Mormons As "blind Followers"

[Maidservant]

Going along with that, the Spirit even reasoned with Nephi, since Nephi resisted the first intimation of the Spirit as to a very far-reaching decision that was ahead of him. I am speaking of the passages describing when Nephi slew Laban.

Yes, about 5 minutes or less after the angel came and stopped Laman and Lemuel from beating the tar out of Nephi and Sam and also provided some encouragement and promise, Laman and Lemuel still chose their fear. What exactly constitutes blindness?

[koakaipo]

In the thread about whether pioneer Mormons were more "bloodthirsty" (referring to MMM), an explantion of the cultural context noted there was a very strong emphasis on obediance (with a note about someone's great grandfather getting excommunicated for going to a dance, or something like this).

Fast forward to today - anti-Mormons accuse LDS of being "blind sheep".

Beyond the pejorative characterization, isn't the basic assertion correct?

There is an emphasis on obediance, and an admonition to support & follow local leaders, so why are TBMs so defensive when others assert many Mormons will blindly follow their leaders' direction? It's not as though this is some kind of dramatic accusation that parts widely from reality.

Understood the direction today is more along the lines of individual interpretation in following the spirit, but cultures rarely make 180 degree turns. In the case of the priesthood ban, the LDS people have impressively done a turnabout, but in the case of obediance, it's not as though there has been a revelation & direction to "forget everything we've said about obediance, make your own decisions".

I just don't understand why TBMs get so upset when others point out the LDS emphasis - and effective result - regarding obediance. The historic & (many) contemporary examples are overwhelming.

I haven't read the whole thread, so let me just answer this original post:

I mention this alot but in the Mormon church, there's always been a tension between self discernment and revelation, and obedience. How healthy or unhealthy that tension is depends on each individual member of course, because they can personalize it to various degrees. But there have also been trends culturally at different periods of time where obedience is emphasized for various reasons.

sometimes these periods of time where we see more emphasis can come in part from leadership-some church presidents have been more authoritative in nature(BY, Benson) than other presidents(McKay) who have more collegial leadership styles.

But it's not exclusively from the top to bottom. When things are happening in the outside culture, you can see the emphasis being reinforced from the bottom up too in different but still important ways.

I think sometimes nonmembers looking from the outside simply focus more on the "obedience" angle of members when in reality Mormons both individually and collectively practice their faith in a more complex way. And that includes such key concepts as agency and self discernment and self revelation.

And I personally don't think it's blind faith myself. You will find blind faith in any belief system. Ideally, counsel is the model we most use as a community to seek out truth.

[Dale]

I must correct myself Steve Benson resigned without getting ex-communicated. I do think he would have gotten ex-communicated if he had not resigned.

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Urroner-That's true. Though kicking out someone like Van Hale it would mean he could only excercise his free speech as a former Mormon. I doubt Van Hale who is well respected is in any danger. With D. Michael Quinn it certainly impacted his ability to sell his book's with Mormon's.

[Bernard Gui]

It would appear the overwhelming majority of Mormons are on autopilot when it comes to following church leaders, at the top & local. Recalling from my upbringing and observing recently as a guest in LDS sacrament meeting, I would bet 80% of the right hands would go up even if the bishop were to say something completely outrageous.

"To all those who can join me in expressing gratitude for Brother Jones' vandalism conviction, raise the right hand."

How do you know that this is true of the overwhelming majority of

Mormons? Have you met at least 8 million LDS in order to form your

opinion?

In 60 years I have never heard any leader suggest anything

outrageous from the pulpit to be sustained. When LDS raise their hands

to sustain a person or a proposition, it is not a democratic vote. It is a

personal commitment to do all that is possible to help that person fulfil

his/her calling or to support with word and deed the idea being proposed.

I have been in meetings when dissenting hands were raised. The person

at the pulpit simply says, "Please see me after the meeting to express

your concerns." What a ridiculous scenario you have presented, certainly

not based on any kind of knowledge of LDS life and practice.

Strait is the gate & narrow is the way

Aha. This appears to be a scriptural underpinning of the point I was attempting to make in the OP. "The thinking has been done, just follow the recipe, listen to your leaders - they're getting instruction from above."

To the extent this scripture has a high level of primacy in LDS theology & culture, this is how uniformity of thought & behavior arises, and how so much thinking is deemed unnecessary, really. "Check your brain at the door". This results in homogeneity of thought & behavior, on both religious & non-religious topics.

