wild thought one morning while shaving and says to himself "today I'm going to meet the person I'm going to marry." Now, if the day passes without incident, the random thought from the morning is either discounted as simply a wandering of the mind or wishful thinking and quickly forgotten. Suppose, however, on that day he really really does meet the person he ends up marrying--suddenly the random thought seems nothing short of a revelation. Trouble is, every day might be filled with dozens of these random thoughts. Almost all are misses, forgotten and left behind almost as quickly as they came to us. The hits, however, make a deep impression, and for the believer, rather than being viewed as coincidence, they are thought to be revelations.

In my opinion, the only way a person could really gauge whether they were receiving some sort of revelation would be to, over a period of time, record all the impressions they have. Include details of the impression such as the strength of the impression, the exact nature of the predicted event and the likelihood of such an event happening merely by chance. Later on, check back and see which of the predicted events happened. What proportion of them occurred? If one did occur, did it happen as predicted or did the actual event vary significantly from what you had predicted? And finally, what were the odds of the event happening and how difficult would the event have been to predict without divine foreknowledge? (i.e., prophesying a sunrise doesn't count)

My guess is that at the end of the day, even someone who considered themself to be very in touch 'the spirit' would probably not fare very well overall. They would see that most of their predictions never happened, the ones that did happen usually did not occur quite as predicted and that many of the ones that did happen as predicted would have been fairly easy to predict in any case.

Of course, most people don't put their belief through such a clinical evaluation. However, without such a process, I never feel particularly impressed when a person pulls out a single instance of predicting a supposedly unpredictable event because they never mention (and probably don't even remember) their predictions that missed.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ram:

Three kids in their "Terrible Two's" at one time. Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Enjoy.

Well My oldest will be 3 when the twins are 2 but man it will/ is tough. Its fun though at the same time. Oh and I just got done with my oldest playing the poo Picaso game. Cold showers after that helped here not try to make are with poo.

In response to the experiences of Kate, Morningstar and Mola Ram Suda Ram, I've got to say I've never been terribly impressed by stories of this sort as proof. I am of course very happy for the wonderful events that happened in your lives and I don't say this to belittle your experiences. However, as proof of anything, I don't find these examples terribly convincing merely because humans are so susceptible to confirmation bias and selective recall.

Consider, for example, a young man who has this wild thought one morning while shaving and says to himself "today I'm going to meet the person I'm going to marry." Now, if the day passes without incident, the random thought from the morning is either discounted as simply a wandering of the mind or wishful thinking and quickly forgotten. Suppose, however, on that day he really really does meet the person he ends up marrying--suddenly the random thought seems nothing short of a revelation. Trouble is, every day might be filled with dozens of these random thoughts. Almost all are misses, forgotten and left behind almost as quickly as they came to us. The hits, however, make a deep impression, and for the believer, rather than being viewed as coincidence, they are thought to be revelations.

In my opinion, the only way a person could really gauge whether they were receiving some sort of revelation would be to, over a period of time, record all the impressions they have. Include details of the impression such as the strength of the impression, the exact nature of the predicted event and the likelihood of such an event happening merely by chance. Later on, check back and see which of the predicted events happened. What proportion of them occurred? If one did occur, did it happen as predicted or did the actual event vary significantly from what you had predicted? And finally, what were the odds of the event happening and how difficult would the event have been to predict without divine foreknowledge? (i.e., prophesying a sunrise doesn't count)

My guess is that at the end of the day, even someone who considered themself to be very in touch 'the spirit' would probably not fare very well overall. They would see that most of their predictions never happened, the ones that did happen usually did not occur quite as predicted and that many of the ones that did happen as predicted would have been fairly easy to predict in any case.

Of course, most people don't put their belief through such a clinical evaluation. However, without such a process, I never feel particularly impressed when a person pulls out a single instance of predicting a supposedly unpredictable event because they never mention (and probably don't even remember) their predictions that missed.

Proof is in the eye of the beholder, yes? Am I claiming some great revelation? Or some miricale? I believe it was given me of God and it was good. That is all I can say.

