Let Me Ask You Few Q's As A Skeptic

[Zoidberg]

There is a simple way to test your assertion.

Hold your breath for the next ten minutes.

Of course your perceptions may end up tricking you into thinking that you are holding your breath,

when, in reality, you are doing no such thing.

But at least you can attempt the experiment and report back to us on the results.

Uncle

"then again, perhaps you are but an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese,

a fragment of an underdone potato -- and I can safely ignore all that you have to say, anyway"

Dale

You see, I happen to believe that if I don't breathe for ten minutes, I will die. And since I also believe that faith can transform reality, I have to conclude that I will actually die. So I don't really feel like performing the little test you suggested.

[Hammer]

I cannot fathom how I once got baptized into LDS faith but I did and believed in it.

As the years slowly passed I figured out things.

I am reading your posts and thinking, why are they not able to use the same logic and deduce;

A- There's really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions.

B- Why do we believe other peoples experiences when nothing of that sort ever happens to you?

C-Why miraculous things always so conveniently happen when you are not around to witness them?

D-Why an average person (like young Joseph Smith in his time) will not arise and lead the Church as it happened in the past?

Instead of relying in spiritual payoffs which are so precarious and futile, I (unfortunately) have to put my faith in my SUV to get out of a calamity, A GPS, to guide me in Utah's harsh deserts, a phone which I can use in emergency since no prayer got me out of any trouble. The fact is that none of us are any more special than anybody else, why should God save me and let hundred others starve and let them die by incredibly asinine ways.

Why should I not get any any answers in spiritual matters? when I get most of other answers in conventional ways?

Why should I be punished for not believing into something that I've never seen or experienced?

How do you people confront with reality and still believe what you believe?

Well if you are sufficient unto yourself, why ask us?

[jadams_4242]

A- There's really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions.

Answer---Say what? No wonder you quit!

B- Why do we believe other peoples experiences when nothing of that sort ever happens to you?

Answer---I can give you a personal testimony that would blow your socks off.

C-Why miraculous things always so conveniently happen when you are not around to witness them?

Answer ---my freind, many miraculas things have happened in my families life, you want details?

D-Why an average person (like young Joseph Smith in his time) will not arise and lead the Church as it

happened in the past?

Answer===All of us are "average" persons, what the heck are you talking about? our leaders are average persons, when in the world did you ever get the impression they were above avearge?

My freind its quite obvious you did not do all that you could do when you were L.D.S..because those of us that do, receive many,many, spiritual and otherwise blessings into every aspect of our lives.

if you were never able to know the sacred,many, and wonderfull blessings of living the "true" gospel

that has been restored as the holy bible phrophcies, Then you were not living in your heart as God has commamded.

I dont beleive these things because someone gets up on the podium and tells me they are true.

I beleive these things because i have experianced Gods truth to myself many,many times,

And i also spent many,many,years Not doing gods will and commamdments, And have went back and forth sevearl times, And my freind i promise you, its not easy, but , IT IS TRUE.

[Nephi]

Searching for "proof" of spiritual matters leads to dead ends anyhow. Proof is a manifestation of reality. Spirituality has nothing to do with reality, and so using such ideas in the realms of spirituality will lead you to empty results and basing a belief upon that, one will come to the conclusion it is all false to begin with.

[Ray Agostini]

A- There's really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions.

B- Why do we believe other peoples experiences when nothing of that sort ever happens to you?

C-Why miraculous things always so conveniently happen when you are not around to witness them?

D-Why an average person (like young Joseph Smith in his time) will not arise and lead the Church as it happened in the past?

B - Things of "that sort" have happened to me, several times. The most baffling one remains unsolved, and I had the physical proof that it happened. I've shared it privately, never on BBs, and most who read it also have no answers. Some, possibly, think I was imagining, but the physical proof was there. There may well be a scientific explanation, but that is currently in the realm of metaphysics, not science.

