Anti's At Manti

[LifeOnaPlate]

I served my mission in Wisconsin, and by far the most hostile, rude, suspicious people I encountered were "born again" Christian, non-denominations, evangelical. I would have to agree that, from my experience, the evangelical movement, as evidenced by their bookstores, their sermons dedicated to mocking the LDS Church, and the general hostility of the evangelicals I met, are the most hostile group, or at least as hostile as Southern Baptists.

[rhinomelon]

I believe that I have consistently noted:

-- For the most part, those who do participate in these sorts of activities ARE Evangelicals. I don't think you can dispute that.

-- That these countercult ministries draw their support from fellow Evangelicals and Evangelical churches. I don't think that is in dispute.

-- That the tendency of Evangelical countercult ministries to be so aggressive, negative, and attack oriented comes from something in the Evangelical psyche. that notion is supported by the fact that the vast majority of countercult ministries are organized and supported by Evangelicals. I think that is a fair statement.

I could agree with the above three statements, although I would point out that there is also the difference between evangelicals and fundamentalists to consider. Many of the so-called "evangelical" street-preachers are really hard-core fundamentalists who also condemn most of evangelicalism. For example, one protestor I've spoken with twice at different times also protests Billy Graham, Promise Keepers, and other much more mainstream evangelical individuals and organizations. Perhaps this is why I have a hard time with people trying to let the extremists speak for the majority; speaking from experience, many of these extremists are just as attack-oriented regarding many evangelicals!

I also appreciate the distinction made between countercult ministries and evangelicals in general. That is important to keep in mind, because the countercult industry is not a large part of evangelicalism as a whole. This is amply demonstrated simply by the numbers of publications or funds that these countercultists enjoy; it is not much compared to what other ministries and organizations receive or publish.

I am curious, however. What part of the evangelical "psyche" do you believe is largely responsible for the demeanor of most professional countercultists?

-- That for the most part, when the non-protesting Evangelicals discuss religion with a so-called cultist, they tend to believe and reflect the negative, hostile, attack-oriented approaches they are familiar with from their fellow Evangelical countercult brothers and sisters. Based on the evidences shared over many threads, I think this is a fair statement.

This is where we part ways to a large extent. I think most evangelicals have not really studied the LDS beliefs in any real way. They usually have the same sorts of general misconceptions that most people have regarding LDS, i.e. polygamy and not being allowed to drink Coke. This was my experience attending an evangelical college with students from all fifty states and a few dozen countries besides. Their knowledge (or lack thereof) is not based on hostility or prejudice, but on lack of direct experience and lack of any real need or desire to find out more. For most evangelicals, Mormonism is very much a non-issue. It's something that they've heard this-or-that about, but not much else.

Take care, everyone

[T-Shirt]

This is where we part ways to a large extent. I think most evangelicals have not really studied the LDS beliefs in any real way. They usually have the same sorts of general misconceptions that most people have regarding LDS, i.e. polygamy and not being allowed to drink Coke. This was my experience attending an evangelical college with students from all fifty states and a few dozen countries besides. Their knowledge (or lack thereof) is not based on hostility or prejudice, but on lack of direct experience and lack of any real need or desire to find out more. For most evangelicals, Mormonism is very much a non-issue. It's something that they've heard this-or-that about, but not much else.

Take care, everyone

Rhino, as much as I love you, I have to disagree with you on this, at least from my experience here in the Seattle area. Maybe our proximity to Ed Decker has something to do with it. Many of the nondenominational Churches here have had, and continue to have classes and seminars taught on the evils of Mormonism. You are correct that "most evangelicals have not really studied the LDS beliefs in any real way", but then again they don't have to, they believe that they get all the understanding they need from their churches classes and seminars.

T-Shirt

[Calm]

Do you know how many participated in the DVD distribution?

Considering how far below its goals the passout failed, it would seem to me to be a significant indicator that such things are NOT part typical of Mainstream EVs. There are a heck of a lot of them out there and if it was typical, there should have been no problem hitting at least the majority of the places they targeted. Yet from the reports I've gotten very few places actually got it and fewer got it on the day that it was planned for.

As to the crowd in the picture--first of all, you don't know how big a congregation is that they are pulling the people from or if it's even only one congregation and not many. There is also the fact that since EVs can choose which congregation they attend and are not 'assigned' as LDS are, it makes sense that 'like goes with like', IOW that congregation may have been formed primarily of those impressed by anti-mormon witnessing who come to that church from who knows how far away...while the other congregations in the area have few if any in their group. Because of the EV demographics and dynamics, there is no way to tell how big an area that group comes from. It may be small, it may be quite large.

