Let Me Ask You Few Q's As A Skeptic

[Daniel Peterson]

Well please accept my humble response; this is big baloney.

I appreciate your very persuasive and cogent reply.

Where do you think I did acquire my morality? From Ten Commandments, from reading Bible?

Even if I've got it from my mom or dad I still had a choice to do right or wrong.

All those senses you posess help you to create what you are. It's called life I do not need 613 commandments to discern what is good what is bad. If you feel like you need that kind of help you are welcome to. Most of those commandments are/were (besides being bad) asinine. Why would God prohibit eating pork in the beginning and end it up prohibiting wine or cofee?

Most of the stuff is so irrelevant to one's daily life one could have much more quality life without following any of those precepts.

If you ask me they are mostly control&coercion measures to keep the masses in line.

I give up. You've never come within a mile of beginning to grasp the point I was trying to make.

I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe that it's possible to have an intelligent discussion with you on this subject.

I respect individual's faith.

Credo. Adiuva incredulitatem meam.

[solomarineris]

Actually, there's considerable dispute about this. Life seems to have appeared on earth rather quickly after its appearance was physically possible -- so quickly that this has actually become a scientific problem in need of a solution: Why so quick?

Well, DP

Seems like you've read too much Daniken in your youth, like me. (listened Pink Floyd too?).

Later probably you listened losts of Art Bell & George Noory.

PS: I am not mocking you, I like these guys.

[Son]

Well please accept my humble response; this is big baloney. Where do you think I did acquire my morality? From Ten Commandments, from reading Bible?

Even if I've got it from my mom or dad I still had a choice to do right or wrong.

If you are a evolutionist, where do the principles of right and wrong come from?

All those senses you posess help you to create what you are. It's called life I do not need 613 commandments to discern what is good what is bad. If you feel like you need that kind of help you are welcome to. Most of those commandments are/were (besides being bad) asinine. Why would God prohibit eating pork in the beginning and end it up prohibiting wine or cofee?

Most of the stuff is so irrelevant to one's daily life one could have much more quality life without following any of those precepts.

If you ask me they are mostly control&coercion measures to keep the masses in line.

But like everyone else on this board I respect individual's faith.

There is room for everybody on this Planet so far.

The command to not eat pork was a spiritual example of not behaving like a pig.

Example:

Mindfull of the master when hungry, and not giving Him the time of day when full.

It is a metaphor of relating to our Heavenly Father. When life is good, our animal nature draws away from God and mainly His lessons of perfection.

When life is tough we draw near to him, until the tough times are gone. Then straight way we forget about Him, or His divine instruction that is for our bettermeant, not His.

Not eating of certain animals was a lesson of not taking part in their traits, not until the spiritual meaning was lost did the act of not eating certain animals come about.

The Raven and Eagle prey upon others for their sustenance, they don't put in a honest days work, and they feed on the misfortunes of others.

The Hyena changes its sexual preferences from year to year.

The Rabbit is an adulterer, spreading its seed every year it lives, throughout multiple partners.

The weasel conceives with its mouth and is unseemly in its acts of fornication.

The definitions and accounts can be found in the book of Barnabas (Pauls other half as pertaining to preaching the gospel of Christ).

As to wine and coffee, they are examples of refraining from escape through outward stimulations. They were the crutches of the day, as well as tobacco. They were also a waste of resources that were needed to build the church.

Today that would include Sugar binges, Caffeinated drinks, energy drinks, Meth, Cocaine, Pot, Pharmaceutical drugs used for coping with depression, anxiety, tranquility, sex. Just because a Dr. prescribes it doesn't make it right.

The WoW is only the beginning of the lesson. We should have the wisdom to know what to add, and what not too.

son

[kingonion]

Actually, there's considerable dispute about this. Life seems to have appeared on earth rather quickly after its appearance was physically possible -- so quickly that this has actually become a scientific problem in need of a solution: Why so quick?

Explain quick....

Are you referring to after the earth has geologically calmed down enough to permit life in general?

Given the right template, organisms will take full advantage for their own existance.

Where can I be pointed to read more on this subject? I'm not calling you out, you've just spiked my curiousity, that's all.

[Zoidberg]

Well please accept my humble response; this is big baloney. Where do you think I did acquire my morality? From Ten Commandments, from reading Bible?

