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Anti's At Manti


LifeOnaPlate

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I admit, the pageant is a little too kitsch for me, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. I'm willing to talk about some of the things I dislike about it, [having Brigham Young and Joseph Smith say lines they never actually spoke, when there are plenty of sources to quote them from, etc.] but I'd also like to talk about the protesters a little.

The one with the big sign, the bearded man, I had a thirty minute conversation to learn about him and why he does what he does. He was pretty cordial overall; much more polite than the loudmouth blasphemers from JosephLied.com. Those guys were amazingly rude.

The bearded man we have seen at many church functions told me his name is Lonnie. He said he was saved when he was 5, but when he turned 10 he moved from Indiana to Utah where he was thrown into the arms of Satan because he began listening to rock and roll. Boston, Foghat, and other "satanic" bands. He began smoking pot. Then he began doing harder drugs. Then he started selling and running drugs. "Sex, drugs and rock-and-roll" were his way of life. His cousin [or brother? I was unclear on this part] was shot at a payphone by what he believed were gang members upset over a drug deal gone awry. He said it was a wake up call, and started walking the streets of Salt Lake protesting gangs. [He didn't go into methods, etc.] Around this time he picked up a Bible, remembered his Christian origins and got saved again. [i began asking him about whether he was saved to begin with, but he said that was irrelevant.]

Then he became involved as a Baptist lay minister, eventually becoming the minister of his own baptist Church in Duschene County. He knew he had to expose Mormonism and help the Mormons get saved, so he made a really big sign. He said the other protesters have since copied his idea of large signs. I'm sure many of you have seen his signs, one with block letters and one with a fire burning people such as Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. He pays for his preaching by working at trade shows setting up booths. Apparently "they" fly him into Vegas all the time to set up "these conference booths."

More stories, and videos to come!

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Here is him and I, before the show began.

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Man those guys really want to save us or somthing. I mean they look at you and tell you to your face that they are concerned about you and they want you to be saved. Thats good I want to go to heaven to. So I asked one once, why would satan want me to read the book of mormom when it only teaches us to come unto christ and do what he does, act as he acts, and think as he thinks and pattern our life after him.

15 And I heard a voice from the Father, saying: Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

16 And now, my beloved brethren, I know by this that unless a man shall endure to the end, in following the example of the Son of the living God, he cannot be saved.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:15 - 16)

i really don't know why they are so concerned about us. We belive that we must be born again. we take upon the name of christ. we are baptized by athority after his example. We try and live every cammandment he has given. We not only beleive that by grace we are saved but that we must do all that we can do to live the gospel of jesus christ and still it is by his grace that we are saved because we are inperfect needing one who could atone for our sins. By all other christians that I have talked to that says to me that we are saved, born again, or excepted jesus christ in our lives. whatever you want to call it. I just want to know what they are trying to save us from.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow apath, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a asteadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eeternal life.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 31:19 - 20)

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You should ask them about what denomination they belong to so we have the chance to take our signs to their gatherings. It's only fair...

Lonnie is baptist; though he really hates the SBC. He kept telling me he was "going easy" on the Mormons, and that he is hardest on the Baptists.

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I talked to Lonnie about a few things:

-Telling the difference between an angel from the devil and an angel of God (when he referred to Joseph seeing an "angel of light."

-The difference between a commandment and a suggestion in God's Word (the Bible. Example: Baptism vs. Paul saying women shouldn't speak in the church.)

-The infallibility of the Bible. (He stated the Dead Sea Scrolls verified the complete accuracy of the bible. I asked 'what about the New Testament?')

-The judgment facing those who never heard the name of Christ or had access to a Bible.

-etc. etc.

The JesusNotJospeh folks were very antagonistic and downright abraisive.

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This young man actually and quite literally began foaming at the mouth after about 30 minutes of yelling without pause.

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He had gathered a group of 20 or so, mostly younger kids, by his shouting.

When he started into racism of the Book of Mormon I decided to quiet him a little, and approached him. At first he ignored me and continued to yell, and his friend standing near him asked if I had a question, so I mentioned the aparent racism in the Bible. The shouter stopped shouting, and, in a frantic way, demanded proof. I obliged, but took my time, because for the time being, it quieted him. Eventually I showed him a passage in the last book of Daniel, dealing with people being "made white" after repenting. He didn't really accept it as corrolary, and that's fine, my main object was to stop the yelling. It got me thinking: why not have a group of 20 or so apologists at these functions who keep the shouters busy? They wouldn't have to engage in angry debate, just keep the ant's running in circles.

Here's another protester, does anyone know what her shirt is referring to?

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It says something about Moroni's FIRST promise.

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This young man actually and quite literally began foaming at the mouth after about 30 minutes of yelling without pause.