Also consider this is propaganda for the group. Of course they are going to try and present it as if they are a huge and organized group and will have chosen the photographs in part for that reason.

One of the goals of the anti-mormon groups is to put wedges between LDS and others by creating stereotypes that prevent people from seeing the reality. If this was typical behaviour of EVs, who are a huge group in the US, we would be hearing much more of this and encountering such behaviour all over, yet I have never encountered such behaviour outside of the Internet except for at the temple (and while often noisy and obnoxious, they are still small in numbers) and once about 25 years ago from a young man who informed me he knew I was going to hell because his pastor said so...that was it.

Think of the grassroots EV activity of the last political campaigns. AM activity seems to me to pale in comparison. We could have every chapel picketed every Sunday, instead we get pretty much the same people over and over again, with an occasional new group recruited by these same organizations.

Yes, they are certainly bigger than we would hope and present in more areas than make us feel comfortable, but are they as big and everpresent as they make themselves seem through their own efforts?

Here is a picture of another EV congregation; these churches are springing up all over the place, kind of makes that other group seem like small potatoes to me:

If you wanted to know how prevalent an LDS folk belief, you should rely on the numbers that the typical LDS member gives you, not imo, on the numbers someone with an agenda supplies. I see the same thing going on here, if many of the EVs that come on here say they haven't seen this type of behaviour in most of the EV congregations they are familiar with, I think we should be cautious to accept the appearances being supplied by those whose lives seem to be devoted to this kind of activity.

[Calm]

-- That the tendency of Evangelical countercult ministries to be so aggressive, negative, and attack oriented comes from something in the Evangelical psyche. that notion is supported by the fact that the vast majority of countercult ministries are organized and supported by Evangelicals. I think that is a fair statement.

I don't think you can draw this conclusion. At best I think you might say that "something in the EV psyche" allows for this behaviour...and I would say that it is likely the emphasis on witnessing plus the independence of the congregations. I think some EVs are taking this as an excuse to get out there and be obnoxious. They justify their attacks as preaching and thumb their noses at anyone who tries to tell them differently, including their own people. "Peer pressure" just doesn't work the same in the EV community as it does in the LDS.

I can understand why EVs have at times classes dealing with other religions. If one is going to witness to someone, it is intelligent to understand that person's belief system ahead of time. I don't see a problem with this at all.

The problem arises by the source of materials that is chosen to do this. My concern in this area is mentioned below.

-- That for the most part, when the non-protesting Evangelicals discuss religion with a so-called cultist, they tend to believe and reflect the negative, hostile, attack-oriented approaches they are familiar with from their fellow Evangelical countercult brothers and sisters. Based on the evidences shared over many threads, I think this is a fair statement.

Considering the self-selecting that this board does, I don't think you can make this type of conclusions at all. The 'typical' EV doesn't come to this board nor does the 'typical' LDS.

Most LDS haven't even heard of this board, of FAIR or even of FARMS, but probably are aware that something in that category does exist somewhere out there, someone is doing research or organizing defenses somewhere somehow, but they aren't interested enough to go and find out. I see no reason at this point to suspect that EVs in general are almost as unaware of the AM activities in all congregations claiming to be a part of that community. My experience with EVs offline mirrors my experience with LDS offline. Most have only heard vague details.

However, there is one thing I've encountered that does seem to indicate the source of most EV ministries' information is anti-mormon material and that is the FAIR survey that was done several years ago. Now as to how many in their congregation have seen this stuff, I couldn't say, so I don't think we can accurately measure the actual impact. Here is a link to the survey: http://www.fairlds.org/Survey1.html I believe this was done in CA, before sweeping conclusions can be made, it needs to be much broader based.

Consider the project numbers of those who see themselves as part of the Evangelical community:

some 25-45 percent of the population report that they see themselves as either Born-Again Christians, or, in the broadest sense of the word, Christian "Evangelicals."

http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v17n2/ev...mographics.html

"It has been estimated that about 45 million American Protestants--communicants of both large denominations and small bodies--are evangelicals. "

http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_275.html

Rather than comparing AM activity in the EV community to similar activities in other religious communities, it is better to compare it to other public activities within the EV community itself because that will take into account certain 'peculiarities' in the EV community. Compare the AM activity to the political activity of the EV community in the past elections. I just don't see there being any comparison between the two and I think this is a good indicator (or as good as we've got right now) of exactly what impact AM activity has on most EVs.

[rhinomelon]

Calmoriah, excellent posts. You said it much better than I could have, thank you!