Even if I've got it from my mom or dad I still had a choice to do right or wrong.

All those senses you posess help you to create what you are. It's called life I do not need 613 commandments to discern what is good what is bad. If you feel like you need that kind of help you are welcome to. Most of those commandments are/were (besides being bad) asinine. Why would God prohibit eating pork in the beginning and end it up prohibiting wine or cofee?

Most of the stuff is so irrelevant to one's daily life one could have much more quality life without following any of those precepts.

If you ask me they are mostly control&coercion measures to keep the masses in line.

But like everyone else on this board I respect individual's faith.

There is room for everybody on this Planet so far.

DCP is right about there being some universal moral principles. Not every religion holds on to the same moral principles, though, yet people tend to act more or less the same way. That could be well explained by the light of Christ. Or by evolution.

What DCP means by universal moral principle of fairness, I do not know. Perhaps he meant reciprocity. I fail to understand how there is any fairness in universal moral principles. The only trend, other than reciprocity, is the desire to avoid direct responsibility for harming others, IMHO. In a situation where you inevitably have to harm someone, you're likely to choose to harm less people as opposed to more. But if you can save a lot of people by killing one who otherwise wouldn't die, you would consider it immoral. I fail to see how this is fair. Marc Hauser would be the authority on the issue. He has some good examples of universal morality. I think he's also an atheist; he thinks evolution is responsible for them. So you can believe in universal moral principles and still be an atheist, solo.

[Daniel Peterson]

Explain quick....

Are you referring to after the earth has geologically calmed down enough to permit life in general?

Yes.

Given the right template, organisms will take full advantage for their own existance.

Of course, I'm not talking about organisms adapting. I'm referring to the origin of life itself.

Which, incidentally, remains an enormous mystery.

When I was a kid, the famous Miller-Urey experiments at the University of Chicago made it look as if we were just around the corner from figuring out how life arose from inorganic chemicals on the primitive earth. Now it seems as if Miller-Urey misread early terrestrial conditions, particularly (and crucially) with respect to the amount of oxygen in the formative atmosphere.

Where can I be pointed to read more on this subject? I'm not calling you out, you've just spiked my curiousity, that's all.

I'm trying to think of what I've read over the past several years on this topic. My recollection is that life can be documented within roughly 150 million years of when scientists think it would have begun to be possible. That's pretty quick, geologically and evolutionarily speaking. And, of course, the fact that we've found evidence of life so early doesn't mean that that's actually when it first appeared. It may have been earlier still. (In fact, given the chancey nature of such finds, it's virtually certain that it was earlier. The odds of our having happened to stumble upon surviving traces of the very first occurrence of biological activity on earth are very low.)

It's considerations like this that have led some scientists to propose theories of (directed or undirected) panspermia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia

[Daniel Peterson]

So you can believe in universal moral principles and still be an atheist, solo.

I know the arguments, but I tend to regard that claim as deeply problematic.

However, I don't have time to discuss it. I leave on Wednesday night for a month out of the country, and I have miles to go before I sleep. I just wanted to register my reservations about the claim above.

[Daniel Peterson]

Seems like you've read too much Daniken in your youth, like me. (listened Pink Floyd too?).

Later probably you listened losts of Art Bell & George Noory.

PS: I am not mocking you, I like these guys.

I think they're loons.

And, no, on this point I had people like Fred Hoyle, Francis Crick, and Chandra Wickramasinghe in mind.

[Zoidberg]

I know the arguments, but I tend to regard that claim as deeply problematic.

However, I don't have time to discuss it. I leave on Wednesday night for a month out of the country, and I have miles to go before I sleep. I just wanted to register my reservations about the claim above.

Hauser sees your position as irrational though. Have a good trip. Why don't we discuss it once you settle down/come back? I could start a thread now, but I doubt it would last for a month. I can wait. it would be an interesting discussion.

[Uncle Dale]

Now it seems as if Miller-Urey misread early terrestrial conditions, particularly (and crucially) with respect

to the amount of oxygen in the formative atmosphere.

Probably we need to step backwards to very primitive lifeforms that do not make use of oxidation for

survival as individuals or as a group. The ecology of "black smokers," such as we have here in the

Pacific, may provide some clues -- as may the self-replicating patterns evident in some fine grained clays.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but it would not surprise me, if, one day, something technically identified as

"life" comes out of a set of lab experiments somewhere. We are already co-creators of life, within our

own species, with God. It is not a big step, philosophically, to move from that natural process to a

process by which we co-create very primitive life in a petri dish.

