Amazing Grace

[Doctor Steuss]

I voted â??Iâ??m LDS and I believe Amazing Grace is a great hymn and should be included as an LDS hymn,â? because nothing else matched my sentiments.

Iâ??m LDS, and I think itâ??s overrated. It has a beautiful message, and I donâ??t exactly see any â??doctrinalâ? issues with it, but the tune/orchestration/composition of it is rather blah to me.

[smac97]

So did I, at my father's LDS funeral.

My extended family has sung it at virtually every funeral for family members I've ever attended.

-Smac

[alter idem]

"Amazing Grace", when sung properly (not crooning and pop-style which is totally inappropriate and obnoxious) is one of the most beautiful and inspiring hymns we have. I predict it will be in our Hymnbook some time in the future. There is nothing wrong with the words of the song, or the sentiments it expresses.

I've asked that "Amazing Grace" be played at my funeral because I can understand completely the sentiment the author was trying to convey.

Truthfully, any song can become inappropriate for church worship if performed improperly. I attended a Young Adult Fireside with my Husband recently and a YA choir sang "I stand all amazed". Unfortunately, they had a young woman sing the first verse as a solo at the microphone and she scooped and crooned all through it. I felt annoyed and disgusted--not inspired. Singing like a pop star on American Idol can ruin the message of any hymn--no matter how inspired or sacred the message.

[Severian]

If it were included in the hymnal (like I think it should be) then those LDS who have a problem with it could simply sing "Amazing Works" instead.

[Homestar Runner]

Random thoughts:

* I've also requested a bagpiper to play Amazing Grace at my (hopefully LDS) funeral. My (also LDS) cousin, has requested They Might Be Giants Road Movie To Berlin, which I'll probably have to smuggle in past all the TBM's.

* The MoTab has also sung the Black Speech of Mordor for the video game The Battle of Middle Earth.

HSR

[MorningStar]

I'm not especially fond of the tune, but the song really loses me at "wretch". I just don't like it. I wouldn't really care if it were in our hymn book though and I would gladly trade it for "True to the Faith". It sounds like high school band music they play at football games.

[bluebell]

I'm not especially fond of the tune, but the song really loses me at "wretch". I just don't like it. I wouldn't really care if it were in our hymn book though and I would gladly trade it for "True to the Faith". It sounds like high school band music they play at football games.

I agree on the 'true to the faith' thing. I've always disliked that song. It sounds like a primary song that should have stayed in primary.

[Tsuzuki]

Mormons are Trinitarian.

[HiJolly]

* The MoTab has also sung the Black Speech of Mordor for the video game The Battle of Middle Earth.

HSR

I'm interested in more about that. Please tell us more!

Here's an article I enjoyed about Mormons and Grace:

==========

Mormons and Grace

"Thou hast made me" (incarnation), and given unto me a right to thy throne

(exaltation), and not of myself, but through thine own grace" (Moses 7:59).

According to Enoch, it's ALL grace, from incarnation to exaltation! Without

the grace of God, you wouldn't even be here to argue about it.

The things we do are not what save us, according to LDS teaching. Rather, we

are saved by grace. The idea that we are "saved by grace but exalted by

works" is simply false, as numerous LDS scholars have noted. For instance:

Robert L. Millet, Steadfast and Immovable: Striving for Spiritual Maturity,

p.119

Are works unimportant, then? Doesn't it matter what we do? Of course works

matter. Of course it matters what we do. But the scriptures attest again and

again that it is not our works that save us. . . . Some people say that we

are saved by the grace of Christ but exalted by our works. That also is

false. Our works evidence our faith in Christ and our desire to follow him

and rely upon his atoning grace. But there are simply not enough loaves of

bread to bake or home teaching visits to make or meetings to attend to save

me from the woes of sin; such requires the mediation of a God. The strangest

matter of all is that it is his works-the works of Christ-that save us. Thus

Lehi declared to Jacob: "Wherefore, I know that thou art redeemed, because

of the righteousness of thy Redeemer." Indeed, as Lehi went on to say,

"There is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through

the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah." (2 Nephi 2:3, 8;

italics added; compare Alma 22:14.)