I guess all I can say too is that I have been aware of when I thought something and when it truly was of God. I have done much testing and experimenting with this. I actually think I have become somewhat accurate at it. Am I perfect? No. There is distinct difrences of feeling from my self to God's. What does salt taste like? Assume I have never tasted it.

[thesometimesaint]

Mola Ram Suda Ram:

Good luck. You'll need it. Just wait till the "Frightful Fours". Then comes kindergarten and then they seem to settle down till the "Teens". My kids are in their thirty's now, and I enjoyed it all.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ram:

Good luck. You'll need it. Just wait till the "Frightful Fours". Then comes kindergarten and then they seem to settle down till the "Teens". My kids are in their thirty's now, and I enjoyed it all.

Yes. I can hardley wait till the smooth sailing part. The teenage years will be total hell. Ill manage Im sure.

Thanks for the heads up though.

[Kate]

In response to the experiences of Kate, Morningstar and Mola Ram Suda Ram, I've got to say I've never been terribly impressed by stories of this sort as proof. I am of course very happy for the wonderful events that happened in your lives and I don't say this to belittle your experiences. However, as proof of anything, I don't find these examples terribly convincing merely because humans are so susceptible to confirmation bias and selective recall.

Consider, for example, a young man who has this wild thought one morning while shaving and says to himself "today I'm going to meet the person I'm going to marry." Now, if the day passes without incident, the random thought from the morning is either discounted as simply a wandering of the mind or wishful thinking and quickly forgotten. Suppose, however, on that day he really really does meet the person he ends up marrying--suddenly the random thought seems nothing short of a revelation. Trouble is, every day might be filled with dozens of these random thoughts. Almost all are misses, forgotten and left behind almost as quickly as they came to us. The hits, however, make a deep impression, and for the believer, rather than being viewed as coincidence, they are thought to be revelations.

In my opinion, the only way a person could really gauge whether they were receiving some sort of revelation would be to, over a period of time, record all the impressions they have. Include details of the impression such as the strength of the impression, the exact nature of the predicted event and the likelihood of such an event happening merely by chance. Later on, check back and see which of the predicted events happened. What proportion of them occurred? If one did occur, did it happen as predicted or did the actual event vary significantly from what you had predicted? And finally, what were the odds of the event happening and how difficult would the event have been to predict without divine foreknowledge? (i.e., prophesying a sunrise doesn't count)

My guess is that at the end of the day, even someone who considered themself to be very in touch 'the spirit' would probably not fare very well overall. They would see that most of their predictions never happened, the ones that did happen usually did not occur quite as predicted and that many of the ones that did happen as predicted would have been fairly easy to predict in any case.

Of course, most people don't put their belief through such a clinical evaluation. However, without such a process, I never feel particularly impressed when a person pulls out a single instance of predicting a supposedly unpredictable event because they never mention (and probably don't even remember) their predictions that missed.

First off, I have to say, I have never said that I was someone who predicts the future. If someone claims to have that ability, then of course they should put all their predictions to the test. But for you to apply that to spiritual experiences is rather silly. Yes I have had many spiritual experiences, most of which I would not share online. I used those two examples to show that God, miracles, a preexistance, etc. exist. Those two experiences were not selective recall or bias. Possibly because you have not experienced such, you would not be able to comprehend it. Therefore, it's easier for you to discredit it than to believe it. That's ok. Also, being in the presence of two children (who were not yet born, and it was not a dream, I was fully awake) is not a fleeting thought or impression.

Nevertheless, if you choose not to believe, then you will never know for yourself I guess, because, like I said, faith preceeds the miracle.

~Kate

[MorningStar]

First off, I have to say, I have never said that I was someone who predicts the future. If someone claims to have that ability, then of course they should put all their predictions to the test. But for you to apply that to spiritual experiences is rather silly. Yes I have had many spiritual experiences, most of which I would not share online. I used those two examples to show that God, miracles, a preexistance, etc. exist. Those two experiences were not selective recall or bias. Possibly because you have not experienced such, you would not be able to comprehend it. Therefore, it's easier for you to discredit it than to believe it. That's ok. Also, being in the presence of two children (who were not yet born, and it was not a dream, I was fully awake) is not a fleeting thought or impression.

Nevertheless, if you choose not to believe, then you will never know for yourself I guess, because, like I said, faith preceeds the miracle.