Those are Jesus' words defining the path to eternal life. He added that

very few will find it. Jesus' words do have a high level of primacy in

LDS theology and culture. Your insulting "check your brain at the door,"

has nothing to do with our desire to follow the Lord.

Even the General Authorities recognize the problem with too much group think, as they issued a very unusual statement a few years back that it's not a terrible thing to be LDS & a Democrat. It's almost like they were trying to say "you know, folks, on some things it's OK to think for yourselves!"

CFR: "It's not a terrible thing to be LDS & a Democrat."

How condescending you are to a group of motivated, intelligent, well-educated, and devoted people.

Bernard

[Avatar4321]

no. nothing blind about it.

[Pahoran]

I remember my Bishop quoting a member of the 70 and said that, "When the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done!"

No you don't, and no he didn't.

That statement wasn't made by any 70. Not even by a Seventy. It was written in an anonymous article in a Church magazine in 1945 and repudiated by the President of the Church himself.

It gets current mention, not because any 70 quotes it for any bishop to recite, but because anti-Mormons who couldn't tell you how many books there are in The Book of Mormon without looking them up have it on their ready-reference of anti-Mormon prooftexts.

I took that to mean, it doesn't matter what I think about things. It doesn't matter that something seems so egregiously wrong, don't question it. Don't even THINK about objecting to it.

Yes, that is the interpretation you and your fellow anti-Mormons would like to foist upon us.

It won't work. We reject that statement.

Don't do it again.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Calm]

My Danite squad leader said the appropriate response is a bullet through the temple.

Right, left, Provo or SLC?

I was mainly trying to figure out something non-LDS could consider a true act of blind obedience to LDS leaders.

In my experience, most of my non-LDS friends considered refusing to engage in pre-marital sex as the worst case of "blind obedience" they could imagine.

[Corky Wallace]

For Bernard Gui,

Call for References on "It's not a terrible thing to be LDS & a Democrat"

"Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in the platforms of all major political parties. While the church does not endorse political candidates, platforms or parties, members are urged to be full participants in political, governmental and community affairs."

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635191859,00.html

I paraphrased that statement to essentially mean "It's not a terrible thing to be LDS & a Democrat"

Were you unaware of this letter, or were you merely trying to catch me in a "gotcha" regarding the precise wording? (The latter is not offensive to me - it's a part of the rough & tumble of debate.)

As far as your perception that I was being condescending, that was not my intention. I've found here that to stimulate a response there frequently needs to be an "edge" in posts, otherwise they get ignored, or are otherwise perceived to be uninteresting.

I would probably soften the language, but make the same argument to anyone.

[Bernard Gui]

Call for References on "It's not a terrible thing to be LDS & a Democrat"

"Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in the platforms of all major political parties. While the church does not endorse political candidates, platforms or parties, members are urged to be full participants in political, governmental and community affairs."

I paraphrased that statement to essentially mean "It's not a terrible thing to be LDS & a Democrat"

Paraphrases don't always transmit information accurately.

Were you unaware of this letter, or were you merely trying to catch me in a "gotcha" regarding the precise wording? (The latter is not offensive to me - it's a part of the rough & tumble of debate.)

This is not news. The Church regularly puts out a similar disclaimer.

I was in sacrament meeting when this one was read. There's one before every political season. Here's what the CHI says:

"[The Church] does not endorse political parties, platforms, or candidates. Church leaders and members should avoid any statements or conduct that might be interpreted as Church endorsement of political parties or candidates” (Church Handbook of Instructions, Book 2: Priesthood and Auxiliary Leaders [1998], 325)."

In October, 1996, Elder Oaks said,

"We have seen some very bitter finger-pointing among Latter-day Saints who disagree with one another on the policies a government should follow, the political parties they should support, or the persons they should elect as public servants. Such disagreements are inevitable in representative government. But it is not inevitable that they would result in the personal denunciations and bitter feelings described in the press or encountered in personal conversations.

"We put political disagreements in the appropriate context when we remember that even if our political adversaries are making the wrong choice (as we suppose), that is generally a matter of error (mistake) rather than transgression (sin). (Of course, there are some public policies so intertwined with moral issues that there may be only one morally right position, but that is rare.)"

I could give you a hundred more similar quotes.

