Tonga Member Devotional Elder Neal L Anderson

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Do you even believe Christ exist or any deity?

sure I do

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If you believe there is a Deity, do you believe they would ever show themselves to mortals?

Possibly, but our own prophets are scared to say it publicly and they are afraid to engage with the public other than in church setting g where they are not challenged. Last time this happened, (holland / Hinkley) with reporters they got caught in lies. They can’t handle pressure which is why they are isolated and make such wish washy statements. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

I’m far more open to it

Being more open doesn’t mean you will actually accept it.  Will you ever accept such a claim as truth, really happening?

[Notatbm]

Just now, Calm said:

Being more open doesn’t mean you will actually accept it.  Will you ever accept such a claim as truth, really happening?

Not from a Mormon prophet no. Too many lies or supporting brethren who have lied. We hold cops to a higher standard of honesty than we do for prophets. That’s backwards.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

sure I do

Possibly, but our own prophets

Considering you think LDS leaders/prophets are consistent liars and have been since the beginning if I remember correctly, why are you identifying with them?

Not saying you can’t, just seems very inconsistent with your stated views which come across as condemning and even disdainful of the organization and its leadership.

Edited March 27 by Calm

[Duncan]

26 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

I’m not seeing anywhere where swk stated HE saw Jesus. He is stating what George q cannon said. 
 

im not sure im ready to believe a guy who also taught in conference that Navajos turn white when they become righteous. 

if you bother to read my post then you would have seen this part, "Telling the world at General Conference, " I have seen him" how much more open and public can you get?

Work out your own problems but don't project them onto Prophets

besides the also very public accounts of Melvin J. Ballard, David B. Haight, Orson F. Whitney and a string of others

[Notatbm]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Considering you think LDS leaders/prophets are consistent liars and have been since the beginning if I remember correctly, why are you identifying with them?

Not saying you can’t, just seems very inconsistent with your stated views which come across as condemning and even disdainful of the organization and its leadership.

I don’t identify as Mormon, I identify as exMormon.  Problem is pyreux himself on this forum has said I have no right to call myself as exMormon until I either resign or get excommunicated. The church itself owns me according to him. Sorry but I get to criticize as a Mormon I guess. 

Edited March 27 by Notatbm
Typo

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

if you bother to read my post then you would have seen this part, "Telling the world at General Conference, " I have seen him" how much more open and public can you get?

Work out your own problems but don't project them onto Prophets

besides the also very public accounts of Melvin J. Ballard, David B. Haight, Orson F. Whitney and a string of others

Read the quote. He is using the words of cannons testimony, not his own. Is he not enough of a big boy to speak for himself? 

[Notatbm]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

besides the also very public accounts of Melvin J. Ballard, David B. Haight, Orson F. Whitney and a string of others

You gotta be kidding with these guys lol… did u read their accounts? 

Ballard and Whitney both stated it was a dream while they were sleeping and haight was unconscious for several days after a surgery. So basically they were all dreaming. 

sounds like the witnesses to the gold plates and seeing the plates with their spiritual eyes. 

ive had dreams I got a hookup with some woman on a few different occasions. Doesn’t mean it happened although I wish it had. Same with these guys.. dreams lol

do you believe everyone’s dreams are true happenings or just Mormon leaders?

i suppose they believe it maybe, but as for me saying you dreamed it qualifies it as a nice story and all but likelihood it happened is pretty much nil. 

Edited March 27 by Notatbm

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

Read the quote. He is using the words of cannons testimony, not his own. Is he not enough of a big boy to speak for himself? 

I did read the quote, I provided the quote and you are the reason why more prophets don't share their witness, you keep moving the goalposts and won't believe their witness anyways, so you are to blame for it and like I said if you don't like the way, or the place something is shared get your own witness and stop demanding people fit into your paradigm

I fully believe Pres. Kimball et all saw Christ and if you don't believe then what do I or Pres. Kimball care?

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

You gotta be kidding g with these guys lol… did u read their accounts? 
 

Ballard and Whitney both stated it was a dream while they were sleeping and haight was unconscious for several days after a surgery. So basically they were all dreaming. 
 

sounds like the witnesses to the gold plated and seeing the plates with their spiritual eyes. 
 

ive had dreams I got a hookup with some woman on a few different occasions. Doesn’t mean it happened although I wish it had. Same with these guys.. dreams lol

Christ can manifest himself anyway that he wants and people can see things in dreams, you don't get to choose how and when Christ manifests himself to people, you can't be that arrogant or are you?

[Notatbm]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I fully believe Pres. Kimball et all saw Christ and if you don't believe then what do I or Pres. Kimball care?

