Amazing Grace

[Calm]

We could stretch the scriptures and read 1 Nephi in a way that supports the inclusion of those hymns.

I wish "O Canada" was in the hymnal, just so I could learn the words and sing along next time the Jazz play the Raptors.

Just FYI, many other language hymnbooks have some sort of national/traditional hymns from the regions that speak the language.

I thought i remember someone telling me that hymn books in canada have 'o canada' at the end but i can't remember for sure.

You can order "O Canada" from the Church Distribution Center, IIRC, to be placed into your wards' hymnbooks. We had it added to our hymnbooks up in Calgary. I wouldn't be surprised if you could do this with other national hymns, but not all wards take advantage of this.

PS: to learn the lyrics, see here: http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cp...cs/anthem_e.cfm

I prefer it to the Banner as I can sing it without cracking my voice.

[Maidservant]

Severian:

We sang a John Denver song at my dad's funeral. Kay, back up. My dad hated the Mormon church. But his parents and a lot of other fam were LDS, as far as, "Gee, where should we hold the funeral?" In the local LDS chapel, of course. ANYway, there was one song that my dad and I always liked to sing together, so I played the guitar and my sister and I sang (yes, in the chapel): "Hey, it's good to be back home again . . ."

Partial to Amazing Grace. Don't know as I need to see it in the hymnbook.

Not that doctrinal accuracy is 100% in the hymns now included: my fave "wha?": try Hymn 106 last lyrical phrase in the second verse: "If we fail, we fail with glory, God speed the right." Huh?

[exmo]

IMHO...I think ANY song that praises GOD and his Grace and Mercy should be sung...but being an ex-mormon, I find much more passion for Christ in other Christian music than I EVER found in the mormon hymn book. Besides, I sing PRAISES to GOD...Not "Praise to the Man" or "A Poor Wayfaring Man"...or even "If you High to Kolob"...such music should be banned and not sung by an entire congregation supposedly worshipping God on high.

[Hawkmoon]

IMHO...I think ANY song that praises GOD and his Grace and Mercy should be sung...but being an ex-mormon, I find much more passion for Christ in other Christian music than I EVER found in the mormon hymn book. Besides, I sing PRAISES to GOD...Not "Praise to the Man" or "A Poor Wayfaring Man"...or even "If you High to Kolob"...such music should be banned and not sung by an entire congregation supposedly worshipping God on high.

Just as this type of poster should be banned and their posts not read by any mb.

[exmo]

Just as this type of poster should be banned and their posts not read by any mb.

Please don't take your aggression out on me...I am but another human with thoughts and opinions of my own and am entitled to them, just as you are entitled to yours.

[myleague]

IMHO...I think ANY song that praises GOD and his Grace and Mercy should be sung...but being an ex-mormon, I find much more passion for Christ in other Christian music than I EVER found in the mormon hymn book. Besides, I sing PRAISES to GOD...Not "Praise to the Man" or "A Poor Wayfaring Man"...or even "If you High to Kolob"...such music should be banned and not sung by an entire congregation supposedly worshipping God on high.

Who exactly do you think the poor wayfaring man is? Maybe you should go back and read all the verses of the song before you pigeon hole the song as one praising MAN!

[bluebell]

IMHO...I think ANY song that praises GOD and his Grace and Mercy should be sung...but being an ex-mormon, I find much more passion for Christ in other Christian music than I EVER found in the mormon hymn book. Besides, I sing PRAISES to GOD...Not "Praise to the Man" or "A Poor Wayfaring Man"...or even "If you High to Kolob"...such music should be banned and not sung by an entire congregation supposedly worshipping God on high.

likewise-'if you could hie to kolob' is about being in the presence of God and living in His atmosphere.

Why should THAT be banned by people 'supposedly worshipping God on high'?