At any rate, I doubt such an event would have much impact upon my spirituality -- (other than perhaps

inducing me to dust off my Teilhard de Chardin books).

UD

[solomarineris]

I think they're loons.

OK, then there's only another theory/belief remains explaining your hypotesis that I've heard from Brigham Young that Adam/Eve were transplanted from another Planet.

UD

Probably we need to step backwards to very primitive lifeforms that do not make use of oxidation for

survival as individuals or as a group. The ecology of "black smokers," such as we have here in the

Pacific, may provide some clues -- as may the self-replicating patterns evident in some fine grained clays.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but it would not surprise me, if, one day, something technically identified as

"life" comes out of a set of lab experiments somewhere. We are already co-creators of life, within our

own species, with God. It is not a big step, philosophically, to move from that natural process to a

process by which we co-create very primitive life in a petri dish.

Sounds just about right, UD

[Uncle Dale]

Sounds just about right, UD

Hey, solo -- nobody here is going to like me, if you're always agreeing with me!

Quick! Say something bad to me, before the Morms return!

UD

[cdowis]

And, no, on this point I had people like Fred Hoyle, Francis Crick, and Chandra Wickramasinghe in mind.

IMO, Fred Hoyle and panspermia fits well with LDS beliefs regarding the creation process.

[cdowis]

People are prone to interpret good things ("blessings") that happen to them as rewards from God for something they've done. I'm sure you've seen a lot of this. I only had enough money to either buy groceries or pay tithing... so I paid tithing.. and then I got this check in the mail.. I realized it was a test from God and now I have such a strong testimony of tithing...etc. This is typical superstitious pigeon reasoning (no offense to anyone, I do that, too). But in reality we don't know why some people have certain blessings/hardships, and the others don't. So I say whatever happens to people should not be judged by us as indicative of their previous behavior. Unless it's something predictable, like "This person is going to the bathroom. That must man they've had something to eat today." Even then, maybe they are going to the bathroom to check their make-up. Who knows.

When we leave mortality, we will discover who were the pigeons and who were obedient children of a divine Parent. I happen to know for a certainty which category I fall into because I know what lies on the other side of mortality.

[ERMD]

Hey, solo -- nobody here is going to like me, if you're always agreeing with me!

Quick! Say something bad to me, before the Morms return!

UD

That's priceless.

[solomarineris]

QUOTE(Uncle Dale @ Sep 3 2007, 05:17 PM)

Hey, solo -- nobody here is going to like me, if you're always agreeing with me!

Quick! Say something bad to me, before the Morms return!

UD

.

You greatly under-estimate your popularity UD.

This place would be dreary world without your presence.

I dare to challange anybody who disagree with me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zoidberg]

When we leave mortality, we will discover who were the pigeons and who were obedient children of a divine Parent. I happen to know for a certainty which category I fall into because I know what lies on the other side of mortality.

you do? And how did you receive that knowledge, if you don't mind my asking? Have you had your calling in election made sure? Or was it a deeply moving event in your life that made you realize you are a child of the Divine?

[Uncle Dale]

...I happen to know for a certainty...

But, Bro. Charlie, history no doubt records many, many people who testified that they "knew of a surety"

that one thing or another was what they said it was. I think it is not all that uncommon for opposing

witnesses in legal cases to swear that they "know beyond a shadow of a doubt," that one thing or another

is "true." They cannot all be correct. As external observers, we must find a reliable way of sorting out

the reliable proclaimers of "I happen to know for a certainty," from the unreliable ones.

I think you will probably agree with me that far, at least.

So -- how do I go about assessing your own testimony here? I do not mean, how do I know it to be

sincere (for I know you well enough to know it is sincere). And, I do not mean, how do I know that it

is/is not based upon spiritual experience and wise counsel (for I would expect at least that much of you).

Rather ----

How do I know that your "I happen to know for a certainty," is the FULL ANSWER, unclouded by imperfect

perceptions and imperfect interpretations? How do I know that it is FINAL, (and that you will not one day

add "more truth and light" to an incomplete or problematic testimony)?