Ok good for you. If you don’t care what my opinion is then quit engaging with me. 

[Notatbm]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Christ can manifest himself anyway that he wants and people can see things in dreams, you don't get to choose how and when Christ manifests himself to people, you can't be that arrogant or are you?

Seems like that’s the only way it may be happening anymore if at all. I prefer to consider people’s experiences that occur when they are lucid,  not when they are having a nap.
 

I’ve had some pretty wild dreams over the years and every single one of them are fake. Just the mind thinking about what it wants to while it is entertaining itself during your nap. 
 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

I don’t identify as Mormon, I identify as exMormon.  Problem is pyreux himself on this forum has said I have no right to call myself as exMormon until I either resign or get excommunicated. The church itself owns me according to him. Sorry but I get to criticize as a Mormon I guess. 

In this I strongly disagree as no one should be required to label oneself as belonging to a faith community when one doesn’t have that faith even if still on the books.  It’s just wrong.  It’s not a genetic or legal status like citizenship, it’s a voluntary association.  If you haven’t resigned because you see that record as meaningless, all the more reason not to use “our”.  If you haven’t resigned because of family blowback, I feel bad for you….sincerely.  Not being able to be who you are because of others’ expectations, not great.  I have had to play that game with my health and stuff at times as I don’t want to be fussed over, given advice that’s irrelevant or worse, or made a project (pretend I am having fun and want to be at a family gathering, for example).  I think it would be much harder with a faith because at least I feel decent much of the time and have some extroverted tendencies, so it’s not a complete mask.

In addition to the wrongness of it, your use of “our own prophets” makes it appear like you are attempting to position yourself as somehow more credible or somehow having a more substantial status as an insider.  I have seen too many people act this way in my life (not just with trying to appear more ‘Mormon’).  It’s disconcerting and makes you look deceptive to me.

There is no requirement on the board that prevents you from calling yourself an exmormon if that is how you see yourself no matter what anyone else thinks.  A name on a paper doesn’t make you LDS in identity.

 Membership numbers need to be tracked somehow.  Decisions need to be made to meet people’s needs, including supporting rectivation efforts, so I don’t see a problem with the Church using those numbers, especially since if someone doesn’t want to be counted, one can contact SL easy enough to get removed, but membership is a different issue than identity.  Making claims with absolute numbers as if all are believers is highly problematic though I don’t think there is inherent issues with looking at trends (speed of numbers going up or down).

Edited March 27 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Not from a Mormon prophet no. Too many lies or supporting brethren who have lied. We hold cops to a higher standard of honesty than we do for prophets. That’s backwards.

Thank you for answering, normally I would give a rep point, but there’s not really a neutral one and I definitely don’t agree with “too many lies”.

[webbles]

2 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Well I’m getting people stating all kinds of prophets and apostles since Lorenzo snow have been saying they have actually seen Jesus. So far we have two heresay accounts and the rest are the standard “ I know Jesus lives.” None so far have straight up said they saw Jesus in person nor have I ever heard of or seen prophet stating such. 

Lorenzo Snow's testimony is also technically heresay.  I don't believe there is any record of him saying it in any public manner.  We hear about it through his granddaughter and others who said they heard him say it.  So, if you are discounting some of the ones brought up already, you should discount Lorenzo's as well.

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Notatbm said:

I have, I just don’t talk about it…. Too sacred

I saw Jesus once while in an ecstatic state. Also several times in dreams.

They were incredible experiences. I am just no longer convinced they were divine.

[Notatbm]

6 hours ago, webbles said:

Lorenzo Snow's testimony is also technically heresay.  I don't believe there is any record of him saying it in any public manner.  We hear about it through his granddaughter and others who said they heard him say it.  So, if you are discounting some of the ones brought up already, you should discount Lorenzo's as well.

Done- thanks for the info

[mburgess1982]

22 hours ago, Notatbm said:

So the statement you provide is actually heresay. Kimball had all the pulpit time in front of the entire world anyone could ever want yet he still didn’t say it. 

I'm not sure about you but If I had a very sacred experience, I would probably talk differently about it to a general audience at say General conference, than I would around my family or others in a small personal setting

[JAHS]