[ERMD]

IMHO...I think ANY song that praises GOD and his Grace and Mercy should be sung...but being an ex-mormon, I find much more passion for Christ in other Christian music than I EVER found in the mormon hymn book. Besides, I sing PRAISES to GOD...Not "Praise to the Man" or "A Poor Wayfaring Man"...or even "If you High to Kolob"...such music should be banned and not sung by an entire congregation supposedly worshipping God on high.

Seeking to ban "such music", eh? I'm aware of some religions and governments that have banned certain types of music and books...

[alter idem]

Here are the words to Amazing Grace from my Evangelical United Brethren Hymnbook:

"Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saveth men like me!

I once was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see."

"Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved:

How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed!"

"Thro' many dangers, toils and snare, I have already come;

"Tis grace has brought me safe thus far, and grace will lead me home."

"The Lord has promised good to me, his word my hope secures;

He will my shield and portion be as long as life endures."

Now, I've looked through these words and I don't see how they are "doctrinally unsound". To me, the sentiments expressed are the words of a person who has experienced the saving grace of the atonement of Jesus Christ in their life. It makes me think of Alma's descriptions of his own conversion found in the Book of Mormon.

Also, someone mentioned that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sang Amazing Grace on their tour recently. This is true--they sang it a number of times.

[Lightbearer]

IMHO...I think ANY song that praises GOD and his Grace and Mercy should be sung...but being an ex-mormon, I find much more passion for Christ in other Christian music than I EVER found in the mormon hymn book. Besides, I sing PRAISES to GOD...Not "Praise to the Man" or "A Poor Wayfaring Man"...or even "If you High to Kolob"...such music should be banned and not sung by an entire congregation supposedly worshipping God on high.

I will deal with the first part of your post in my next, but as for your assualt on the songs you mentioned I ask have you ever read the lirics to these songs you claim should be banned? Lets have a lesson:

Praise to the Man, Verse 1

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!

Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.

Blessed to open the last dispensation,

Kings shall extol him and nations revere.

"the man who communed with Jehovah! JESUS ANOINTED that Prophet and Seer." While I admit I should not expect to find it in a Baptist Hymnal I see no offense to God, in fact we are claiming in that verse that Joseph communed with God, that Jesus Christ anointed him to be a Prophet and a Seer. Where is the offence in this? Although I can understand that the reference in the chorus to "Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain." could be offensive from some perspectives. Next song on your hit list may be distressing since it was the favorite of the Prophet Joseph and was sung by John Taylor in Carthage Jail:

A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief, Verse 1

A poor wayfaring Man of grief

Hath often crossed me on my way,

Who sued so humbly for relief

That I could never answer nay.

I had not pow'r to ask his name,

Where-to he went, or whence he came;

Yet there was something in his eye

That won my love; I knew not why.

You may think that this is about the Prophet but it is not. I will not quote all the verses here but the last verse indicates who we are singing about:

A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief, Verse 7

Then in a moment to my view

The stranger started from disguise.

The tokens in his hands I knew;

The Savior stood before mine eyes.

He spake, and my poor name he named,

"Of me thou hast not been ashamed.

These deeds shall thy memorial be;

Fear not, thou didst them unto me."

In case you did not get it the song is about the parable in Matthew 25:31-46. As for "If you Could Hie to Kolob" I think Bluebell covered it nicely but just in case:

If You Could Hie to Kolob, Verse 1

If you could hie to Kolob

In the twinkling of an eye,

And then continue onward

With that same speed to fly,

Do you think that you could ever,

Through all eternity,

Find out the generation

Where Gods began to be?

If You Could Hie to Kolob, Verse 2

Or see the grand beginning,

Where space did not extend?

Or view the last creation,

Where Gods and matter end?

Me thinks the Spirit whispers,

"No man has found 'pure space,'

Nor seen the outside curtains,

Where nothing has a place."

If You Could Hie to Kolob, Verse 3

The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

If You Could Hie to Kolob, Verse 4

There is no end to virtue;

There is no end to might;

There is no end to wisdom;

There is no end to light.

