Mind blown, learning of women apostles for the first time.

[CV75]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

Have you read Esther, the Old Testament, or studied those cultures?

No dirt needs to be added to get there.

Yes, but I wouldn't call them dirty-minded. I reserve that for my contemporaries  

[CV75]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Which is how I recognize the writer of Esther did. Game recognizes game.

Please share the good (I mean, the dirty) parts!

[Clear]

Hi Calm - I think there are specific areas of agreement and specific areas of disagreement between us.

 

1)  THE AREA OF AGREEMENT REGARDING THE GREEK WORD “ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΟΣ”

Calm said: “…the term holds the nuance of being sent with delegated authority, the authority being of the sender (AI is so helpful).  “

I AGREE with this.   Whoever (or whatever) is being “sent” has an errand and authority to accomplish that errand. 

If I send my daughter to our mailbox she is an apostle with authority to get the mail.

2 King 1:2 - The evil King Ahaziah sends his apostles with delegated authority to inquire of the false God Baal.

2 Sam 11:6 - Joabs apostle Uriah is sent to David but the text does not describe what authority Uriah has (other than to go see David).

1 Sam 19:14 - Saul sends apostles with delegated authority to David so that Saul is can try to kill David.

Acts 10:8 - The Roman centurian sends his apostles to Joppa with delegated authority to contact the Christian apostle, Peter.

The underlying principle of an apostle of any time, whether a 9 year old female apostle, sent to the mailbox, or an apostle of an evil king sent to inquire of a false God, or a pagan Centurions apostles sent to an apostle of Jesus is that they are all “sent” on an errand (and, they have delegated authority to accomplish the errand).   There are many types of apostles with different errands and different type of authority.

 

2)  THE ASSUMPTIONS REGARDING JUNIA AND WHAT SHE WAS SENT TO DO IS AN AREA OF DISAGREEMENT

The text of Romans 16:7 reads: “Greet Andronicus and Junian, my kinsman and fellow prisoners who are of not among the apostles and who were in Christ before me.”

As with all types of apostles, Junian was “sent” to do “something”.  However, the text does not tell us what she was “sent” to do.

If Junian was sent to help clean and cook, this is different than being ordained to the priesthood. 

If Junian was simply invited to offer her witness of her belief, this is also different and an ordination to the priesthood is unnecessary for this purpose of witnessing.

Where does the text give us the right to claim Junian had the authority of Peter or Paul?

 

 

3)  THE MANY TENUOUS ASSUMPTIONS THAT THE TEXT DOES NOT AUTHORIZE US TO MAKE

We disagree that the text provides evidence supporting your assumption that Junian had apostolic priesthood authority such as Peter, James, John (or Paul) had.

You assumed the source of Junians apostolic or priesthood authority was Christ.  “In the case of Junia as with the other apostles, that would be Christ.”

Where does the text tell us that Christ gave Junia, priesthood authority?

You assume that because “Paul calling her and Andronicus his fellow prisoners” means “they are imprisoned for the same reason Paul is, having been sent by Christ on an apostolic mission”

Where does the text tell us Junian was imprisoned “for the same reason” as Paul?  Where does the text EVEN tell us why Junian was in prison?

Where does the text tell us Junian was sent by Christ on a mission, having the priesthood authority given to the 12 apostles?

You mentioned that “they were in Christ before him”.   There were many Christians before Paul became a Christian.  Why does the fact that Junian believed in Jesus before Paul did, mean she had priesthood authority?  Where in the text does it allow us to make such an assumption?

You mentioned that “Paul also refers to imprisonment in other places as evidence of a credential, authorized ministry.”   There have been a lot of people in prison.  For example, the newly converted Perpetua and her servant Felicity were imprisoned and died for their faith.  Neither claims to be a "credentialed, authorized minister" (though their Bishop who died with them was...)

Why is mere imprisonment itself evidence of a “credential, authorized ministry”.   Where does the text give you evidence that simply being a prisoner means one is part of a “credential, authorized ministry”?

You claimed that his use of “in Christ before me” likely refers to an apostolic commission”. 

Why does the fact that Junian was a Christian before Paul became a Christian mean Junian was given an apostolic commission in the Priesthood?   The fact that my wife was LDS before me does not give her priesthood.

You claimed that the phrase “notable among the apostles” at the same time links their imprisonment to the apostolic commission.”

