Anti's At Manti

[captain-jack]

The reason you are missing the plugin is because there's no video yet, no video means Firefox or your other browser is saying it doesn't know how to play a folder as a video. It's came....like molasses rolling uphill, but it's came. Same link as I posted before, but if you're too lazy to go back here it is again.

It's in quicktime, if you want it in windows media player let me know and I'll slap together another page for it.

[Bsix]

What I find very interesting about this anti-at-manti thing is that this has provided (for me) a window into the Evangelical countercult world. AaronShaf is obviously plugged into a network of Evangelical antiMormon ministries. He is a participant in, or creator of, a number of such online antiMormon websites.

I found an online antiMormon photo gallery that features AaronShaf in several of the photos.

MormonInfo.com

I think the photos provide some insights into the world of Evangelical antiMormons...

This is AaronShaf with some of his fellow antiMormons protesting outside the Salt Lake Temple.

This is one of AaronShaf's fellow Evangelicals imitating the "Christis" statue at Temple square during what appears to be an antiMormon training session. (Notice the LDS plan of salvation diagram on the board behind him.)

This is a room shot of the Evangelical protesters being trained before a protest session in the Ephraim Church of the Bible. Standing room only...obviously the Evangelical antiMormon movement is bigger and more organized that some will admit to.

In over 30 years of being a Latter Day Saint, I have never...never...seen any meeting of any sort that even comes close to the sort shown above. Mocking LDS statues of Jesus Christ...packed rooms of people learning how to attack another religion by shouting propaganda at religious events. Amazing.

Regards,

Six

[captain-jack]

I put it up, not seeing Aaron in it. I think another is on the way and I'll post that as soon as I get it. They'll stay there for a week or so.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I put it up, not seeing Aaron in it. I think another is on the way and I'll post that as soon as I get it. They'll stay there for a week or so.

Geez. I sent the wrong one. This is what happens when you try to get an FTP going in the span of 2 minutes, and don't double check. The Aaron vid will be sent later tonight, and it is shorter, so it shouldn't take as long.

This is a video of Lonnie. I was asking him some questions. Another man came up to invite Lonnie to enjoy the show as well.

[consiglieri]

Wow.

I gotta say. I really don't get it.

It's one thing to engage in an intellectual debate about beliefs but this going around trying to disrupt people enjoying their religion is just too weird. Especially when it is just an attempt to get them into another religion!

Get a life!

Some people just have to be the center of attention.

I am guessing Aaron is the baby of the family.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I have to say that all this descriptive analysis of a actively propelled body fluid is getting to me.

Do you mean in a good way or in a bad way?

[bluebell]

This is one of AaronShaf's fellow Evangelicals imitating the "Christis" statue at Temple square during what appears to be an antiMormon training session. (Notice the LDS plan of salvation diagram on the board behind him.)

I can't believe they would even mock a statue of Christ! Are these people so far gone that they will even mock things they themselves hold as sacred if it's in the context of something 'mormon'?

[captain-jack]

I can't believe they would even mock a statue of Christ! Are these people so far gone that they will even mock things they themselves hold as sacred if it's in the context of something 'mormon'?

Some people have no shame, and from earlier posts there are Mormons who are ill-mannered to say the very least. Intolerance is in abundance and hatred rampant in the heart, nothing good has come from this and nothing ever will.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Are we certain he is mocking the Christus statue? That is really really sad for a person professing to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

[RenegadeOfPhunk]

This is one of AaronShaf's fellow Evangelicals imitating the "Christis" statue at Temple square during what appears to be an antiMormon training session. (Notice the LDS plan of salvation diagram on the board behind him.)

I suspect this guy has had some 'funky mushrooms'...

[Bsix]

If I am reading the website correctly, the person doing the Christis pose is Rob Sivulka the President of Courageous Christians United. Apparently, he is the one doing the antiMormon training session.

The exact caption on the photo is: "Rob lecturing to a mission group at Cornerstone Evangelical Free and impersonating the Christus statue at Temple Square"

The photo in context can be found here.

I guess that to antiMormons, we are worthy of derision because "our" Jesus is so absolutely not the real Jesus that they are free to mock it without feeling like they are offending God. This reminds me of the antiMormon protester I once saw outside of the Conference Center. He had an effigy of the decaptitated head of God the Father dangling from a stick...complete with faux blood. He also had an LDS illustration of Jesus at the second coming that had been desecrated with antiMormon taunts.

The funny thing is...the Christis statue at Temple Square is a replica of a very famous statue found in a traditional Christian chapel in Europe.

Regards,

Six

[LifeOnaPlate]

I suspect this guy has had some 'funky mushrooms'...