There is no end to union;

There is no end to youth;

There is no end to priesthood;

There is no end to truth.

If You Could Hie to Kolob, Verse 5

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

There is no end to glory;

There is no end to love;

There is no end to being;

There is no death above.

[Lightbearer]

IMHO...I think ANY song that praises GOD and his Grace and Mercy should be sung...but being an ex-mormon, I find much more passion for Christ in other Christian music than I EVER found in the mormon hymn book.

Now for this part of your post I submit the following hymns from the LDS Hymnbook:

I Know That My Redeemer Lives, Verse 1

I know that my Redeemer lives.

What comfort this sweet sentence gives!

He lives, he lives, who once was dead.

He lives, my everliving Head.

He lives to bless me with his love.

He lives to plead for me above.

He lives my hungry soul to feed.

He lives to bless in time of need.

I Know That My Redeemer Lives, Verse 2

He lives to grant me rich supply.

He lives to guide me with his eye.

He lives to comfort me when faint.

He lives to hear my soul's complaint.

He lives to silence all my fears.

He lives to wipe away my tears.

He lives to calm my troubled heart.

He lives all blessings to impart.

I Know That My Redeemer Lives, Verse 3

He lives, my kind, wise heav'nly Friend.

He lives and loves me to the end.

He lives, and while he lives, I'll sing.

He lives, my Prophet, Priest, and King.

He lives and grants me daily breath.

He lives, and I shall conquer death.

He lives my mansion to prepare.

He lives to bring me safely there.

I Know That My Redeemer Lives, Verse 4

He lives! All glory to his name!

He lives, my Savior, still the same.

Oh, sweet the joy this sentence gives:

"I know that my Redeemer lives!"

He lives! All glory to his name!

He lives, my Savior, still the same.

Oh, sweet the joy this sentence gives:

"I know that my Redeemer lives!"

Or what about the following?

Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King, Verse 1

Jesus of Nazareth,

Savior and King!

Triumphant over death,

Life thou didst bring,

Leaving thy Father's throne,

On earth to live,

Thy work to do alone,

Thy life to give.

Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King, Verse 2

While of this broken bread

Humbly we eat,

Our thoughts to thee are led

In rev'rence sweet.

Bruised, broken, torn for us

On Calvary's hill

Thy suff'ring borne for us

Lives with us still.

Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King, Verse 3

As to our lips the cup

Gently we press,

Our hearts are lifted up,

Thy name we bless!

Guide us where'er we go,

Till in the end

Life evermore we'll know

Through thee, our Friend.

Or maybe this one written by an LDS Apostle Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

I Believe in Christ, Verse 1

I believe in Christ; he is my King!

With all my heart to him I'll sing;

I'll raise my voice in praise and joy,

In grand amens my tongue employ.

I believe in Christ; he is God's Son.

On earth to dwell his soul did come.

He healed the sick; the dead he raised.

Good works were his; his name be praised.

I Believe in Christ, Verse 2

I believe in Christ; oh, blessed name!

As Mary's Son he came to reign

'Mid mortal men, his earthly kin,

To save them from the woes of sin.

I believe in Christ, who marked the path,

Who did gain all his Father hath,

Who said to men: "Come, follow me,

That ye, my friends, with God may be."

I Believe in Christ, Verse 3

I believe in Christ--my Lord, my God!

My feet he plants on gospel sod.

I'll worship him with all my might;

He is the source of truth and light.

I believe in Christ; he ransoms me.

From Satan's grasp he sets me free,

And I shall live with joy and love

In his eternal courts above.

I Believe in Christ, Verse 4

I believe in Christ; he stands supreme!

From him I'll gain my fondest dream;

And while I strive through grief and pain,

His voice is heard: "Ye shall obtain."

I believe in Christ; so come what may,

With him I'll stand in that great day

When on this earth he comes again

To rule among the sons of men.

Enough said.