If Junian was noticed (επισημοι) by other apostles who were "sent out", how does this specific observation mean she has the same “apostolic commission” that Peter, James, and John have? 

Where does the text actually give you the data to make this specific assumption?

You claimed: “As far as “among the apostles”, apparently Paul has the habit of clarifying when he doesn’t mean one of the outstanding apostles and only means ‘well known to the apostles’. “

Επισημοι in this sentence does not necessarily mean “WELL” known, but simply known.   For examples, in Papyri Petr 3, 73:9, επισημοι it refers to the address of a shop that is "known" (number 50), or in BGU VI, 1132:10 it refers to the designation of a district that is known (district number 6), or επισηοι can simply be the acknowledgement that one has received payment (such as in Papyrus Ryl 2, 160,) or it can be a specific request in a will (which other are to note or "notice"), that a thing be done after death such as in Papyrus Ryl 2, 153:5.

Why assume “"men of note” means having a “priesthood commission”?  Where does the actual text give us the right to make this assumption?

 

In summary,  I very much agree with you that an apostle applies to a person (or message such as a letter) that is “sent out” and that the person or letter sent represents the will and authority of the person sending it/them.  

However, this generic greek term applied to anyone sent by anyone else anciently, whether one is an apostle of Christ or an apostle of an King, or an apostle of Satan, or a 6 year old apostle sent out to get the mail.

I disagree that one can automatically assume that Andronicus and Junian were both given the same priesthood authority and commission as Peter, James, John or Paul.  The text simply does not give us the data necessary to make these assumptions.

The assumptions that Andronicus and Junian have the same apostolic powers, priesthood and commission as the 12 apostles, seem (to me) to be driven by ideology, and very tenuous speculations.

Edited December 21, 2025 by Clear

[SeekingUnderstanding]

17 hours ago, Clear said:

6) ASKING SEEKINGUNDERSTANDING FOR CLARIFICATION ON HIS CLAIMS

Seeking understanding said: “I mean Paul called Junia as a prominent  “Apostle” in the same sense that Paul calls himself an “Apostle.”

Clear replied: "You're making three specific claims I've not seen, can you clarify them?

1)  you claim "Paul CALLED Junia".  

Can you clarify what you mean by Paul “called” Junia.  What do you mean by "call".   Simply "asking", a formal calling or ordination or some sort of religious rite of some sort?

It is important that you clarify what you mean by this claim.

 “SeekingUnderstanding replied: Paul referred to Junia and Andronicus as Apostles   (called them apostles) in the same sense of the word as when he called himself an apostle. “

Yes, you said this before.  What, specifically did you MEAN by this claim was the question you were supposed to answer.

I don't mean anything by it. I'm quoting Paul. Look. No one in this thread is unaware of the etymological root of the word apostle. Sent one. Emissary. That is indeed what it means and meant. What you refuse to acknowledge, is that it was coopted by the early church leaders as a title. That is why every single bible translation renders it as such. You know by the people that actually know first century greek and don't have to go ask Chat GPT. 

17 hours ago, Clear said:

 

 

7) ANSWERING A QUESTION IS BETTER THAN DEFLECTION IN EFFICIENT COMMUNICATION

Clear asked Seeking Understanding:  2) You claim she was called "as a PROMINENT "Apostle"'

Can you then clarify what you mean by your additional claim that she was a “prominent apostle”.    What MAKES her a "prominent apostle" in your mind?

Are you saying Paul simply mentioning Junia makes her "prominent" or are you referring to something she did to make her "prominent"?

SeekingUnderstanding replied:” This is the wrong question.

And yet, that is the actual question you were asked.   Are you willing to respond with clarification?

Dude, I'm saying Paul called her prominent. Because he did. He said "Junia is prominent among the apostles".

17 hours ago, Clear said:

 

 

REGARDING SEEKINGUNDERSTANDINGS CLAIM THAT JUNIAN WAS A "PROMINENT" APOSTLE

SeekingUnderstanding said: “Um, I’m saying Paul calling them “of note” or “prominent” makes them prominent.”

OOOookay.  She was mentioned by Paul as being “of note” and thus “received” (επισημοι) by or among those who were “sent out”.   Is there ANYTHING ELSE that makes her “prominent”?

Not that I am aware

17 hours ago, Clear said:

 

9) REGARDING THE CLAIM THAT JUNIAN WAS AN APOSTLE "IN THE SAME SENSE THAT PAUL CALLS HIMSELF AN "APOSTLE"

Clear asked SeekingUnderstanding: "When you say she was an apostle "in the same sense that Paul called himself an "Apostle", what do you mean by this claim?