[Mark Beesley]

I wonder if aaron...or whoever creates that site...ever informs someone when they are being used to support his anti-mormon activity elsewhere on the web.

He does not. The issue came to a head a few months ago at Concerned Christians after Aaron posed an innocuous question to a professor at BYU in an e-mail, and then used the professor's answer to support his thesis that the Mormon God could have, at one time, been a drag queen. Aaron was castigated by the professor when his tactics were revealed, and Aaron defended himself by essentially admitting that he has no ethics.

Aaron Shafovaloff is a person who deserves pity rather than scorn.

[Connolly]

Unless this there are two guys named Lonnie who have a ministry in eastern Utah and who make it a habit to protest at LDS events then the fact that the guy you spoke to was a polite protester is unusual. Maybe he had a stomach ache or something and wasn't quite up to it this time.

[oats]

Rhino: I returned about a year ago. However, I was close to McKeever's territory in San Diego, and like T-Shirt mentioned about Decker and Seattle, the area was probably an exceptional example of the counter-cult scene in EV churchs. It was bad enough that many on the Eastern side of the mission, close to a 'church' McKeever was affiliated with, thought the Mormon bashing was ridiculous and annoying.

[Calm]

Rhino: I returned about a year ago. However, I was close to McKeever's territory in San Diego, and like T-Shirt mentioned about Decker and Seattle, the area was probably an exceptional example of the counter-cult scene in EV churchs. It was bad enough that many on the Eastern side of the mission, close to a 'church' McKeever was affiliated with, thought the Mormon bashing was ridiculous and annoying.

When I and my family (up until late 90s I believe) lived in northern CA, suburbs of SF, there was no AM activity that I was aware of including picketing of the Oakland temple.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Unless this there are two guys named Lonnie who have a ministry in eastern Utah and who make it a habit to protest at LDS events then the fact that the guy you spoke to was a polite protester is unusual. Maybe he had a stomach ache or something and wasn't quite up to it this time.

Lonnie can be a total jerk; he just couldn't while I distracted him.

[LifeOnaPlate]

The Aaron Video is almost good to go.

[Bsix]

Cal:

I am going to respectfully disagree with you.

I think the observable realities such as the Southern Baptists and their antiMormon program...to the hundreds (if not thousands) of Evangelical countercult ministries...to the professional Evangelical countercult organizations...to the fact that virtually every Evangelical and Christian bookstore sells countercult materials...to the fact that the FAIR surveys support the antiMormon mindset...to the support that Evangelicals provide countercult ministries...to the fact that almost all countercult ministries...and that there is a near universal Mormon witness to the Evangelical mindset...all speak louder than repeated claims that Evangelicals do not take a negative approach to witnessing to the so-called cults.

It has been my experience that almost any active mainstream Evangelical will witness to someone they consider to be in a cult by telling them what is wrong with the cult they belong to.

Evangelicals almost never witness to Mormons or other so-called cultists by affirmatively witnessing their beliefs.

My experience as a convert with traditional and Evangelicals relatives is the opposite of yours.

Evangelicals have almost always approached my membership in the LDS Church by using the antiMormon talking points...not telling me what they believe.

Yup...I am going to disagree as nicely as I can.

Regards,

Six

[Calm]

Yup...I am going to disagree as nicely as I can.

Regards,

Six

I hope you know I have no problem with you disagreeing with me just as I hope you have no problem with me disagreeing with you. I have yet to meet someone who agrees with me in everything, silly people that they are.

[volvoman]

That is just silly and slanderous. For one thing, I don't have the ability to preach that long without taking a break. And breaks happened all the time as people asked questions and voiced objections and a public dialog ensued. As for "foaming at the mouth", I can only laugh at that. Prove it. You might find me drinking some water after getting a dry mouth, but apart from that you're inserting memories of your own imagination. I'm sure you'd like to set up caricatures and demonize us, but you'd be better off posting actual video of the preaching and including all the wonderful group conversations that came about.

A couple of questions/comments for you...... Why do you slander us and make of yourself a public nuisance ? A lot of good people come to the Pageant and just want to enjoy it .. so why rush out there and make a fool of yourself and be so openly disregarded by a very large number of people. Besides, you will only incur more disdain and rejection through the type of proselyting you are conducting. You characterize yourself as being a radicalized and foolish person when you act this way. You should follow the example of the Savior and move and preach more quietly among your fellow man. I don't think the Savior went around yelling and screaming at people. What do you think ?

Anyway, it is a well known fact that more people are attracted to be curious about the Church when people like you are around than any number that you actually turn away from the Church.....so, maybe you should scream and cry out against us even with a louder voice.....we will have more converting by your bad example.