A rather lengthy response by Monte S. Nyman details the four doctrinal

errors (from an LDS standpoint) involved in the idea that we are "saved by

grace but exalted by works." We have discussed three of them here already,

but I'll let Brother Nyman summarize for your benefit:

Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., Second Nephi: The Doctrinal

Structure, p.94-95

The reasoning [of some LDS] runs as follows. On the cross, the Savior gave

up his life and overcame physical death through the resurrection, which gift

he gives freely to all. Since no one has to do anything to be resurrected,

this is an unconditional blessing and explains how we are "saved by grace"

without any works on our part. We don't have to do anything; the grace of

Christ resurrects everyone. But, the explanation continues, there is a

second spiritual part of the redemption which cannot be overlooked and that

was done in the Garden of Gethsemane. Here the Savior took upon himself the

sins of the world and suffered for all mankind. This suffering redeems the

soul from hell, but this gift is not unconditional. Here men must do certain

things to have this redemption operate in their behalf. This could be

thought of, so the explanation continues, as exaltation by our works. Thus,

the conclusion runs, we are saved (resurrected) by grace but we are exalted

(redeemed) by our works. This is a neat and attractive explanation. The only

problem is it has four major doctrinal errors.

The first doctrinal error in this explanation is that somehow salvation is

different from exaltation. With very few exceptions, the scriptures almost

always use the word salvation as synonymous with exaltation. For example, in

Doctrine and Covenants 6:13, the Lord says, "If thou wilt do good, yea, and

hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God,

which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater

than the gift of salvation" (emphasis added). To imply that salvation means

only resurrection cannot be supported by scripture.

The second doctrinal error is the idea that the suffering and death on the

cross covered only the effects of physical death and that the suffering in

the Garden covered only the effects of spiritual death. Such an explanation

is not justified by scripture either. The agony in the Garden and the

suffering on the cross were both integral parts of the atoning sacrifice. No

where in the scriptures do we find indications that the cross alone overcame

physical death or that the Garden alone overcame spiritual death.

The third error is the idea that our works exalt us. As we have seen, one of

Lehi's fundamental points is that no man can be justified, or saved, on the

basis of works alone. It is by the merits, mercy and grace of the Holy

Messiah (see 2 Nephi 2: that we are saved. We are exalted by righteous

works, but they are the Savior's works, not our own. This is what Nephi

meant when he said "for we know that it is by grace [which quality the

Messiah is filled with-see 2 Nephi 2:6] we are saved, after all we can do"

(2 Nephi 25:23).

The fourth error in this . . . explanation is the idea that overcoming

spiritual death is conditional upon how we live. It really depends on the

Savior. Our second Article of Faith states, "We believe that men will be

punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression." If that is

true, then to make coming back into the presence of God (overcoming

spiritual death) conditional, when our separation from him was originally

caused by the fall of Adam, would mean we do suffer punishment for Adam's

transgression and such is not the case.

=======

The Mormon Tabernacle Choir was in Tennesee (both Nashville & Memphis) recently and sang "Amazing Grace" in those concerts at the request of Elder Todd Christofferson, the Area Authority.

HiJolly

[ERMD]

I voted for number two because that hymn is doctrinally unsound...at least the way in which it was intended. For many years I disliked the song "How Great Thou Art" which is included in the LDS hymnbook, although some of the words have been altered which actually make it more appealing to me personally, and I have come to like it over the years, although it still is not one of my favorites. Being from the South I guess I associate both of these hymns with the Baptist Church, I had to attend a Baptist Private School in the 8th grade and was persecuted mercilessly by the so-called Christians there for being a Mormon, so I guess I am a little biased against these hymns. However, the category I would have prefered would have been: A Great hymn ( I think instrumentally with bag pipes it is wonderful) but I am glad it is not currently in the LDS hymn book.

As for your statement:We do not need to co-opt anything from anyone else because we have the fullness of the Gospel so there is really nothing you have to offer us. Another "blast from the past."

Years ago, our ward choir was going to sing "How Great Thou Art". It was vetoed by the visiting High Councilman. I'm sure he felt a bit silly when it came out in the next hymnal a couple of years later. As I recall, it was Pres. Benson's favorite (no source, sorry).