C - I wonder why they happen to me when no one else is around. Except for the night I witnessed UFOs with about ten other people. Every one of us was totally convinced we saw something not of this world. A check on the Net revealed that others have seen very similar phenomena, and that there was no explanation for it. Yet there are and will continue to be UFO debunkers (it's imagination, or something like that, or maybe the US Air Force knows something we don't, but if they do, these craft make the space shuttle look like a horse carriage).

How do you people confront with reality and still believe what you believe?

You mean what you think is reality. Why should reality be judged by one person who lives in a speck in the Milky Way Galaxy? Do you really believe that we alone exist? What are the possibilities? They are beyond imagination, literally.

[Maidservant]

There is no rational basis for believing anything. To some people a black hole could be God because it exists. To Gandhi truth was God. Is truth intelligent? If only I exist, I could be God. Our perceptions could be all wrong. Hallucinations, phantom limbs, REM sleep, etc. - all those things have been documented in humans, so how do we know we are not experiencing one (or more) of those things? I disagree with DCP about universal morality. Morality is something we use to rationalize our behavioral choices (and "choices" and "free will" are also fragile concepts). You can be in a different stage of moral development (according to Kohlberg, for instance) than someone else, but still essentially doing the same thing: trying to rationalize your behavior or someone else's. It could be argued that we have a need for morality because it helps us maintain the illusion that we're in control of our environment (or ourselves, for that matter). I reject the concept of altruism, as well, if anyone is interested.

I would say that faith exists, and in that I agree with DCP and others. The tangible effects of faith have also been documented. Placebo effect... or people crashing planes into buildings. I would say that without faith you wouldn't even be able to perceive reality, as you have to trust your senses. And tangible evidence can influence your beliefs. To some people the BoM does the same thing the Tanners' book did to you. But not the others.

My comment is probably tangential to the main kernal of this discussion, but your thoughts reminded of one of my own 'truisms' (I made this up, at least as stated):

If you want other people to stop murdering, you need to stop littering.

[Uncle Dale]

You see, I happen to believe that if I don't breathe for ten minutes, I will die. And since I also believe

that faith can transform reality, I have to conclude that I will actually die. So I don't really feel like

performing the little test you suggested.

Well then, perhaps we can try a less harmful experiment.

The next time you have two thoughts in succession, use your will to space out the interval between

those two thoughts.

What occurred in that interval?

Was your exercising of will-power a function of perceptions and beliefs, or was it something other?

UD

[Zoidberg]

My comment is probably tangential to the main kernal of this discussion, but your thoughts reminded of one of my own 'truisms' (I made this up, at least as stated):

If you want other people to stop murdering, you need to stop littering.

And I wholeheartedly agree. I wonder if the percentage of people who commited murder has gone down since you and I stopped littering. I bet it has.

Well then, perhaps we can try a less harmful experiment.

The next time you have two thoughts in succession, use your will to space out the interval between

those two thoughts.

You forgot to ask me whether or not I believe it can be done. I don't.

[Nephi]

The next time you have two thoughts in succession, use your will to space out the interval between

those two thoughts.

Just for the record, I could do this without a problem (space out time) when I used strong hallucinogenic drugs.

[Uncle Dale]

You forgot to ask me whether or not I believe it can be done. I don't.

Do you believe that you can shorten the interval between throughts, and thus speed up your thinking

processes --- or, at least speed up the changes in content within your conscious thoughts?

I picture a dog -- I picture a dog with a bone -- I picture that bone in a meat market -- I think of

going to my own fridge and get some cold-cuts --- I recall that my wife ate the cold-cuts..... etc.

If that succession of thoughts cannot be slowed down, or interrupted, or set aside, can it be speeded up?

UD

[Zoidberg]

Just for the record, I could do this without a problem (space out time) when I used strong hallucinogenic drugs.

Interesting. I believe you. So now evidence (Nephi's testimony) has changed my belief about whether or not it can be done per se. But since I believe that it's better for me to stay away from strong hallucinogenic drugs, I'm not going to try it myself.

Do you believe that you can shorten the interval between throughts, and thus speed up your thinking

processes --- or, at least speed up the changes in content within your conscious thoughts?