[Teancum]

On a previous thread, Mormon apologist Daniel C. Peterson characterized the song â??Amazing Graceâ? as a â??great hymn.â? T-shirt, presumably an LDS poster, opined that it is â??unfortunateâ? that Amazing Grace is not in the LDS hymnbookâ??but he/she noted encouragingly that it is preformed on occasion by the Tabernacle Choir (along with many other non-LDS and secular songs).

These pro-Amazing Grace sentiments were sharply countermanded by another, presumably LDS poster, Maklelan, who stated: â??It's doctrinally unsound, according to the First Presidency. That's why it's not in the hymnbook.â?

In a time when the prevailing LDS sentiment seems to be to try and co-opt any and all things Christian, Maklelanâ??s post felt like a blast from the past.

Regrettably, Maklelan didnâ??t furnish a reference for his â??according to the First Presidencyâ? assertion. None-the-less, Iâ??d like to hear from any LDS who support Maklelanâ??s view (and presumably the view of the Mormon First Presidency). Why is Amazing Grace doctrinally unsound, according to Mormonism?

--Erik

Read Mosiah Chapters 27-28 and then tell me if you think it is doctrinally unsound for the LDS Church. I don't.

[alter idem]

Read Mosiah Chapters 27-28 and then tell me if you think it is doctrinally unsound for the LDS Church. I don't.

Yes, Teancum. My sentiments exactly. If the words are "doctrinally unsound" with LDS belief, I'd like someone to point out how.

[Hawkmoon]

Please don't take your aggression out on me...I am but another human with thoughts and opinions of my own and am entitled to them, just as you are entitled to yours.

Heh-heh... I am guessing you fail to see the irony in your post above. I will include your previous post with the hope that you will figure out-- doubtful as that may be.

IMHO...I think ANY song that praises GOD and his Grace and Mercy should be sung...but being an ex-mormon, I find much more passion for Christ in other Christian music than I EVER found in the mormon hymn book. Besides, I sing PRAISES to GOD...Not "Praise to the Man" or "A Poor Wayfaring Man"...or even "If you High to Kolob"...such music should be banned and not sung by an entire congregation supposedly worshipping God on high.

[ErikJohnson]

Wow, two false dichotomies in one poll! What economy!!

Of course, to be fair to Erik, probably only one of them was intentional.

As you know, Erik, Latter-day Saints are Christians by definition. There was no poll option for Latter-day Saint Christians. No doubt you pulled that one on purpose.

However, I attribute the second one to your superficial world view. I think Amazing Grace is a great hymn. I also think it is doctrinally unsound.

Regards,

Pahoran

Hello Pahoran--

Sorry for not getting back sooner. With regard to your claim, "As you know, Erik, LDS are Christian by definition"--please let me set the record straight: I know no such thing. Now that said, I'm certainly aware some broad definitions of "Christian" get floated on this board (so broad that JWs and sometimes even Muslims clear the bar). But that doesn't mean I accept them. Let me cite for you a definition of "Christian Religion" from a widely used source (Dictionary.com)â??and feel free to tell me how Mormonism qualifies as such:

A monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior.

And I would add my personal view that to be a Christian one must know who Jesus is, one must recognize and worship Him as God. Just as the Apostle Thomas recognized when he beheld the risen Christ, "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28). Entirely consistent with the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. If one claims to have a relationship with Christ (i.e., to be a Christian) and then describes Him as "a God" (as per the LDS Bible Dictionary) or one of the Gods, or an "elder brother" or anything less than God, then we have a strong, Biblically-based reason to believe that claim is false and the person making the claim is deceived. To make a rough analogy, imagine someone claimed to know Clint Eastwood and then described him as a tall black man with a thick Bostonian accent. Obviously it's not the real Clint Eastwood (at least not the actor/director most readily associated with the name).

So you see Pahoran, your assertion regarding my knowledge that LDS are Christian missed the mark badly. Hopefully this will help you to be better informed (or at least more careful) the next time.

