Let Me Ask You Few Q's As A Skeptic

[Zoidberg]

I am still a theist despite realizing all that.

Ha, you've got to be kidding. I certainly don't need proof and I feel sad for solo that he/she needs it. Miracles come after the faith. Everyone around me when it happened, heard the whole story and then watched it all unfold when these children were born...to the detail mind you, as well as details of their looks that are recognizable now that they are older. It has been truly amazing. I also had a dream that a sister in my ward had a baby girl...I was in the dream with her at the hospital holding my first girl as a baby. The thing is that she was not able to have children. However, I felt prompted to tell her about the dream. Six weeks later, she told me that she was pregnant and her doctor was shocked. She was six weeks along. We wondered all along why i was in the dream holding my first girl as a baby. Turns out she had her baby girl on the birthdate of my daughter. Too many things like this happen, to ever let me doubt.

But you were hoping to prove to solo that miracles happened to you; you couldn't provide any proof other than your words/testimony of the people who you told your dreams, and that's just not enough to prove something to anyone; it might be a sufficient confirmation to you, but that's it. I had a prophetic dream once; I had about a zillion dreams that didn't come true, and I don't remember them as well as the prophetic one; spinner is absolutely right about selective recall.

It's a wonderful thing believing...you should try it some time ;-)

I beg your pardon??? I guess you didn't see this:

I am still a theist despite realizing all that.

I believe that you experienced all those dreams/visions, for the record. I just don't think it's proof of anything.

Those two experiences were not selective recall or bias.

So you can remember all of the other dreams/daydreams you have experienced?

Possibly because you have not experienced such, you would not be able to comprehend it. Therefore, it's easier for you to discredit it than to believe it.

I don't know about spinner, but I have experienced many amazing coincidences and had a prophetic dream (it was something about a relative I was meeting for the first time that I had no way of knowing whatsoever). However, I realize that these experiences cannot be replicated, I had a lot more days that seemed completely mundane and dreams that didn't make any sense. The special experiences certainly do not prove anything, especially the existence of God. I believe in God, but I do not need to look for confirmation in my daily experiences; that's superstitious, IMHO.

[solomarineris]

And that is what I don't understand...why would you let that go? This is where I think belief becomes a choice. I do not want a life without my beliefs and the comfort it gives me. There is enough there to give me reason to continue in belief as unbelief. It does take a lot of persistance and determination, though (not that you aren't persistant and determined)

That is it, Juliann,

You admit that your faith, beliefs give you comfort. Let me give youu a small example;

Did you hear the story of Alan Rolston? who got stuck in a forsaken Canyon in Utah, his wrist under a 5 ton rock, he lived to survive by amputating his arm. What was he dreaming of? He was dreaming a cool glass of water, his visions were so intense, it seemed so real to him, except that he had a swollen, dry tongue.

I got lost at the same Plateau less than hundred miles away. I was thristy, nothing could quench that feeling.

I walked forty miles until I saw a cone camper who gave me more water than I could drink.

I haven't seen Him doing it for me, even though I longed so desperately at times. I can't be a Mother Theresa. If you read her story she very eloquently laments the emptiness.

[spinner]

First off, I have to say, I have never said that I was someone who predicts the future. If someone claims to have that ability, then of course they should put all their predictions to the test. But for you to apply that to spiritual experiences is rather silly.

I don't see why it's silly. You say that you've had certain 'miraculous' about which you said "Too many things like this happen, to ever let me doubt." Since you have apparently had so many of these, there seemingly would be a rigorous way to show that they are more than are random impressions; more than random chance.

Yes I have had many spiritual experiences, most of which I would not share online. I used those two examples to show that God, miracles, a preexistance, etc. exist. Those two experiences were not selective recall or bias.

Uhm, unless every single impression that has ever come to your head has proven equally prescient, this is in fact selective recall. And unless you remember each time your supposed spiritual impressions were wrong with equal clarity, recalling the confirmatory experiences while explaining away the ones that didn't come to pass is in fact confirmation bias.

Possibly because you have not experienced such, you would not be able to comprehend it. Therefore, it's easier for you to discredit it than to believe it.

I've experienced prescient moments too; I've had impressions that, taken in isolation, would seem to be beyond my own ken. Taken as a whole, though, the experiences didn't amount to much in the way of proof unless you can really show that there are consistently a higher proportion 'hits' from these impressions than could be expected without some sort of divine impression.

That's ok. Also, being in the presence of two children (who were not yet born, and it was not a dream, I was fully awake) is not a fleeting thought or impression.

Nevertheless, if you choose not to believe, then you will never know for yourself I guess, because, like I said, faith preceeds the miracle.

~Kate

Again, I hope not to make light of your experiences--no doubt they have enriched your own life greatly. But for the reasons I have stated, I don't see in them much evidentiary impact.

[spinner]

I don't share experiences to prove anything, but those experiences are my personal proof and I don't expect anyone to believe them. Some people will never appreciate coincidences for what they really are and want something bigger.

This reminds me of the Taoist saying "Those who know don't tell and those who tell don't know."

Truthfully, though, I don't expect you to start cataloging these things for me in any case. You're correct that without some sort of rigorous examination, all I see in such stories is coincidence. As I'm sure that many already think I've explained my reasoning ad nauseam, so I won't belabor it again (or at least not in this post).

[Kate]

I don't see why it's silly. You say that you've had certain 'miraculous' about which you said "Too many things like this happen, to ever let me doubt." Since you have apparently had so many of these, there seemingly would be a rigorous way to show that they are more than are random impressions; more than random chance.

Uhm, unless every single impression that has ever come to your head has proven equally prescient, this is in fact selective recall. And unless you remember each time your supposed spiritual impressions were wrong with equal clarity, recalling the confirmatory experiences while explaining away the ones that didn't come to pass is in fact confirmation bias.

I've experienced prescient moments too; I've had impressions that, taken in isolation, would seem to be beyond my own ken. Taken as a whole, though, the experiences didn't amount to much in the way of proof unless you can really show that there are consistently a higher proportion 'hits' from these impressions than could be expected without some sort of divine impression.

Again, I hope not to make light of your experiences--no doubt they have enriched your own life greatly. But for the reasons I have stated, I don't see in them much evidentiary impact.

I realize you are not making light of my experiences. You don't have to believe anything I say, and just as I cannot concretely prove them to you, you cannot prove that they didn't happen either. I could be wrong, but you seem to be bitter about not having help from Him when you needed it. Is that why you have a hard time with this?

In response to the bolded above in your quote, you are saying that every single impression in one's mind is synonomous to spiritual experiences, therefore if you cannot recall every single impression, or whether every single impression has come to pass, then it's confirmation bias. I am here to say that impressions differ from spiritual experiences, so in no way can your logic work. Prophetic dreams are not the same as regular dreams. They are completely different, so cannot be classified the same either.

As far as a rigorous way to show that my experiences are more than just random impressions...I don't think the Lord works that way. Just like Sherem asking for a sign to prove the existence of Jesus Christ, it won't benefit you to demand that. Those with faith already enjoy the spiritual manifestations of all of these things; they don't need proof.

Anyway, I had thought to share those experiences here so that just in case Solo had any desire to believe, then maybe I might have helped in some way...that's all.

~Kate