So, maybe some of those Wascally Wepublicans in Utah think they have the Church marching in lock-step with them, but obviously they haven't been paying attention if they do.

So, how do you know what the vast majority of Mormons think? Inquiring

minds want to know.

It's almost like they were trying to say "you know, folks, on some things it's OK to think for yourselves!"

That, my friend, is condescending and insulting. Even if it's meant to

generate a response. Not only that, it's ridiculous.

Bernard

[Ray Agostini]

I think many bishops would like to see more blind obedience, especially in regard to 100% home teaching.

[Ray Agostini]

I remember my Bishop quoting a member of the 70 and said that, "When the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done!"

I took that to mean, it doesn't matter what I think about things. It doesn't matter that something seems so egregiously wrong, don't question it. Don't even THINK about objecting to it.

I think the bishop was being idealistic. Really, how many members strictly follow the prophet? I remember the FP statement in regard to birth control - flouted by members. Working mothers - flouted by members. Sabbath observance - not when the football finals are on, or there's a new restaurant on the block. In the Prohibition era the FP encouraged members to vote against ending Prohibition - Utah was the state which broke the deadlock, ending Prohibition.

So much for "blind obedience".

[MorningStar]

I remember my Bishop quoting a member of the 70 and said that, "When the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done!"

I took that to mean, it doesn't matter what I think about things. It doesn't matter that something seems so egregiously wrong, don't question it. Don't even THINK about objecting to it.

I double dog dare you to prove any General Authority ever said that. I can't believe a bishop ever said that.

In other words:

CFR

[Maidservant]

Seeing as how most Mormons live outside of the United States, they are neither Republican nor Democrat.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Brigham Young:

â??What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self security. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. (Brigham Young, "Eternal Punishment," Journal of Discourses, 9:150.)

"Some may say, Brethren, you who lead the Church, we have all confidence in you, we are not in the least afraid but what everything will go right under your superintendence; all the business matters will be transacted right; and if brother Brigham is satisfied with it, I am. I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied. I wish them to know for themselves and understand for themselves, for this would strengthen the faith that is within them. Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are, this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord.

Every man and woman in this kingdom ought to be satisfied with what we do, but they never should be satisfied without asking the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, whether what we do is right." (Brigham Young, October 6, 1855, Journal of Discourses, 3:45)

Editorial from the Millenial Star:

"...the question is sometimes asked,- to what extent is obedience to those who hold the priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question, we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood..."We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything that they were told to do by those who preside over them, if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God...would despise the idea. Others in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without asking any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their minds to do wrong themselves." (Priesthood, author unknown, recorded in the Millennial Star, 14, v. 38:593-595)

[bluebell]

Even the General Authorities recognize the problem with too much group think, as they issued a very unusual statement a few years back that it's not a terrible thing to be LDS & a Democrat. It's almost like they were trying to say "you know, folks, on some things it's OK to think for yourselves!"

First-the statement they issued was not unusual as they issue it such a statement almost yearly or whenever political elections are coming up.

Why did you describe the statement as 'unusual' when you obviously have no knowledge of whether it was or not?

Second-i have a hard time really believing that you read that statement and what you got out of it was that the LDS leadership was trying to get the LDS members to believe it's o.k. to think for themselves.

That seems like a very biased and stretched interpretation of the statement.

The actual quote, as you know, was-

"Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in the platforms of all major political parties. While the church does not endorse political candidates, platforms or parties, members are urged to be full participants in political, governmental and community affairs."

The church's position in political matters is that we have a duty to be active in our governments and to be 'anxiously engaged' in bringing about much good in the world.

Now, since i know that about the LDS church-i know that the above quote is simply reminding it's members, as it does all the time, that what political party they belong to is not that important, but it is important to be a part of the political process and to care about the issues at hand.

Your interpretation is flawed, because it is an interpretation that is NOT based on any real knowledge of LDS beliefs in this arena and it assumes an opinion based almost comletely upon that lack of knowledge.

In other words-you don't know enough about LDS beliefs concerning politics to second guess what that statement really means-and your assuming it was saying something based only on your preconceived ideas about LDS being blind followers and not on any real evidence that exists in the quote or LDS beliefs on this topic.

[Zoidberg]

Chaos and anarchy are much better than peace and order, wouldn't you agree?

I'm trying hard to think of something I have heard from a General Authority in

the past 60 years that if I obeyed it, it would result in harm to me, my family, or others.