I laughed out loud at that one; what a lame cheap shot by Lonnie. The reformed drug user. Takes one to know one, I guess.

[rhinomelon]

This is a room shot of the Evangelical protesters being trained before a protest session in the Ephraim Church of the Bible. Standing room only...obviously the Evangelical antiMormon movement is bigger and more organized that some will admit to.

I counted 73 people (including the picture-taker). Clearly this is a movement that encompasses the whole of evangelicalism.

Bwaaa Ha HA HA!!!!

But seriously, how can these people think this does any good!?! Or at least does more good than harm?! I don't get it. The first thing I would do if someone starting bashing my faith would be to clam up and get defensive. Hardly the response that would lead me to a change of faith!

Proverbs 18:19 "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong citadel."

Take care, everyone

[LifeOnaPlate]

I counted 73 people (including the picture-taker). Clearly this is a movement that encompasses the whole of evangelicalism.

Bwaaa Ha HA HA!!!!

But seriously, how can these people think this does any good!?! Or at least does more good than harm?! I don't get it. The first thing I would do if someone starting bashing my faith would be to clam up and get defensive. Hardly the response that would lead me to a change of faith!

Proverbs 18:19 "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong citadel."

Take care, everyone

As I said, I find no precedence for this type of blaspehmous preaching in the teachings of Christ, his apostles, or in the Biblical canon. It seems they have preached without being sent.

[Doctor Steuss]

Can we have a caption contest? My submission would be.

Now for my greatest trick I shall cast the Devil out of this unsuspecting Mormon.

Aaron almost realized that Mormons arenâ??t all that bad. Luckily he learned the â??Stopus Testimoniousâ? spell at Hogwarts the previous year and was able to avoid the travesty of ceasing to be a bigot.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Aaron almost realized that Mormons arenâ??t all that bad. Luckily he learned the â??Stopus Testimoniousâ? spell at Hogwarts the previous year and was able to avoid the travesty of ceasing to be a bigot.

nicely done.

[captain-jack]

Got bored, thought I'd post something. I didn't mean it to offend anyone, and it's honestly a stab at the common belief that Mormons like green jello, but his face was too funny pass up.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

But seriously, how can these people think this does any good!?! Or at least does more good than harm?! I don't get it. The first thing I would do if someone starting bashing my faith would be to clam up and get defensive. Hardly the response that would lead me to a change of faith!

Proverbs 18:19 "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong citadel."

Take care, everyone

Wise words my heathen friend. Something that we (and by "we," I mean "me") could learn from when engaging others. Often I'm guilty of taking pot-shots at traditional Christian beliefs. Hopefully I do it substantially less often than when I first started posting many moons ago.

PS.

I like your faith. Your faith is good... now come to the dark side of Mormonism.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I think the picture is an imitation of the expression they will have when they die and find themselves in the spirit world rather than taken directly to heaven.

[Bsix]

Rhino: I counted 73 people (including the picture-taker). Clearly this is a movement that encompasses the whole of evangelicalism.

Rhino my message board buddy,

I am not suggesting that 73 people crammed into an Evangelical Church constitutes the "whole of Evangelism."

I am suggesting that this antiMormon activity is being held in a mainstream Evangelical Church says something about how accepted antiMormonism is within Evangelicalism. The Evangelical Church where the antiMormon protest training took place is a congregation of the EFCA which has been a member of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) since 1943. If the EFCA and the NAE are not considered to be a part of mainstream Evangelicalism...please show us why.

The packed room tends to support my understanding that it is the custom of the Evangelical countercult ministries to recruit Evangelicals from traditional Evangelical congregations and colleges. These folks then travel from their home congregations for summer and special event ministries. That's what the countercult ministries did to distribute the 3/25 DVD. This suggests a pretty fair degree of openess on the parts of these churches and colleges to participate in these sorts of countercult ministries. Again, this seems to be pretty mainstream to me.

It has been my impression that the folks that do all the protesting, yelling, and disrupting are supposed to be mostly loners. They are not a part of any orgainized larger groups. What I got from visiting the AaronShaf network of websites is that the antiMormon protesters are larger, more trained, more organized, and draw more support from Evangelical Churches than I believe has been acknowledged.

That was my point.

BTW...I am still wondering what happened to AaronShaf? I'd still like to get my quesitons regarding his affiliations answered.