Warm regards,

--Erik

[Daniel Peterson]

With regard to your claim, "As you know, Erik, LDS are Christian by definition"--please let me set the record straight: I know no such thing.

That's a very candid admission, and I think Erik deserves a lot of credit for the courage that it must have taken to say it publicly. Not everybody is so frank about challenges and defects.

I'm certainly aware some broad definitions of "Christian" get floated on this board (so broad that JWs and sometimes even Muslims clear the bar).

Jehovah's Witnesses, as far as I can tell, should "clear the bar." According to two thousand years of usage in scores of languages, they qualify. (I've made a lengthy and detailed argument on this very matter in a book entitled Offenders for a Word.)

I'd be very curious, though, to see a definition that includes Muslims within Christianity. That strikes me -- and would strike any sane Muslim -- as extraordinarily implausible.

Let me cite for you a definition of "Christian Religion" from a widely used source (Dictionary.com)â??and feel free to tell me how Mormonism qualifies as such:

A monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior.

I'd like to take a shot at this one: Mormonism clearly qualifies under this definition because it is a monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior.

And I would add my personal view that to be a Christian one must know who Jesus is, one must recognize and worship Him as God.

Historically, that's plainly untrue. The word Christian has traditionally been used to cover a whole range of Christologies.

Extreme evangelical Protestants need to understand that their recent, noisy, provincial little subfaction of Christendom can't simply come in and re-write the dictionary according their whims.

So you see Pahoran, your assertion regarding my knowledge that LDS are Christian missed the mark badly.

Wow. He really doesn't know it!

[helix]

So you see Pahoran, your assertion regarding my knowledge that LDS are Christian missed the mark badly. Hopefully this will help you to be better informed (or at least more careful) the next time.

Warm regards,

--Erik

I've never understood why some posts end with rather rude remarks immediately followed by a kindhearted closing. It seems strange.

And anyone who disagrees with me should die a horrible, horrible death.

With love,

Helix.

[Maidservant]

Monotheistic. Check.

Beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament. Check.

Beliefs and practices based on the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament. Check.

Emphasizes the role of Jesus as Savior. Check.

There goes my jaw to the floor as again, I contemplate how I can believe in Jesus Christ and that he has atoned for my sins, and yet not be a Christian.

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christians?

And I am aware that Muslims are looking for Jesus Christ to return to reign personally on the earth. I haven't yet heard a Muslim state a need for a Savior.

[Cold Steel]

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (we are all wretches without Christ) But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

God alone is the one who saves....amazing!

...and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus....

Yes, but before we go all glassy-eyed and begin swooning and swaying, we have to remember that the salvation wrought by God was not only the result of grace, but of real and horrific sufferingâ??suffering that we cannot fathom. We also should remember that it was part of a carefully orchastrated plan of redemption which allows men, as God's crowning achievement, to avail ourselves of God's grace and become as Christ.

Are we "wretches"? Certainly, but then we were born imperfect as part of our heritage, and it's not entirely our fault. And we being "children of wrath," must also acknowledge Jesus as having experienced that wrath so that if we repent, we might not have to suffer it ourselves.

Again, grace is only half of it. The atonement is what made grace effective, for without the atonement grace would account for nothing. So when I read the verses of Amazing Grace, and see not one reference to Christ or the atonement, it's no small wonder that it's not in our hymnals.

[Smith]

Personally I cant stand the hymn Amazing Grace. It was sung to death in school and played to death on all sorts of instruments, may it rest in peace. Having said that and for that matter there are hymns in the current book that I cant stand either, Battle Hymn of the Republic and the American Anthems, and then the funeral songs, Abide with Me and God be with You. I just cant handle them.

[alter idem]

Cold Steel said: "Again, grace is only half of it. The atonement is what made grace effective, for without the atonement grace would account for nothing."

Alter Idem: I strongly disagree-Grace is not half of it--without Grace--there is nothing. Grace is an integral part of the Atonement. To quote King Benjamin in Mosiah; "I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith.."