I picture a dog -- I picture a dog with a bone -- I picture that bone in a meat market -- I think of

going to my own fridge and get some cold-cuts --- I recall that my wife ate the cold-cuts..... etc.

If that succession of thoughts cannot be slowed down, or interrupted, or set aside, can it be speeded up?

UD

I would say that I believe I (personally) am unable to measure the interval between my thoughts (if there is an interval between my thoughts). I've always thought of my thoughts and believed them to be a continuous flow, although I realize that other people may believe differently and have other experiences (like Nephi). So I would say that if Nephi (whose testimony I believe) could do it while on drugs, then it can be done. I don't believe I can do it to my own thoughts, though.

[Nephi]

After doing this on strong hallucinogens, I experimented with doing this meditating, and I did reach a point where I was aware of my thoughts before they became formulated into words in my head; a sort of samadhi (if you understand the stages of meditation in Buddhism). The next step would be control of time flow (ultimately of reality).

I totally believe that your mind controls all of what you see and perceive, and Buddhism goes a step further to say that you ARE the reality around you, and yet we are all so lost in the world around us because we attach identity to things created around us that we are unable to realize that we are the one's in control of it all.

Regardless, I just wanted to expand on this a lil. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Zoidberg]

After doing this on strong hallucinogens, I experimented with doing this meditating, and I did reach a point where I was aware of my thoughts before they became formulated into words in my head; a sort of samadhi (if you understand the stages of meditation in Buddhism). The next step would be control of time flow (ultimately of reality).

I totally believe that your mind controls all of what you see and perceive, and Buddhism goes a step further to say that you ARE the reality around you, and yet we are all so lost in the world around us because we attach identity to things created around us that we are unable to realize that we are the one's in control of it all.

Regardless, I just wanted to expand on this a lil. Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Yes, I would say I'm a Buddhist (philosophy-wise, I don't religiously worship Buddha and he himself obviously didn't intend anything of the sort). The last few steps of the eightfold middle path are the hardest, though.

[Uncle Dale]

Interesting. I believe you. So now evidence (Nephi's testimony) has changed my belief about whether or not it can be done per se. But since I believe that it's better for me to stay away from strong hallucinogenic drugs, I'm not going to try it myself.

I would say that I believe I (personally) am unable to measure the interval between my thoughts (if there is an interval between my thoughts). I've always thought of my thoughts and believed them to be a continuous flow, although I realize that other people may believe differently and have other experiences (like Nephi). So I would say that if Nephi (whose testimony I believe) could do it while on drugs, then it can be done. I don't believe I can do it to my own thoughts, though.

Interesting ---

However, many of the cerebral effects attributed to "drugs" are merely the workings of our own

neuro-transmitters. The drugs may act as a trigger, or as a sustainer, but the primary effects are

hard-wired inside of our own brains.

Prolonged fasting, or whirling, or running, or deep meditation can all induce states of consciousness

like those triggered by drugs. At least that has been my experience.

So, my explanation is that the time dialation experienced by Nephi was actually a change in his

thought processes that either gave him the illusion -------- or, allowed him to experience reality in

a way that his mundane thought processes generally block or inhibit.

All of which is just my way of saying -- no drugs required.

I have always experienced intervals between my thoughts -- though I could only measure them by

reference to my surroundings after I was again "thinking normally." The effect was most embarrassing

back in grade school -- when a teacher would ask me for the answer to a mathematical problem, or

some such thing, and I would "space out" for a few seconds, before I could even begin to answer.

It has become a more manageable phenomenon in recent years -- since I lived with Buddhists in Nepal.

UD

[Son]

I cannot fathom how I once got baptized into LDS faith but I did and believed in it.

As the years slowly passed I figured out things.

I am reading your posts and thinking, why are they not able to use the same logic and deduce;

A- There's really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions.

B- Why do we believe other peoples experiences when nothing of that sort ever happens to you?

C-Why miraculous things always so conveniently happen when you are not around to witness them?