[Homestar Runner]

* The MoTab has also sung the Black Speech of Mordor for the video game The Battle of Middle Earth.

I'm interested in more about that. Please tell us more!

Composer interview

This link has pictures, and says:

I contracted an ensemble of singers, most of whom perform with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, and they far surpassed my expectations.

The Rise and Fall of Sauron. For Sauron's theme, we took the inscription from the Ring of Power - "Ash nazg durbatuluk, Ash nazg gimbatul, Ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum, Ishi krimpatuland" - and set it to music. This is sung twice in Sauron's theme, once with men only singing in a profoundly low octave, and the second time with full choir, including sopranos wailing on the top end. The singers were just way too good at this. I said to them, "What's your choir director going to say when you tell him you've been singing the Black Speech of Mordor?"

The Song of the Dwarves. When we started this piece, the singing was exceptional, but the feel of the caverns and the monotonous labor of the Dwarves was just not coming through. I asked the men's choir to march in place, and to sway from side to side for the next take, and their singing was totally altered. It was uncanny. As Tolkien videographer John Pratt later wrote: "To my amazement, simply excellent singing was transformed into the grandeur of generations of tireless hammers echoing into songs of celebration in the finished halls of Khazad-d

[bluebell]

I'm interested in more about that. Please tell us more!

Composer interview

This link has pictures, and says:

and

(I got the game a few years back, and yes, the singing does sound great. In fact, the game was one of the best games I've ever played on a PC, and it stayed wonderfully true to the movies (which stayed outstandingly true to the Tolkein original, imo)).

One of the many game review links.

HSR

man, now i want to hear the soundtrack for that video game but have no desire to play the game. This is a dilema.

[Cold Steel]

Amazing Grace with bagpipes. It always reminds me of Spock's funeral.

Actually, the only doctrinal problem I have with the hymn is that it perhaps puts too much emphasis on grace. Grace, which is defined as mercy, or a disposition to generosity, or even a reprieve, is only possible when applied in conjunction with the atonement. The Latter-day Saints believe in a plan of salvation. Due to God's foreknowledge, Adam and Eve were placed in an environment where they were supposed to fall. The atonement was also planned in the Beginning even before the fall.

Protestant doctrine teaches that the fall placed man in jeopardy, leading him to a well justified condemnation to hell. But because of the atonement, and through mercy (grace), man would be redeemed to his former relationship with God. Could grace have negated the need for the atonement? Could God have forgiven man without the sacrifice? Mormons believe that the atonement was absolutely necessary to the salvation of mankind. Thus, grace, without the atonement, means nothing.

Amazing Grace doesn't even mention the atonement. Rather than typifying man's relationship to God, it refers to a "wretch" who, through grace, comes to God. It ignores the atonement and even ignores coming to God through Christ, who's not even mentioned. In short, grace alone doesn't save anyone; it is the atoning blood of Christ. For all the complaining people do about Mormons allegingly not being Christian, we shouldn't have to point all this out. If we put it in our hymnbook, we should at least edit it to include some references to Christ, don't you think?

[LDSBruin]

I wonder, if we don't include "Amazing Grace" due to it's not being doctrinal, should we include "The Star-Spangled Banner" or "America the Beautiful"? Neither has a lick of Mormon doctrine in their text, and we all know that Zion is found wherever the Saints congregate, not specifically in the USA.

Just FYI, many other language hymnbooks have some sort of national/traditional hymns from the regions that speak the language.

[Thama]

Just FYI, many other language hymnbooks have some sort of national/traditional hymns from the regions that speak the language.

The Spanish hymnal doesn't, and I don't speak the other languages to know. There are a lot of Spanish-speaking countries, but then again, there are a lot of English-speaking countries unrepresented in the hymnal as well.

[Pahoran]

Wow, two false dichotomies in one poll! What economy!!

Of course, to be fair to Erik, probably only one of them was intentional.

As you know, Erik, Latter-day Saints are Christians by definition. There was no poll option for Latter-day Saint Christians. No doubt you pulled that one on purpose.