We have no power to save ourselves or even exalt ourselves. We need to face the reality that without the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, all is lost. To those who would think that they can in any way "save" themselves, I quote King Benjamin again; "I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another--I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants."

CS: "So when I read the verses of Amazing Grace, and see not one reference to Christ or the atonement, it's no small wonder that it's not in our hymnals."

AI: Why would you think this? There are plenty of Hymns in our hymnal which don't mention Christ or the atonemement and yet they are acceptable for Sabbath worship. "Amazing Grace" may not mention Christ or the Atonement in those exact words, but that is most definitely the message which is conveyed.

[Redeemed]

I suppose anyone could look them up, but I think it would be nice to post the words to the song so people can more easily judge their doctrinal worthiness....

I see a bit of OSAS in it (bolded) but it depends on how you look at it. Also we can still be saved from the entanglements of the world by being born again, but that is not salvation.

I might have voted for the second option, but it does not correctly describe my opinion. I think the way it was intended, it is doctrinally unsound, but I don't consider it a threat; so I didn't vote at all.

When you are born again, you become a new creation in Christ Jesus and it is salvation.

be blessed,

redeemed

[Cold Steel]

I strongly disagree-Grace is not half of itâ??without Graceâ??there is nothing. Grace is an integral part of the Atonement. To quote King Benjamin in Mosiah; "I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance, the greatness of God, and your own nothingness, and his goodness and long-suffering towards you, unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith...."

You say you strongly disagree, then you end up agreeing. Grace is an "integral part" of the atonement, but it's the atonement that is undergirding everything. Muslims sometimes taunt Christians by reminding us that:

* God is all powerful.

* There is nothing that God cannot do.

* If God chose to, he could forgive man using only grace; no one would have to die.

So what would have happened if Christ had decided not to go through with the agonizing ordeal? What if He had removed the bitter cup Himself? According to latter-day revelation, the entire Earth, with all of its dead would have been lost and the entire creation would have been for naught. All things would have reverted to what they were before the creation. Of course, other Christians disagree, yet they don't really know what would have happened if the atonement had not taken place. A pertinent question is, why would God suffer that His Only Begotten Son face His wrath if it weren't absolutely necessary?

Grace and the atonement go hand-in-hand. Amazing Grace never mentions either Christ or the atonement, and I strongly suspect that's the reason it's not in our hymn books. Our sacrament prayer states that we should "always remember Him." We're frequently reminded about the atonement, but grace is self-evident; it's the result of the atonement, not vice versa. Many Christians feel that the atonement was a result of grace, and I suspect an argument can be made for that. But based on your comments, I think we agree. If not, could you elaborate?

We have no power to save ourselves or even exalt ourselves. We need to face the reality that without the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, all is lost. To those who would think that they can in any way "save" themselves, I quote King Benjamin again; I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another â?? I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

Again, we find no disagreement here.

CS: So when I read the verses of Amazing Grace, and see not one reference to Christ or the atonement, it's no small wonder that it's not in our hymnals.

AI: Why would you think this? There are plenty of Hymns in our hymnal which don't mention Christ or the atonemement and yet they are acceptable for Sabbath worship. "Amazing Grace" may not mention Christ or the Atonement in those exact words, but that is most definitely the message which is conveyed.

It would not be difficult to rewrite the subsequent verses of the hymn to add both Christ and the atonement. I also would not set about to do a letter-writing campaign should the song be added as is. Another niggling thing that bothers me about it is the use of the word "wretch." True, the natural man is an enemy to God, but wretch is defined as: "A miserable, unfortunate, or unhappy person, or a person regarded as base, mean, or despicable." A goodly number of us were not wretches before accepting the gospel and the word just doesn't seem quite appropriate for an entire congregation.