D-Why an average person (like young Joseph Smith in his time) will not arise and lead the Church as it happened in the past?

Instead of relying in spiritual payoffs which are so precarious and futile, I (unfortunately) have to put my faith in my SUV to get out of a calamity, A GPS, to guide me in Utah's harsh deserts, a phone which I can use in emergency since no prayer got me out of any trouble. The fact is that none of us are any more special than anybody else, why should God save me and let hundred others starve and let them die by incredibly asinine ways.

Why should I not get any any answers in spiritual matters? when I get most of other answers in conventional ways?

Why should I be punished for not believing into something that I've never seen or experienced?

How do you people confront with reality and still believe what you believe?

Because you doubt, you do not receive.

I feel great empathy for anyone that does not perceive or experience beyond the five senses.

Six if you include thought. Seven if you have intuition.

There is a great seed of God put in everyone, it is up to each one of us to water, nuture and care for the tree of life within us.

Good thing the ancestors of 50 yrs ago didn't rely on their GPS, SUV and cell phones.

[solomarineris]

Well if you are sufficient unto yourself, why ask us?

solo

where did I say that I was sufficient to "myself"? Did I come across an arrogant SoB?

Life on a Plate

With all due respect, the Tanner's have created what, to me, is the most obvious case of fraud akin to Ed Decker himself. They have criticized Ed for how outlandish some of his claims have been, and that he doesn't cite enough quotes from the Journal of Discourses, and etc.

The truth is, the Tanner's are as good of quote miners as you could ever hope to find. Context isn't in their vocabulary, unfortunately, nor is an adequate sense of what the Church actually teaches.

solo

Tanners did not create anything of their own, they did not falsify any documents to meet their goal, I do not understand your animosity towards them

Juliann

Solo, the Tanners should be ashamed for what they do....they push a religion as whacky as ours yet they write books that turn people away from God not Mormonism.

Reality can only be debated and it is a philosophical debate. That is why I think that debating religion is ultimately silly....we only know what we know. Our knowledge is socially constructed and our reality is based on our knowledge. All I can say is that it is a lonely and frightening world that would demand we not rely on anyone else's experiences.

solo

You wouldn't get any argument from me that Taner's defense of Christianity is whackier than Mormonism.

That was not my point, I am not defending Christianity here.

However debating religion is somehow it comes all down to, when you go out to the world to claim to be world's only true Church, people need to have the answers.

And frankly I have to you all, you created a board which is tolerant to opposing views like mine, I do admire you that even though such an onslaught of opposing posts you keep your civility.

[Zoidberg]

Interesting ---

However, many of the cerebral effects attributed to "drugs" are merely the workings of our own

neuro-transmitters. The drugs may act as a trigger, or as a sustainer, but the primary effects are

hard-wired inside of our own brains.

Prolonged fasting, or whirling, or running, or deep meditation can all induce states of consciousness

like those triggered by drugs. At least that has been my experience.

So, my explanation is that the time dialation experienced by Nephi was actually a change in his

thought processes that either gave him the illusion -------- or, allowed him to experience reality in

a way that his mundane thought processes generally block or inhibit.

All of which is just my way of saying -- no drugs required.

I have always experienced intervals between my thoughts -- though I could only measure them by

reference to my surroundings after I was again "thinking normally." The effect was most embarrassing

back in grade school -- when a teacher would ask me for the answer to a mathematical problem, or

some such thing, and I would "space out" for a few seconds, before I could even begin to answer.

It has become a more manageable phenomenon in recent years -- since I lived with Buddhists in Nepal.

UD

I am aware of the workings of neurotransmitters and that different substances/techniques can induce the same sensations. I've tried some meditation techniques on my own with mediocre success (I believe, however, that there is hope for me). My dream is also to one day have experiences similar to the ones you had in Nepal.