That is just silly and slanderous. For one thing, I don't have the ability to preach that long without taking a break. And breaks happened all the time as people asked questions and voiced objections and a public dialog ensued. As for "foaming at the mouth", I can only laugh at that. Prove it. You might find me drinking some water after getting a dry mouth, but apart from that you're inserting memories of your own imagination. I'm sure you'd like to set up caricatures and demonize us, but you'd be better off posting actual video of the preaching and including all the wonderful group conversations that came about.

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Well, at least these guys aren't coy about their intentions. I've been told it's the exmormons and anti-mormons who are nice who are the worst because they are "wolves in sheep's clothing."

:P

And for what it's worth, I can't think of a bigger waste of time than going out and screaming at people for their religious beliefs (although hanging around here is a pretty good time waster, too). <_<

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The kid in those pictures looks really familiar, he didn't happen to work at a Circuit City in Ogden did he? Or used to work at the one up there?

Which kid? If you're talking about the guy with the hat and beard holding the Stephen Robinson book, then that's me, and I used to work at Circuit City in Riverdale about 2 and half to 3 years ago.

The JesusNotJoseph shouter, accordign to their website, is named Aaron Shafovaloff. His bio:

"Aaron became a student of Mormonism in 1998, when he was introduced to the religion by neighbors. His life was forever changed when he discovered Romans 4:5, "And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." He looks back at his conversion in contrast to the "impossible gospel" set forth in The Miracle of forgiveness and the "after all we can do" (2 Nephi 2:23; cf. Moroni 10:32) requirement that he could never live up to. After spending a summer in Utah doing evangelism, he resolved to dedicate his life to reaching the Mormon people for christ and inoculating outsiders from counterfeit Christianity. As a web developer he looks forward to helping MRM [Mormon Research Ministry] reach a culture that increasingly turns to the internet for spiritual purposes. Aaron and his wife Stacie live in Orem, UT, as missionaries to the Mormon people. They have a son, John Caleb.

That is just silly and slanderous. For one thing, I don't have the ability to preach that long without taking a break. And breaks happened all the time as people asked questions and voiced objections and a public dialog ensued. As for "foaming at the mouth", I can only laugh at that. Prove it. You might find me drinking some water after getting a dry mouth, but apart from that you're inserting memories of your own imagination. I'm sure you'd like to set up caricatures and demonize us, but you'd be better off posting actual video of the preaching and including all the wonderful group conversations that came about.

I have it on video. I'll be happy to upload it. You had white conglommerated spit flying from your mouth. The video is too large for youtube and photobucket [i tried uploading it yesterday] so I'll have to host it somewhere else when I get a chance.

As far as the length of time concerned, I know for a fact you were yelling from 9 pm to 9:30 pm because I spent the whole time about 20 feet away talking to Lonnie, the guy with the really large signs.You were shouting the entire time. And also shouted directly after the opeing prayer for God to save the Mormons; though rather than shoting to God, you turned to the crowd and shouted to them instead.

[edited to respond to aaron]

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I have it on video. I'll be happy to upload it. You had white conglommerated spit flying from your mouth.

Go for it. It sounds like you're already backing off the "foaming at the mouth" claim and instead you're trying to find a place where you see some spit come out.

I know for a fact you were yelling from 9 pm to 9:30 pm because I spent the whole time about 20 feet away talking to Lonnie, the guy with the really large signs.

Right before the pageant starts Rob Sivulka and I try to give a concluding preaching monologue (whereas before almost everything is a group conversation). But even then I take breaks not only to rest my voice but also to give tracts and DVDs to people who ask for them. My lungs don't even have the ability to preach for 30 minutes without pause.

And also shouted directly after the opeing prayer for God to save the Mormons; though rather than shotung to God, you turned to the crowd and shouted to them instead.

This is slander. When the pageant prayer starts, it signals the start of the pageant and I immediately stop. At that point everyone (with sometimes the exception of people like Lonnie) stops preaching, including me. Christians made it a conscious point not to interfere with the pageant itself.

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So how does this protest thing work during the performance itself?

From the photos, I get the impression that they are protesting right on the edge of the Church grounds. It appears that the protesters are mere feet from the last rows of chairs.

At other LDS venues, the protesters are often shouting and carrying on. They even carry megaphones.

If they do that at this venue, they would be disrupting the pageant.

Please tell me that during the actual prayers and performance that they have the decency to put the signs down and be quiet. Or, do they keep protesting and disrupting all the way through?

Regards,

Six

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That is just silly and slanderous. For one thing, I don't have the ability to preach that long without taking a break. And breaks happened all the time as people asked questions and voiced objections and a public dialog ensued. As for "foaming at the mouth", I can only laugh at that. Prove it. You might find me drinking some water after getting a dry mouth, but apart from that you're inserting memories of your own imagination. I'm sure you'd like to set up caricatures and demonize us, but you'd be better off posting actual video of the preaching and including all the wonderful group conversations that came about.