Now when you say, that there are "plenty of Hymns in our hymnal which don't mention Christ or the atonemement," I would ask for a few examples. As I see it, the atonement and grace are so inextricably linked that one cannot talk about one to the exclusion of the other. Is this not so?

[alter idem]

Hi CS, Thanks for your comments. I guess I should say that I don't distinguish between "grace" and the "atonement" maybe as much as some LDS. To me, Grace is the Atonement. Actually, that is the statement I made originally and then changed it to "Grace is an integral part of the Atonement" in my earlier post.

CS said; "So what would have happened if Christ had decided not to go through with the agonizing ordeal? What if He had removed the bitter cup Himself? According to latter-day revelation, the entire Earth, with all of its dead would have been lost and the entire creation would have been for naught. All things would have reverted to what they were before the creation. Of course, other Christians disagree, yet they don't really know what would have happened if the atonement had not taken place. A pertinent question is, why would God suffer that His Only Begotten Son face His wrath if it weren't absolutely necessary?"

AI: No disagreements here.

CS: "Grace and the atonement go hand-in-hand. Amazing Grace never mentions either Christ or the atonement, and I strongly suspect that's the reason it's not in our hymn books. Our sacrament prayer states that we should "always remember Him." We're frequently reminded about the atonement, but grace is self-evident; it's the result of the atonement, not vice versa. Many Christians feel that the atonement was a result of grace, and I suspect an argument can be made for that. But based on your comments, I think we agree. If not, could you elaborate?"

AI: As I mentioned above, Grace to me, is the atonement. I don't single them out or separate the two.

CS: "It would not be difficult to rewrite the subsequent verses of the hymn to add both Christ and the atonement. I also would not set about to do a letter-writing campaign should the song be added as is. Another niggling thing that bothers me about it is the use of the word "wretch." True, the natural man is an enemy to God, but wretch is defined as: "A miserable, unfortunate, or unhappy person, or a person regarded as base, mean, or despicable." A goodly number of us were not wretches before accepting the gospel and the word just doesn't seem quite appropriate for an entire congregation."

AI: I posted the words to "Amazing Grace" from the EUB Hymnal on an earlier post (I believe page three) and you'll notice that they used the word "man" not "wretch" so if that's what's bothering you, apparently you are not alone, as this version is changed. I think if you'll read through the words to the hymn you'll find that they express the joy of a person who has faith in the power of the atonement to save.

CS: "Now when you say, that there are "plenty of Hymns in our hymnal which don't mention Christ or the atonemement," I would ask for a few examples. As I see it, the atonement and grace are so inextricably linked that one cannot talk about one to the exclusion of the other. Is this not so?"

AI: I agree that one cannot talk about one to the exclusion of the other. However, songwriters don't always express themselves the same as we might. It was interesting to find that there is not a subject heading for "atonement" in our hymnbook-it directs us to see "Jesus Christ, Sacrament etc." but there is a heading for "grace".

A few examples are "Come unto Him" #114, "Come Ye Disconsolate" #115, "Children of our Heavenly Father" #299, "God is Love" #87, "Come Ye thankful People Come" #94, "Come, come ye saints" #30...I could go on. Truth is, if you look at many of our hymns they say nothing about Jesus or the Atonement.

I think "Come unto him" and "Come ye disconsolate" are very similar to Amazing Grace in that the sentiments expressed talk about the joy and comfort the Savior brings but neither hymn mentions Jesus or the atonement at all. You mentioned re-writing a few words to mention Jesus or the atonement, but after looking at these examples in our hymnbook, I don't see that as being necessary to make it acceptable to be included in our hymnbook. I think the assumption is that even if it is not expressly stated, the message is there and the spirit is able to turn our thoughts to the Savior and the atonement.

Now, since we've had this little conversation, I bet tomorrow in church we'll be noticing the words to the hymns more.

[bluebell]

I've never understood why some posts end with rather rude remarks immediately followed by a kindhearted closing. It seems strange.

And anyone who disagrees with me should die a horrible, horrible death.

With love,

Helix.