And, lastly -- since I myself see such things only "as through a glass darkly," how do I know that your

testimony is always right, and mine is always wrong, where they appear to conflict? It is a matter I pray

about, from time to time; but I learn little of such details directly and I look to others for their realizations.

Uncle Dale

.

[Hammer]

People are prone to interpret good things ("blessings") that happen to them as rewards from God for something they've done. I'm sure you've seen a lot of this. I only had enough money to either buy groceries or pay tithing... so I paid tithing.. and then I got this check in the mail.. I realized it was a test from God and now I have such a strong testimony of tithing...etc. This is typical superstitious pigeon reasoning (no offense to anyone, I do that, too). But in reality we don't know why some people have certain blessings/hardships, and the others don't. So I say whatever happens to people should not be judged by us as indicative of their previous behavior. Unless it's something predictable, like "This person is going to the bathroom. That must man they've had something to eat today." Even then, maybe they are going to the bathroom to check their make-up. Who knows.

Judging should be done only if expedient. Then only with the Spirit of Christ as taught in Moroni 7. The blessings or hidden treasures are what we should be counting-- eternal life, atonement, the Holy Ghost's guidance--

Worldly wealth isn't the mark of righteous people, nor is poverty the mark of an unrighteous people. It isn't a measure by which we can gage another's righteousness.

Nor is it what we should be keeping the commandments to receive. Having charity the power to endure as taught in Moroni 7:47 is what we should be seeking. Charity and all its attributes that make us more godly.

[Zoidberg]

Judging should be done only if expedient. Then only with the Spirit of Christ as taught in Moroni 7. The blessings or hidden treasures are what we should be counting-- eternal life, atonement, the Holy Ghost's guidance--

Worldly wealth isn't the mark of righteous people, nor is poverty the mark of an unrighteous people. It isn't a measure by which we can gage another's righteousness.

Nor is it what we should be keeping the commandments to receive. Having charity the power to endure as taught in Moroni 7:47 is what we should be seeking. Charity and all its attributes that make us more godly.

I agree. That's why I've always felt uncomfortable at tithing settlements when I was promised all these various blessings.

[Hammer]

I agree. That's why I've always felt uncomfortable at tithing settlements when I was promised all these various blessings.

I have never been promised any blessings at tithing settlement. I am only asked questions which I answer. What does it mean that the windows of heaven will be opened? Would not this be revelation? Receiving spiritual empowerment from the Lord? The doctrines of the Priesthood distilling upon us as dew from heaven?

Where does it say worldly wealth? Barns being full? Does barns represent the earthly needs or the spiritual needs?

Sufficient for our needs. What does this mean? Those who lived through the depression knows what simple fare consisted of survival.

[Daniel Peterson]

I've always felt uncomfortable at tithing settlements when I was promised all these various blessings.

I don't believe I've ever heard such a promise in connection with tithing settlement.

[Zoidberg]

I don't believe I've ever heard such a promise in connection with tithing settlement.

I have. My BP was pretty new, though, and I think tithing was generally a problem in my branch, so he was trying to motivate people. I have heard testimonies of tithing such as the one I described earlier on multiple occasions, though, and read them in Church magazines. Aren't you supposed to be packing, BTW?

[Kate]

I haven't had time to read all of the responses to the original question, but I wanted to just say that I feel sad for you. However, keep in mind that without faith, miracles cannot happen. Can I prove that miracles have happened to me? Probably, if we sat down and talked for a while, yet, I'll bet that wouldn't do it for you either...you want a sign before you even try your faith. I have had so many miracles in my life that I have lost count; some big, some little. But they have never been coincidences...not even close. I met my last two children before they were born. How I was able to do that was another amazing miracle as well. All I can say is that I hope you decide some day to plant a seed of faith and try it.....you are truly missing out.

[Zoidberg]

I haven't had time to read all of the responses to the original question, but I wanted to just say that I feel sad for you. However, keep in mind that without faith, miracles cannot happen. Can I prove that miracles have happened to me? Probably, if we sat down and talked for a while, yet, I'll bet that wouldn't do it for you either...you want a sign before you even try your faith. I have had so many miracles in my life that I have lost count; some big, some little. But they have never been coincidences...not even close. I met my last two children before they were born.

Have you documented this meeting? (photos, voice recording, video?) If not, how could you prove to solo that it really happened?