Strangely, I can't think of a thing. Maybe you can help me out here.

Define "harm". I have held a similar position until I was urged to write to my Senator and tell him to vote for the marriage amendment. That, I believe, has caused great harm to my testimony, even if you do not consider all the other implications harmful.

[Dale]

FAIR talked about the source of the Thinking is done statement.

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/When_the_Proph...nking_Done.html

[LifeOnaPlate]

Define "harm". I have held a similar position until I was urged to write to my Senator and tell him to vote for the marriage amendment. That, I believe, has caused great harm to my testimony, even if you do not consider all the other implications harmful.

Indeed, my Aunt and Uncle left the Church over the issue.

[Zoidberg]

Indeed, my Aunt and Uncle left the Church over the issue.

Yes, I don't know what to do now, since I was ridiculed by my family for joining the Church in the first place. They believed I was being brainwashed by an american cult... They treated me kind of the way DHO suggested parents treat their gay children in a recent press-release. Love the sinner, hate the sin type of a thing. I know that doesn't work. Kind of ironic, don't you think?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yes, I don't know what to do now, since I was ridiculed by my family for joining the Church in the first place. They believed I was being brainwashed by an american cult... They treated me kind of the way DHO suggested parents treat their gay children in a recent press-release. Love the sinner, hate the sin type of a thing. I know that doesn't work. Kind of ironic, don't you think?

I don't see a problem with what Elder Oaks taught in the release. There are some things a close relative of mine does which I choose not to do. I love this person, and my view of this person is not affected by their choices in a negative way.

In Lehi's vision of the Tree of Life he talks about a group of people who make it to the tree, partake, and then notice there are some folks mocking them. They become ashamed and leave the tree, wandering in strange roads. I suggest checking out 1 Nephi 8, read it through, and then check out Alma 32. Read and pray about what's troubling you.

Keep in mind that there are times in our religious life that we'll encounter "mists of darkness," and it seems you may be encountering one over this particular issue. This is a time to cling close to the Lord and seek to know His will. Remember that you won't always agree with the counsel of our prophets. I have to admit if I always immediately and unequivocally agreed with every pronouncement in the Church then I'd start to think something was wrong. I'd start to think I am essentially following my own desires, beliefs, values, etc.

Perhaps a few words from an old favorite of mine, Elder Hugh B. Brown.

On being flexible in our beliefs he counseled:

"This Church is not committed to any formal, inflexible creed, but its members are taught to believe in and live by the revelations of the past and the present and thus prepare themselves for revelations yet to come. Our concepts and even our faith must be held subject to new light." (Monday, Feb. 26, 1962, to the students at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, Pittsburgh, Pa.)

In another key address he said:

"Preserve, then, the freedom of your mind in education and in religion, and be unafraid to express your thoughts and to insist upon your right to examine every proposition. We are not so much concerned with whether your thoughts are orthodox or heterodox as we are that you shall have thoughts. One may memorize much without learning anything. In this age of speed, there seems to be little time for meditation...

"Dissatisfaction with what is around us is not a bad thing if it prompts us to seek betterment, but the best sort of dissatisfaction in the long run is self-dissatisfaction, which leads us to improve ourselves....

"Our reactions to the ever-changing impacts of life will depend upon our goals, our ideals. 'The vision that you glorify in your mind, the ideal that you enthrone in your heart, this you will build your life by, this you will become.' Every life coheres around certain fundamental core ideas, whether we realize it or not, and herein lies the chief value of revealed religion. But while I believe all that God has revealed, I am not quite sure that I understand what he has revealed. The fact that he has promised further revelation is to me a challenge to keep an open mind and to be prepared to follow wherever my search for truth may lead..."

"We have been blessed with much knowledge by revelation from God which, in some part, the world lacks. But there is an incomprehensibly greater part of truth which we must yet discover. Our revealed truth should leave us stricken with the knowledge of how little we really know. It should never lead to an emotional arrogance based upon a false assumption that we somehow have all the answers--that we in fact have a corner on truth, for we do notâ?¦ continue your search for truth. And maintain humility sufficient to be able to revise your hypotheses as new truth comes to you by means of the spirit or the mind. Salvation, like education, is an ongoing process...."