Here's the story about Lorenzo Snow that some are calling hearsay:
“One evening while I was visiting grandpa Snow in his room in the Salt Lake Temple, I remained until the door keepers had gone and the night-watchmen had not yet come in, so grand-pa said he would take me to the main front entrance and let me out that way. He got his bunch of keys from his dresser. After we left his room and while we were still in the large corridor leading into the celestial room, I was walking several steps ahead of grand-pa when he stopped me and said: ‘Wait a moment, Allie, I want to tell you something. It was right here that the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me at the time of the death of President Woodruff. He instructed me to go right ahead and reorganize the First Presidency of the Church at once and not wait as had been done after the death of the previous presidents, and that I was to succeed President Woodruff.’
“Then grand-pa came a step nearer and held out his left hand and said: ‘He stood right here, about three feet above the floor. It looked as though He stood on a plate of solid gold.’
“Grand-pa told me what a glorious personage the Savior is and described His hands, feet, countenance and beautiful white robes, all of which were of such a glory of whiteness and brightness that he could hardly gaze upon Him.
“Then he came another step nearer and put his right hand on my head and said: ‘Now, grand-daughter, I want you to remember that this is the testimony of your grand-father, that he told you with his own lips that he actually saw the Savior, here in the Temple, and talked with Him face to face.’” (Improvement Era, September 1933, under the title “An Experience of My Father’s” By LeRoi C. Snow:)

Edited March 28 by JAHS

[Notatbm]

2 hours ago, mburgess1982 said:

I'm not sure about you but If I had a very sacred experience, I would probably talk differently about it to a general audience at say General conference, than I would around my family or others in a small personal setting

Someone else here is saying kimball announced it over the pulpit in gen conference. I’m not so sure quoting another prophet counts but the poster said it did. I read the quote and I didn’t take away that kimball himself saw Jesus first hand. If he did, why would he quote someone else’s experience? 

[The Nehor]

On 3/27/2026 at 11:28 AM, Notatbm said:

So the statement you provide is actually heresay. Kimball had all the pulpit time in front of the entire world anyone could ever want yet he still didn’t say it. 

Heresy or hearsay? Or is that a combo of both?

[The Nehor]

I love these kinds of experiences and accounts of these kinds of experiences but they just aren’t that unique. Other faiths have them. Depending on the study somewhere around 15% of the population have seen dead people. It is not a strange occurrence. The most convincing naturalistic explanation of Christianity in my opinion is that Peter had this kind of experience and shared it and bam, Christianity is born.

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

that Peter had this kind of experience and shared it and bam, Christianity is born.

Why not Mary first and then Peter anticipating he deserved a visit too?

I am assuming the theory is contagion and exaggeration (as in multiple people sharing alleged visions).

Edited March 28 by Calm

[Notatbm]

23 hours ago, Duncan said:

Christ can manifest himself anyway that he wants and people can see things in dreams, you don't get to choose how and when Christ manifests himself to people, you can't be that arrogant or are you?

Arrogant??? Lol

just because someone trots out a dream they had the night before doesn’t make it true. Anyone can say they saw Jesus. The way these guys talk about it they know everyone except a few believers are not buying it. Best course of action is to say nothing at all because you can’t prove it one bit. The world is full of preachers and other wackos saying god / Jesus talks to them in visions. Doesn’t make it true. 

[Notatbm]

23 hours ago, Calm said:

In this I strongly disagree as no one should be required to label oneself as belonging to a faith community when one doesn’t have that faith even if still on the books.  It’s just wrong.  It’s not a genetic or legal status like citizenship, it’s a voluntary association.  If you haven’t resigned because you see that record as meaningless, all the more reason not to use “our”.  If you haven’t resigned because of family blowback, I feel bad for you….sincerely.  Not being able to be who you are because of others’ expectations, not great.  I have had to play that game with my health and stuff at times as I don’t want to be fussed over, given advice that’s irrelevant or worse, or made a project (pretend I am having fun and want to be at a family gathering, for example).  I think it would be much harder with a faith because at least I feel decent much of the time and have some extroverted tendencies, so it’s not a complete mask.

In addition to the wrongness of it, your use of “our own prophets” makes it appear like you are attempting to position yourself as somehow more credible or somehow having a more substantial status as an insider.  I have seen too many people act this way in my life (not just with trying to appear more ‘Mormon’).  It’s disconcerting and makes you look deceptive to me.

There is no requirement on the board that prevents you from calling yourself an exmormon if that is how you see yourself no matter what anyone else thinks.  A name on a paper doesn’t make you LDS in identity.

 Membership numbers need to be tracked somehow.  Decisions need to be made to meet people’s needs, including supporting rectivation efforts, so I don’t see a problem with the Church using those numbers, especially since if someone doesn’t want to be counted, one can contact SL easy enough to get removed, but membership is a different issue than identity.  Making claims with absolute numbers as if all are believers is highly problematic though I don’t think there is inherent issues with looking at trends (speed of numbers going up or down).

I don’t disagree on your opinion re the identity stuff.  Was kinda trolling pyreaux as he was the one who made a big deal out of it and saying the only way I can be an ex Mormon is to actually get exed or resign. Didn’t matter what I thought.