I think the ultimate problem with Nephi's experience is that we do not have an objective basis of determining whether or not he experienced an illusion or reality. Which does not make the experience any less real. Why should we convince him it was merely an illusion? Or why should we believe that what he described really happened? It could be one, or the other ,or both, or neither, but we can't know for sure. Yes, MRIs and that are useful, but you can't use them to disprove the reality of anyone's experience. Time dialation was experienced by Nephi, as opposed to not being experienced by him.

[ERMD]

personal insults deleted - knock it off ~ Mods

[Nephi]

Yes, I would say I'm a Buddhist (philosophy-wise, I don't religiously worship Buddha and he himself obviously didn't intend anything of the sort). The last few steps of the eightfold middle path are the hardest, though.

Really, I don't see Buddhism as a religion, just a life philosophy. There isn't anything to worship.

[Deborah]

You see, I happen to believe that if I don't breathe for ten minutes, I will die. And since I also believe that faith can transform reality, I have to conclude that I will actually die. So I don't really feel like performing the little test you suggested.

In actuality you cannot out of your will hold your breath and die. You would pass out before that happens and the automatic reflex would take over. You would have to take extraordinary means to insure you did not get sufficient oxygen but even then when the chest starts aching from the lack of oxygen the fight for life reflex will take over. I actually think this is a good example of the answer to the OP questions.

For example:

A- There's really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions. But there is a point when some things become reflexive. Many people whether religious or not will let out an "Oh, my God" when they hear shocking news or see a shocking event (ie the fall of the twin towers). Whether one wants to believe it or not there is more to perceive than what can be observed through the 5 senses we know about. Call it the 6th sense or intuition but how anyone can deny there is more than what can be physically perceived is to deny everyday reality.

B- Why do we believe other peoples experiences when nothing of that sort ever happens to you? Some people believe because these things do happen to them as well. I think it is significant that Joseph Smith came from a family that did not exclude dreams and other supernatural events. Other people believe because even if they haven't had any of these supernatural experiences they have a sense expressed by Hamlet "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." I personally have had many miraculous experiences so I do not discount those of others.

C-Why miraculous things always so conveniently happen when you are not around to witness them? I guess this is a matter of what miraculous means. I see miraculous things everyday, but then I think of miracles as sometimes just simple things, like hearing from an old friend you haven't seen in years after thinking about that person. As I said above I have had enough what would be called the non-simple miracles to know they exist.

D-Why an average person (like young Joseph Smith in his time) will not arise and lead the Church as it happened in the past? I think this has been answered. All our prophets have been "average" people. Some may have more formal education than others but they are like everyone else in that they have needs and desires and weaknesses to overcome. However, the Lord has put them in situations throughout their lives to prepare them for their prophetic callings.

[Uncle Dale]

Really, I don't see Buddhism as a religion, just a life philosophy. There isn't anything to worship.

Close to being correct, I think. Though all life is held sacred -- all sentient beings respected --

all saints venerated -- the Buddha nature professed as a model for emulation and reverence.

Beyond that, it is a religion mostly in how people within the community treat each other and how

the "path" or the "lifestyle" or the "realization" is communicated to others.

UD

[solomarineris]

In almost every post, you come across as an angry, bitter, frustrated individual.

I truly pity you.

Whatever you're looking for, you're certainly not going to find it here.

Isaiah 55:8-9; 1 Cor 2:14

solo

Thanks for your pity, but please leave it for your dog or cat and feed them first.

You do not need to feel any pity for me just because I do not fit into your frame of objectivity.

There's a whole, diverse life out there, independent of what you think that ties you where you are.

Charity

Solo, doesn't it shake your dependence on bodily senses and perceptions to know that there are sensory mechanisms that other living things have that we don't? Three of them are: 1. the vibrations not audible but discernible to elephants which help them locate each other over great distances. 2. Whatever it is that lets animals know an earthquake is coming and this happens before any seismic events are discernible even with sensitive instruments. 3. The directional mechanism which allows a bird to mirgrate to accurately return to their nesting area.