~Kate

Kate, are you my twin?

I don't share experiences to prove anything, but those experiences are my personal proof and I don't expect anyone to believe them. Some people will never appreciate coincidences for what they really are and want something bigger.

[Kate]

Kate, are you my twin?

I don't share experiences to prove anything, but those experiences are my personal proof and I don't expect anyone to believe them. Some people will never appreciate coincidences for what they really are and want something bigger.

[solomarineris]

Because they agreed to these conditions before coming to earth. It is a temporary situation, and we all accepted that this earth follows natural laws, and that Satan will rule it. But the rewards are eternal.

I guarantee you that I did not agree on anything before I was born, neither did you since you did not exist, unless you show me some proof

Each requires the specific tool for the job. Prayer is necessary for contact in the spiritual realm.

There are no tools to discern so far to prove "Spritual Realm", taking your word wpould be futile, since it would prove absolutely nothing.

If you have not received the opportunity to receive and follow the truth in this life, you will have that opportunity in the next. But there is no "second chance" for those who deliberately turn their back on spiritual matters.

I don't believe this premise ever, it is sad when you think that you blew opportunities in this life that you will inherit in next, there is no such thing as "next", I am confident in saying this because there is not a single soul who came back and reported, that he/she had a nice stay there, except NDE incidents.

Our understanding of reality is similar to a fish's understanding of space exploration.

I am truly sorry you feel that way. I quite understand and visualize the marvels of Universe, I even enjoy Star Trek and reading Sci-Fi books. My imagination is there

Cold Steel

I have to admit that I feel crushed when I read postings like yours. It's so far removed from my own experiences that I scarcely know where to begin, well, other than the obvious: Korihor. "How do you know of [the] surety [of your prophecies]? Behold, you cannot know of things which you do not see; therefore you cannot know that there shall be a Christ." (Alma 30:14â??15) Or anything else for that matter.

Comeon, Cold Steel be not crushed.

People like us could make Korihor look like a ******-cat. The reason that I don't believe Korihor never existed is, because I probably deny the validity of God/Christ more heartily than him at times. What happens to me? Nothing...I mean I did pray God to take me away since He let 90% of my God-fearing Christian Ancestors slaughtered mercilessly under the Sword of Islam. What was he going to do? let another Infidel destroyed? I guess he didn't muster enough courage to wipe out the last of my Tribe.

But under pains of death I wouldn't deny Him. And I wholeheartedly believe in God and His son. That's what faith is.

Nice try, pantsman, I don't envy or abhor what you hold so sacred. I respect it. My original Q. was to learn how you guys keep faith, I appreciate all of your patience to reply.

[T-Shirt]

I respect it.

You keep saying this. You have a very unusual way of showing respect. Your words make it very hard to recognize.

My best,

T-Shirt

[spinner]

Proof is in the eye of the beholder, yes? Am I claiming some great revelation? Or some miricale? I believe it was given me of God and it was good. That is all I can say.

Fair enough, maybe I was interpreting your post to mean more than you meant it to. My response was intended to be more general, as I have heard many people call upon experiences such as yours as 'proof' of divine communication.

I guess all I can say too is that I have been aware of when I thought something and when it truly was of God. I have done much testing and experimenting with this. I actually think I have become somewhat accurate at it. Am I perfect? No. There is distinct difrences of feeling from my self to God's. What does salt taste like? Assume I have never tasted it.

The 'have you tasted salt' question is such a tired chestnut. The difficulty in describing the taste of salt is precisely because its taste is such a mundane yet singularly unique thing that merely turning the noun into an adjective, 'salty', already covers the entire experience so completely that no further verbalization is needed. The problem with 'the spirit', on the other hand, is its supposed changeable and immeasurable quality. It is, in a sense, all things to all people, each person experiences it differently. There is no description of 'the spirit' not because it is so simple as to need none, but quite the opposite, it is so complex, frangible and inscrutable that no good description of it can be made with any profusion of words.

Unless and until a person finds and puts into practice some objective, verifiable way of testing if they do receive reliable communication, our feeble minds remain too susceptible to finding confirmation and spotting patterns in places it is highly possible that none really exist.