If anyone thought that he literally was foaming at the mouth, then they don't know how to read between the lines. I took it as a visualization of the attitude he had, he wasn't just speaking loudly but yelling in an almost rabid manner. But I won't argue that it was written as literally, I rarely take people as that anymore because it's thrown around too often.

As for Aaron, I do believe that's the guy and if it's him I'd really have to get a laugh out of it. When I knew him a few years ago (assuming that it is him) he didn't seem to care much of anything about it. He wasn't LDS but seemed nice about the fact that he just plainly didn't agree. He worked in the car audio department, again assuming it's the same guy.

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Go for it. It sounds like you're already backing off the "foaming at the mouth" claim and instead you're trying to find a place where you see some spit come out.

It was white, very visable foamy spit from your mouth.

Right before the pageant starts Rob Sivulka and I try to give a concluding preaching monologue (whereas before almost everything is a group conversation). But even then I take breaks not only to rest my voice but also to give tracts and DVDs to people who ask for them. My lungs don't even have the ability to preach for 30 minutes without pause.

It was at least 30 minutes. I know because I was standing near you and could plainly hear your voice, and occaisionally would look over your way while talking to Lonnie.

This is slander. When the pageant prayer starts, it signals the start of the pageant and I immediately stop. At that point everyone (with sometimes the exception of people like Lonnie) stops preaching, including me. Christians made it a conscious point not to interfere with the pageant itself.

Call it slander or whatever you want. Did you, or did you not, shout again after the opening prayer was finished?

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That is just silly and slanderous. For one thing, I don't have the ability to preach that long without taking a break. And breaks happened all the time as people asked questions and voiced objections and a public dialog ensued. As for "foaming at the mouth", I can only laugh at that. Prove it. You might find me drinking some water after getting a dry mouth, but apart from that you're inserting memories of your own imagination. I'm sure you'd like to set up caricatures and demonize us, but you'd be better off posting actual video of the preaching and including all the wonderful group conversations that came about.

Actually, Shaffy, considering the amount of time you spend editting video clips of the Prophet to distort what he actually says, the idea that we're being silly and slanderous is the greatest joke told this century.

Your distant acquaintance with that annoying thing called "the truth"- which consists mostly of staying as far away from it as possible- is your single greatest qualification as a laughing stock. Were it not for your zeal, you'd be less funny- trending more toward pathetic.

Given the number of anti-Mormon propoganda videos you post to the web (keep trying- perhaps in a hundred years you'll be worthy to lick Leni Reisenthal's boots), you are the last person on Earth who should be questioning Mormons on a Mormon board.

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Who would of thought that we'd have one of the shouters participating in this message borad?

First of all, I'd never guess from the nice all-american family photo for an avitar, that this person is apparently someone who disrupts LDS spiritual events by shouting and disputing with Mormons as they enter the temple grounds.

I do have a question or two.

What is the most descriptive way of describing your traditional Christian doctrinal/denominational leanings. (Are you Evangelical, Catholic, Baptist, Fundamentalist, etc?)

Do you consider yourself to be part of the mainstream traditional Christianity...or are you an oddity within mainstream?

Do you find that your fellow traditional Chrisians (Including Evangelicals) find you to be something of a freak...or do they accept and embrace your apparently negative, hostile, and attack based witnessing approach?

Does it bother you that you taint what is a spiritual event for many Mormons? (My memories of attending a Church religious pageant are forever tainted and tarnished by the hostile gauntlet I had to pass through to get in the door.)

I await your answers. However, I will tell you up front that I find the type of witnessing you engage in to be hostile, negative, and attack oriented. I am offended by traditional Christians like you that have so little regard for the sincere faith of others that you protest and disrupt the spiritual experiences of others. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Regards,

Six

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Who would of thought that we'd have one of the shouters participating in this message borad.

First of all, I'd never guess from the nice all-american family photo for an avitar, that this person is apparently someone who disrupts LDS spiritual events by shouting and disputing with Mormons as they enter the temple grounds.

I do have a question or two.

Please decribe the most descriptive your traditional Christian doctrinal.denominational leanings. Are you Evangelical, Catholic, Baptist, Fundamentalist, etc?

Does it bother you that you taint what is a spiritual event for many Mormons? (My memories of attending a Church religious pageant are forever tainted and tarnished by the hostile gauntlet I had to pass through to get in the door.)

I await your answers. However, I will tell you up front that I find the type of witnessing you engage in to be hostile, negative, and attack oriented. I am offended by traditional Christians like you that have so little regard for the sincere faith of others that you protest and disrupt the spiritual experiences of others. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Regards,

Six

Most of the protesters were pretty cordial. They engaged in dialogue, or passed out tracts. Aaron and his friends were very aggressive, loud, and outright rude. I can't find an example in the New Testament where Jesus or any apostle used the abusive tactics or language employed by Aaron and company.

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