He concludes admonishing humility in prayer:

"As you go forward in your search for truth and as you espouse principles and establish ideals toward which to work, pray for courage to be true to your loyalties, to your ideals, and to yourself. It has been said that those who know the precepts and neglect to obey them are like those who light a candle in the darkness and then close their eyes. Remember, there is a power greater than yourselves upon which you may call."

(From an address given to the BYU student body on May 13, 1969, when Hugh B. Brown was First Counselor in the First Presidency.)

See the whole thing. http://unicomm.byu.edu/president/documents/brown.htm

[Hammer]

When I vote I check the canidatea out and many republicans have voted for abortion and other 'sinful' practices and still claim from the podium that they are good LDS.

I don't think the party name means squat. Vote your conscience. And that is what we are told from the pulpit. Pray and study it out.

Don't take the polititions word for anything. Check it out like the church teaches us to do. Anyone leaving the church over politics is plum not worthy in the first place.

[Doctor Steuss]

I just don't understand why TBMs get so upset when others point out the LDS emphasis - and effective result - regarding obediance. The historic & (many) contemporary examples are overwhelming.

I would wager that the number of examples (historic and contemporary) of people not obeying would be a wee bit higher than the examples of people obeying.

--------

Why does it seem that the further up the totem pole you go, the fewer statements regarding "obeying leaders" seem to pop up?

Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know[ing] that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil

Josehp F. Smith, Collected Discourses, ed. Brian H. Stuy, Vol. 3 (Burbank, B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992)

[LifeOnaPlate]

I would wager that the number of examples (historic and contemporary) of people not obeying would be a wee bit higher than the examples of people obeying.

--------

Why does it seem that the further up the totem pole you go, the fewer statements regarding "obeying leaders" seem to pop up?

Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know[ing] that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil

Josehp F. Smith, Collected Discourses, ed. Brian H. Stuy, Vol. 3 (Burbank, B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992)

Thanks for the JFS quote; I'll add it to the collection.

[rocmonkey]

Lucky that's not in the scriptures! Or church doctrine! Or from the prophet!

Well, it was taught by the prophet as doctrine. If God never changes, you can say it is still LDS doctrine. Its in the Journal of Discourses (Jod) which say they are part of the Standard Works (SW) of the Church. So, in that case, that is not only doctrine but SW- which are even more important to Mormons, these days. This is just one reason why folks say Mormons are blindly following their leaders- because they did.

They still do. Mormons are told they are Christians by their leaders without doing any research for themselves to see if that is true- again following their leaders blindly. An example would be (one of many, actually) Mormons are taught that the Bible is not translated correctly. Most Mormons believe this totally, without question (read as blindly). Yet not one Mormon, including every leader (prophet, apostle, etc), has ever shown, with proof, that the Bible has been changed. In fact, no one ever has and many anti-Christians throughout the last 2,000 years have tried and failed.

Another one is Mormons believe the Bible. But the Bible says there is only one God and before Him there was no God formed nor will there be any after Him. Yet, blindly, Mormons totally believe their leaders words that there are many (Trillions of) Gods. Orson Pratt said there are more Gods than there are particles of matter. He was one of the first 12 apostles of the LDS church- for those who don't know. Is there one God or more than one? Do you believe Mormonism or the Bible? You can't believe both. The evidence proves Mormons are blindly following. The worst part is they just don't know they are because its the standard operating procedure (read as brain-washed) for the Mormon church. It starts immediately upon becoming a Mormon..

[rocmonkey]

I would wager that the number of examples (historic and contemporary) of people not obeying would be a wee bit higher than the examples of people obeying.

--------

Why does it seem that the further up the totem pole you go, the fewer statements regarding "obeying leaders" seem to pop up?

Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know[ing] that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil

Josehp F. Smith, Collected Discourses, ed. Brian H. Stuy, Vol. 3 (Burbank, B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992)

This is a prime example of what I just posted. Mormons believing a lie without question because it comes from a 'supposed' prophet of God. If he is lying is he still a prophet? No, he wouldn't be. So let's see what the true history is on this.

"WAKE UP, YE ELDERS OF ISRAEL, AND LIVE TO GOD and none else and learn to do as you are told, both old and young: learn to do as you are told for the future. And when you are taking a position, if you do not know that you are right, do not take it-I mean independently. But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong." Journal of Discourses (Jod) 6:32

I guess JFS lied to someone about something because I can't imagine him not knowing about all of these.

I'll give a few more on a post without anyone's post quoted.