[Kate]

I guarantee you that I did not agree on anything before I was born, neither did you since you did not exist, unless you show me some proof

There are no tools to discern so far to prove "Spritual Realm", taking your word wpould be futile, since it would prove absolutely nothing.

I don't believe this premise ever, it is sad when you think that you blew opportunities in this life that you will inherit in next, there is no such thing as "next", I am confident in saying this because there is not a single soul who came back and reported, that he/she had a nice stay there, except NDE incidents.

I am truly sorry you feel that way. I quite understand and visualize the marvels of Universe, I even enjoy Star Trek and reading Sci-Fi books. My imagination is there

Comeon, Cold Steel be not crushed.

People like us could make Korihor look like a ******-cat. The reason that I don't believe Korihor never existed is, because I probably deny the validity of God/Christ more heartily than him at times. What happens to me? Nothing...I mean I did pray God to take me away since He let 90% of my God-fearing Christian Ancestors slaughtered mercilessly under the Sword of Islam. What was he going to do? let another Infidel destroyed? I guess he didn't muster enough courage to wipe out the last of my Tribe.

Nice try, pantsman, I don't envy or abhor what you hold so sacred. I respect it. My original Q. was to learn how you guys keep faith, I appreciate all of your patience to reply.

I am sad for you that you have felt so much pain in your life. I am also sad that you are in the mindset that you are. We have replied, but you are definitely entitled to your opinion. But I would ask, where is your proof that NDEs or OBEs, miracles, or any other spiritual thing do NOT exist. I know you cannot prove that I have not seen what I have seen. No one has been able to disprove anything spiritual, though many have tried to give explainations, they have never had proof. So I turn the tables on you and say, show your proof! Not just your opinion about why God would allow things to happen, but the actual proof that you ask of us.

[solomarineris]

I am sad for you that you have felt so much pain in your life. I am also sad that you are in the mindset that you are. We have replied, but you are definitely entitled to your opinion. But I would ask, where is your proof that NDEs or OBEs, miracles, or any other spiritual thing do NOT exist. I know you cannot prove that I have not seen what I have seen. No one has been able to disprove anything spiritual, though many have tried to give explainations, they have never had proof. So I turn the tables on you and say, show your proof! Not just your opinion about why God would allow things to happen, but the actual proof that you ask of us.

Kate,

Thanks for your kind words. My pain is no less or more of most humans live today.

Actually my mindset probably was shaped long before CroMagnons appeared first in Europe and drew those mysterious animal paintings in Lascheux Cave. Through their genes I carry this curse of "uncertainity", always on the looking for the "unexpected".

Actually "The Proof" you or anybody is looking for is within you. There's really nothing else. You perceive it the way you see, and the way you feel. It is very pointless to tell someone that you witnessed so many personal experiences, miracles which warrants you to believe what You believe.

And I say, If I were to tell you the story of my life I could recount no less than few dozens of miracles.

I cannot not show you any proof, you cannot see any proof of "Enthrophy", it is just there, because you perceive the universe the way you do and nobody can change that.

[juliann]

Of course, most people don't put their belief through such a clinical evaluation. However, without such a process, I never feel particularly impressed when a person pulls out a single instance of predicting a supposedly unpredictable event because they never mention (and probably don't even remember) their predictions that missed.

It is much more likely that people aren't going to tell you anything but trivial examples. I certainly wouldn't, there are experiences I would not even speak of in church meetings. Thus, you are engaging in circular reasoning.

[juliann]

And I say, If I were to tell you the story of my life I could recount no less than few dozens of miracles.

And that is what I don't understand...why would you let that go? This is where I think belief becomes a choice. I do not want a life without my beliefs and the comfort it gives me. There is enough there to give me reason to continue in belief as unbelief. It does take a lot of persistance and determination, though (not that you aren't persistant and determined)

[spinner]

It is much more likely that people aren't going to tell you anything but trivial examples. I certainly wouldn't, there are experiences I would not even speak of in church meetings. Thus, you are engaging in circular reasoning.

Juliann,

Where is the circularity? Whether or not the people tell me all of their experiences does not affect whether such people suffer from confirmation bias and its cousin selective recall. This phenomenon is independent of what they feel like sharing with me.