However, I attribute the second one to your superficial world view. I think Amazing Grace is a great hymn. I also think it is doctrinally unsound.

Regards,

Pahoran

[bluebell]

The Spanish hymnal doesn't, and I don't speak the other languages to know. There are a lot of Spanish-speaking countries, but then again, there are a lot of English-speaking countries unrepresented in the hymnal as well.

I thought i remember someone telling me that hymn books in canada have 'o canada' at the end but i can't remember for sure.

[LDSBruin]

The Spanish hymnal doesn't, and I don't speak the other languages to know. There are a lot of Spanish-speaking countries, but then again, there are a lot of English-speaking countries unrepresented in the hymnal as well.

Yeah, I don't know about Spanish, but Finnish, Swedish, German at least have them.

[maklelan]

Yeah, I don't know about Spanish, but Finnish, Swedish, German at least have them.

Spanish most definitely does not, and I always assumed it was because too many different countries would use the same hymnal (we sang the Uruguay national hymn in sacrament on their independence day and it was ridiculous), but I'm looking through the German hymnal and their national hymn is not in here. Many German's don't even know it and I understand they're leery of people who do. Hitler, after all, was the one who established it. National pride is a sensitive issue for many of them. Deutschland, Deutschland, uber al!

[LDSBruin]

Spanish most definitely does not, and I always assumed it was because too many different countries would use the same hymnal (we sang the Uruguay national hymn in sacrament on their independence day and it was ridiculous), but I'm looking through the German hymnal and their national hymn is not in here. Many German's don't even know it and I understand they're leery of people who do. Hitler, after all, was the one who established it. National pride is a sensitive issue for many of them. Deutschland, Deutschland, uber al!

Correct, the national anthem is not in the German hymn book, nor is it in the others I referenced. But I thought other local cultural hymns are. I'll admit I do not speak German very well and do not have a copy, but I do own the Swedish and Finnish ones and can vouch for them. (Ode to Joy is in the German hymnal if I'm not mistaken? Correct me if I'm wrong?) Anyway, I didn't mean to derail the thread.

[freakin a man]

I would not mind Amazing Grace to be put in the Hymn book. Of course I would not mind Popcorn song being included too. I do think that Amazing Grace is a little overrated. Its a nice song but I can think of a dozen or two songs I rather listen to.

[HiJolly]

I'm interested in more about that. Please tell us more!

Composer interview

This link has pictures, and says:

and

(I got the game a few years back, and yes, the singing does sound great. In fact, the game was one of the best games I've ever played on a PC, and it stayed wonderfully true to the movies (which stayed outstandingly true to the Tolkein original, imo)).

One of the many game review links.

HSR

Wow - that's great! Thanks.

HiJolly

[Fly Fisherman]

I would love to see the hymn added and sung in church meetings. A number of years ago, I was in the bishopric of my ward, and a woman sang the hymn during Sacrament Meeting. I was conducting that day, and mentioned that it is one of my favorite Christian hymns. The woman was hesitant to sing it because of her fear that some members may not like it. She received many compliments after the meeting.

Not to as this has been discussed much on here lately, but the LDS doctrine on Grace may not be exactly what EV's propose on Grace, but in all honesty, I think the LDS doctrine of Grace (that which is taught in the scriptures anyway), is much closer to EV's doctrine on Grace than most Latter-Day Saints realize.

[Cold Steel]

In discussing grace, the Book of Mormon authors always use it in conjunction with other aspects of the gospel. Moroni, for example, writes:

Yea, acome unto Christ, and be bperfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your csins, that ye become holy, without spot. (Moroni 10:31-33)

It's not from lack of trying. The Book of Mormon does teach grace, but grace alone is not sufficient. It required a blood sacrifice, and this is what we emphasize.

[AZBeliever]

I think this is a great song, especially after you haven't heard it in a while. My non LDS church sings it every now and then with the traditional melody for a couple of stanzas and then a more contemporary tune- pretty neat. I think it is doctrinally accurate, especially given the strong indictment of man and God's amazing grace portrayed in Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (we are all wretches without Christ) 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

God alone is the one who saves....amazing!

AZBeliever