Regards,

Six

[LifeOnaPlate]

I'm not surprised that Aaron S. has not returned. Maybe he recognized that some people on the board might know what they are talking about, and that his shallow arguments don't hold water. The sheep have become rams, and from his caption on his flickr photo, it seems he prefers rending the sheep. He mentions a Mormon who is trying to defend the Church to protect the children. It was interesting to see him specifically mention a group he is targeting: the unseasoned Church member, to plant seeds of doubt. He invited us to email him; but if he has time to answer some emails, one would think he would have time to finish the discussion here.

You mess with the Ram you get the horn.

[rhinomelon]

The packed room tends to support my understanding that it is the custom of the Evangelical countercult ministries to recruit Evangelicals from traditional Evangelical congregations and colleges. These folks then travel from their home congregations for summer and special event ministries. That's what the countercult ministries did to distribute the 3/25 DVD. This suggests a pretty fair degree of openess on the parts of these churches and colleges to participate in these sorts of countercult ministries. Again, this seems to be pretty mainstream to me.

Do you know how many participated in the DVD distribution? Or how many evangelicals have ever done any kind of protesting? I would be interested in hearing some actual numbers.

Once again, the lack of organization among evangelicals makes it almost impossible to say that this group or that group represents the evangelical mainstream. The EFCA denomination specifically states that it is up to the individual congregation to govern its own affairs; there is little or no denominational oversight. In fact, seeing as how I am actually a youth pastor in an EFCA congregation, I can tell you that the three EFCA congregations I work with in the area all abhor the kind of witnessing seen here. You can't take the actions or programs of one EFCA congregation and apply it to the whole group. The organizational structure is specifically designed to give each congregation independence in such matters, while providing the opportunity to pool resources among many churches in order to accomplish bigger things. If you can find an instance of the denomination itself supporting or conducting such activities, that would hold some weight.

One can recruit people to do almost anything. The fact that such groups have to do such recruiting all over the US in order to get their numbers up suggests to me that they are not as "mainstream" as you seem to think.

Take care, everyone

[oats]

Rhino,

While I roamed the streets of southern California on my mission, I would have to say that anti-Mormonism did seem to be part of most evangelical Christian churches. I met many people that participated in 'mission trips' to Mormons, many that carried anti Mormon literature, most had taken Anti-Mormon classes at their Churches etc.

I suppose that in some areas it might be more of a part of EV culture than in others. And of course I realize that because I was a missionary I got to see the best of the best all the time, so that is factored into my personal observations.

I agree that no group should be painted with the broad brush of stereotypes. I just wanted to let you know that type of stuff seemed to me like a standard part of the EV culture in San Diego.

[rhinomelon]

Just out of curiosity, oats, when did you go on your mission?

[Bsix]

Rhino,

Thank you for your thoughts.

I suspect that with each mounting piece of evidence concerning Evangelical support of countercult ministries, you seem to be trying to redraw the bounds of this ongoing discussion.

Nobody on this message board (including me) has stated that the "whole" of Evangelicalism participates in active protests at LDS spiritual events. I recognize that only a tiny percentage of Evangelicals actually engage in such activities. I have never suggested otherwise.

I believe that I have consistently noted:

-- For the most part, those who do participate in these sorts of activities ARE Evangelicals. I don't think you can dispute that.

-- That these countercult ministries draw their support from fellow Evangelicals and Evangelical churches. I don't think that is in dispute.

-- That the tendency of Evangelical countercult ministries to be so aggressive, negative, and attack oriented comes from something in the Evangelical psyche. that notion is supported by the fact that the vast majority of countercult ministries are organized and supported by Evangelicals. I think that is a fair statement.

-- That for the most part, when the non-protesting Evangelicals discuss religion with a so-called cultist, they tend to believe and reflect the negative, hostile, attack-oriented approaches they are familiar with from their fellow Evangelical countercult brothers and sisters. Based on the evidences shared over many threads, I think this is a fair statement.

Now, to the specifics of your post.

Do you know how many participated in the DVD distribution?

From the media accounts I recall there were thousands of traditional Christians participating in the distribution. They were recruited from all over the United States to come to Utah or distribute materials in their home state.

Or how many evangelicals have ever done any kind of protesting?

I'd say that over the years, actual protesters number in the hundreds or low thousands. As stated above, those protesters are mostly Evangelicals, and they enjoy support from the mainstream Evangelicalism.

You can't take the actions or programs of one EFCA congregation and apply it to the whole group.

I'm not. I am merely pointing out that the training session was held in a recognized EFCA Church...and that the EFCA is pretty mainstream. Unless that particular EFCA church was violating basic published EFCA standards, then the support that particular Church gave to the Evangelical protesters is acceptable to that mainstream Evangelical organization. Unless you can show me that the EFCA bars such support then I have to believe that these activities fall within bounds.

Regards,

Six