 Was she simply asked by Paul “to go with them”, or are you saying Junia had a “vision” as Paul did and was “sent” by Jesus in this way, or what do you mean that Paul “called” Junia?

If you mean Paul actually “called” Junia, where does the text give you a description of this?

Can you find a translation of the Bible that distinguishes the kind of apostle Paul was and the kind of Apostle Junia was? 

SeekingUnderstanding replied: Can you find a translation of the Bible that distinguishes the kind of apostle Paul was and the kind of Apostle Junia was? 

No, I cannot think of a single biblical source text that supports your claim.  Not a single one.

My source is every single bible translation. Here is your King James version: "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." So what makes her Apostleship different than Paul for example here in Corinthians: ""And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one untimely born. For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God" Is Paul an Apostle? Yes? Then Junia is as well. 

Your problem is that you assign special meaning to the term Apostle. That it means the same to call Dallin Oaks an apostle as it does when Paul calls himself an apostle. I think such ideas are nonsense. 

 

17 hours ago, Clear said:

 

10) Clear said: “7) THERE IS NO NEED TO BECOME ANGRY OR DEMANDING. WE ARE SIMPLY TALKING ABOUT THE ANCIENT KOINE GREEK USAGE OF A SINGLE WORD

THE LDS PARADIGM AND ANCIENT PARADIGM DOESN'T CHANGE WHETHER THE WORD IS USED ON A FEMALE OR A MAN OR A 9 YEAR OLD "APOSTLE"  IF WE ARE USING ANCIENT KOINE GREEK

Seekingunderstanding said: regarding Greek: “Please educate me! “

Clear responded: Seeking, try to be at peace… World peace does not depend on whether this theory of yours is correct or incorrect. 

We are simply talking about the Usage of a single word, αποστολος and it’s very simple and very basic meaning to the ancient greeks who used the term.”

SeekingUnderstanding replied: “So you have no training in the understanding of 1st century CE Greek. Who could have guessed?”

Ad hominems are not helpful nor are they a replacement for actual, reasoned, data or logic.

It makes no logical sense (to me) for you to keep coming to conclusions without adequate data. 

I don’t understand what motive you have to come to logical conclusions without sufficient data?     

You have no background in Greek or biblical translation. You contradict those that do (such as the translators of the KJV the NIV the NRSV etc). You cite no sources except etymology. Take it up with them

 

17 hours ago, Clear said:

11) THE OBVIOIUS REASON ENGLISH RENDERS GREEK "APOSTLOS" AS "APOSTLE" IN ENGLISH

SeekingUnderstanding said: “Maybe spend sometime pondering why not a single biblical translation renders the term ‘sent’ in this specific verse? 

The English word “apostle” IS the correct word that best correlates with the Greek word “αποστολος”.   

“The one sent” is a description of the meaning of the word apostle just as a dictionary describes the meaning of a base word.  The proper word IS “apostle”.  

IF you do not trust google A.I. as I suggested readers try, perhaps you can find someone you trust who reads Greek to help you with this principle?

You don’t seem this dense or unintelligent SeekingUnderstanding.   Can you describe what your motive is to deny the meaning of this simple Greek word? 

You'll have to point me to where I denied it. I am merely pointing out that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you point to the New Testament to determine that Paul was an Apostle, then you also have to accept the New Testament when it says Junia is an Apostle. Paul says Junia is an Apostle. Paul says Paul was an Apostle. You are the one that wants to assign one meaning in one place and another in the other place. 

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

the people came first.

Not understanding this addition.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God" Is Paul an Apostle? Yes? Then Junia is as well. 

It is interesting that he describes Junia as being in Christ before him while describing himself as the least here, not even deserving to be called an apostle.  It would suggest he sees Junia as a greater apostle than he is, of higher ‘rank’ or prominence.

And given the type of apostle he was…

Edited December 21, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Clear said:

The text simply does not give us the data necessary to make these assumptions.

Sure, when you ignore the patterns of Paul’s comments elsewhere.

[Clear]

1) ASKING SEEKINGUNDERSTANDING FOR CLARIFICATION ON HIS CLAIMS

Seeking understanding said: “I mean Paul called Junia as a prominent  “Apostle” in the same sense that Paul calls himself an “Apostle.”