Think about this. We can only be aware of and measure sensory events which we have the sensory mechanism to detect and decode. We can measure hearing, even sounds out of our auditory range, BECAUSE we have the ability to hear and know there is something out there causing sounds, and BECAUSE we have a way to measure and display them in a way we can sense (in a visual dispaly) those sounds we cannot hear.

What kinds of sensory information is out there that we don't have the sensory mechanism to detect? We cannot even speculate. But it would irrational to say that there is nothing. What sensory information is out there that we may have the sensory ability to detect, but which is so little used we don't recognize it and don't utilize it?

Don't be so sure that everything that we can and need to know is detectable through taste, touch, hearing, vision and kinesthetics.

solo

Charity, I am not sure of anything but the sensory perception you are talking about I am well aware of them.

The problem is you experience them yourself only. When I was 18 (over 30yrs back) I did smoke this turkish hashish seveal times, I canot explain to you what I saw, my mind was in a blizzard of scenes, colors, so otherworldly, it scared me. I've never tired it since then. I know what my mind is capable of.

When I hear somebody elses spiritual experiences; I understand and respect them that IT HAPPENED TO THEIR MINDS.

If they want to prove me that it happened and further their cause, they have to do better than reciting.

That's all.

[Uncle Dale]

In actuality you cannot out of your will hold your breath and die. You would pass out before that happens...

Well, I wasn't advocating that anybody actually do such a thing, of course.

There are various ways that people have come up with, to assist in shutting off conscious thought,

and perception, without rendering themselves unconscious. Some are less practical than others.

I was merely pointing the discussion in the direction of practicality -- and it seems to have worked.

UD

[grego]

I cannot fathom how I once got baptized into LDS faith but I did and believed in it.

I would start there.

[BlueDreams]

I cannot fathom how I once got baptized into LDS faith but I did and believed in it.

As the years slowly passed I figured out things.

I am reading your posts and thinking, why are they not able to use the same logic and deduce;

A- There's really nothing out there that we can sense beyond our bodily perceptions.

Because that seems fairly limited.

B- Why do we believe other peoples experiences when nothing of that sort ever happens to you?

Why must it happen to us? I don't believe that life is a checklist of experiences one MUST have, without exception. People have experiences that I never will because their life is not mine. But I can learn from those. Hearing those experiences, pondering them, etc. is my experience to have.

C-Why miraculous things always so conveniently happen when you are not around to witness them?

But they have. They might not be as 'big' as others, of course, but they're my experiences that tell me G-d is there and that He knows me.

D-Why an average person (like young Joseph Smith in his time) will not arise and lead the Church as it happened in the past?

When did Hinkley become superman . Seriously there is a time and place for everything and honestly I don't believe we need someone like JS for today, we need GBH.

Instead of relying in spiritual payoffs which are so precarious and futile, I (unfortunately) have to put my faith in my SUV to get out of a calamity, A GPS, to guide me in Utah's harsh deserts, a phone which I can use in emergency since no prayer got me out of any trouble.

When I was in Mexico, I had to rely on a number of things that were not spiritual payoffs. I had to rely on a can of coke to help with traveling sickness, eating carefully to prevent illness, my passport to get me on a plane, and the bus driver to manage the small winding mountain roads south of Mexico City. But there became a time where precaution and meds wouldn't help and I needed the comfort and the strength of God. When others needed something more than a GPS system (assuming that they could afford it) for a guidance in even their daily lives. And a number of small things here and there that just build up and remind me of a verse in psalms: "thou art my hiding place and my shield: I hope in thy word."

The fact is that none of us are any more special than anybody else, why should God save me and let hundred others starve and let them die by incredibly asinine ways.

Because we allow it...I almost want to say desire it. Not necessarily the needless deaths but the circumstances that lead up to said troubles such as greed.

Why should I not get any any answers in spiritual matters? when I get most of other answers in conventional ways?

Most of my spiritual answers come in conventional ways

Why should I be punished for not believing into something that I've never seen or experienced?

you won't be.

How do you people confront with reality and still believe what you believe?

This is my reality, more so now than it was just a year ago and it continues to grow in its strength.

With luv,

BD