Volvoman.

[rhinomelon]

It has been my experience that almost any active mainstream Evangelical will witness to someone they consider to be in a cult by telling them what is wrong with the cult they belong to.

Evangelicals almost never witness to Mormons or other so-called cultists by affirmatively witnessing their beliefs.

Any evidence for this, or just personal experience?

I would also point out that when examining two belief systems side by side with the objective being choosing one, it necessarily entails an exploration of why one is right and the other wrong. LDS missionaries do the same thing with me, usually regarding the Great Apostasy and the need for a restoration. I don't see it as necessarily offensive, but a necessary part of exploring all sides of a very important issue, pros and cons.

Take care, everyone

[Bsix]

Any evidence for this, or just personal experience?

Six: I have provided volumes of evidence to support the notion that Evangelicals create and consume, and distribute, and use negative attack-oriented countercult materials. I cannot make you believe what you wish to deny.

I would also point out that when examining two belief systems side by side with the objective being choosing one, it necessarily entails an exploration of why one is right and the other wrong. LDS missionaries do the same thing with me, usually regarding the Great Apostasy and the need for a restoration. I don't see it as necessarily offensive, but a necessary part of exploring all sides of a very important issue, pros and cons.

Six: That sounds an awful like you are justifying the exact sort of Evangelical countercult methodology while at the same time you deny it exists.

Generally speaking, Mormon witnessing does not use the approach you just described. You will not find LDS anti(denomination) ministries. Our missionary materials affirmatively witness our beliefs and the benefits we believe come from those beliefs. We do not have radio programs or TV shows geared to debunking other religions.

But...we have been through this all before. The evidence, facts, and citations have been provided. We always seem to get to a place where you deny such tactics on one hand...and then justify them on the other.

I guess we are at the point where we are going to have to agree to disagree. But, I still love ya!

Regards,

Six

[Bsix]

Waying hello to AaronShaf!

Would you please answer my question I posted near the beginning of this thread?

What is the most descriptive way of describing your traditional Christian doctrinal/denominational leanings. (Are you Evangelical, Catholic, Baptist, Fundamentalist, etc?)

Do you consider yourself to be part of the mainstream traditional Christianity...or are you an oddity within mainstream?

Do you find that your fellow traditional Chrisians (Including Evangelicals) find you to be something of a freak...or do they accept and embrace your apparently negative, hostile, and attack based witnessing approach?

Does it bother you that you taint what is a spiritual event for many Mormons? (My memories of attending a Church religious pageant are forever tainted and tarnished by the hostile gauntlet I had to pass through to get in the door.)

I await your answers. However, I will tell you up front that I find the type of witnessing you engage in to be hostile, negative, and attack oriented. I am offended by traditional Christians like you that have so little regard for the sincere faith of others that you protest and disrupt the spiritual experiences of others. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Regards,

Six

[LifeOnaPlate]

Aaron stopped by and didn't say hi?

[captain-jack]

Sorry about the delay, at the soon to be in-law's taking care of final marriage details.

Here is the one that Life meant to send.

It's in Quicktime but if you want it in Windows Media Player let me know and I'll redo the page to show as such.

[Calm]

Okay, I got a puppy dog...cute, but I dont' think it's aaron though it looks a little like him around the nose.

[captain-jack]

Alrighty, next time I'm going to check the video. Lifeonaplate, seriously send the right video. Watch it all the way through and make sure it's the right one.

[Calm]

Alrighty, next time I'm going to check the video. Lifeonaplate, seriously send the right video. Watch it all the way through and make sure it's the right one.

Hmmm....maybe someone is trying to prevent the TRUTH from being exposed. ***insert evil, maniacal laughter here***

riker, you need to start charging for your services, that way he'll be sure and doublecheck on his end before sending.

Somebody wake that teeny, little super guy up!

[LifeOnaPlate]

Oh man! haha, Looks like someone had the 'ol camera besides me. I had taken 2 videos at the pageant, and so thought there were only 2 on my drive. Looks like there were 3. I really apologize. I double-checked this time. On the way.

I like my dog a lot better than aaron, I must admit.

[captain-jack]

Hmmm....maybe someone is trying to prevent the TRUTH from being exposed. ***insert evil, maniacal laughter here***

riker, you need to start charging for your services, that way he'll be sure and doublecheck on his end before sending.

Somebody wake that teeny, little super guy up!

I would charge, but the server is run free for me through my work and it honestly took me about 30 seconds to put it up. I don't think Lifeonaplate wants to send me $1 plus change for the labor.