Clear replied: "You're making three specific claims I've not seen, can you clarify them?

1)  you claim "Paul CALLED Junia".  

2) You claim she was a “PROMINENT Apostle”

3)You claim she was an apostle IN THE SAME SENSE THE PAUL CALLS HIMSELF AN APOSTLE

 

2)  THE BASE MEANING OF THE WORD APOSTLE

Seeking Understanding said: “Look. No one in this thread is unaware of the etymological root of the word apostle. Sent one. Emissary. That is indeed what it means and meant. “

Very good!   We agree that one who is Sent (for any reason), is the base meaning of the Koine Greek word “αποστολος” (apostle).

 

3)  THE RELIGIOUS APPLICATION OF THE WORD APOSTLE ADDS RELIGIOUS CONNOTATIONS

Seeking Understanding said: “What you refuse to acknowledge, is that it was coopted by the early church leaders as a title.”

You are confused and making yet another strange assumption.  Early Christianity DID use the word "αποστολοσ" as a title just as it did επισκοποσ and many other common terms were adopted and made use of by the early Church.

The base word Apostle is anyone who is “sent” for any reason whether in or out of the Church.  

However, One must ADD additional context in order to determine what KIND of "apostle" one is referring to.

When the scriptures say King Ahaziah “sent” apostles to Elijah this is not the same type of apostle as Peter was.

When Cornelius, the Roman centurion Cornelius sent apostles to find Peter, they were not the same type of apostles as Peter (or Paul) was.

If Barnabas sends out a 10 year of apostle for the purpose of buying food, that youth is not the same type of apostle as Peter, or Paul were.

Even in the scriptures, the base noun or verb itself does not tell what type of "apostle" one is unless the context or the text tells us.

Even in modern greek, the base word "αποστολοσ" doesn't specify what SORT of apostle one is.  Thus one can specify that they mean an apostle of religion by using the term ιεραπόστολος  (i.e. "holy" apostle)

 

 

4)  REGARDING THE WORD APOSTLE AS “ONE SENT”

Seeking Understanding said: “That is why every single bible translation renders it as such. “

Clear replied: "Of course.  And they are CORRECT to use this word for anyone who is “sent” for any reason, not simply an ordained man who is sent out by Christ as his witnesses.

 

 

5) THE REASON I REFERRED SEEKING UNDERSTANDING AND OTHER NON-GREEK READERS TO GOOGLE OR GREEK LEXICONS OR GREEK DICTIONARIES

Seeking Understanding: “You know by the people that actually know first century greek and don't have to go ask Chat GPT. “

I agree with this.   I assumed that, since you did not know Greek, you would need a convenient source to look up the meanings of Greek words.  

You do not have to use Chat GPT, but you certainly could use a lexicon.  I just didn’t know if you had access to a Greek lexicon so you could look up the meaning of the Greek word “apostle” and it’s usage since you did not seem to be aware of it when we first started this discussion.

 

 

 6) IF JUNIAN WAS AN APOSTLE, THEN WHAT TYPE OF APOSTLE WAS JUNIAN?  WHAT WERE HER QUALIFICATIONS AND CHARACTERISTICS AND HER PURPOSE

Clear asked Seeking Understanding: "Can you clarify what you mean by Paul “called” Junia.  What do you mean by "call".   Simply "asking", a formal calling or ordination or some sort of religious rite of some sort?

It is important that you clarify what you mean by this claim.

SeekingUnderstanding replied: Paul referred to Junia and Andronicus as Apostles   (called them apostles) in the same sense of the word as when he called himself an apostle. “

Yes, you said this before.  What, specifically did you MEAN by this claim that Junian was an apostle in the same way Paul was an apostle?

THAT was the question you were supposed to answer.

 

 

Clear asked Seeking Understanding:   Can you then clarify what you mean by your additional claim that she was a “prominent apostle”.    What MAKES her a "prominent apostle" in your mind?

Seeking Understanding said: “Dude, I'm saying Paul called her prominent. Because he did. He said "Junia is prominent among the apostles".

You are confused.  I am not doubting Paul called her “prominent”.  I asked specifically what you think MADE her “Prominent”.  Was she Rich?  Famous?  Did she do anything unusual? 

We agree Paul called her prominent.  The question concerned WHAT made her prominent to Paul?

SeekingUnderstanding said: “Um, I’m saying Paul calling them “of note” or “prominent” makes them prominent.”

Clear replied: “OOOookay.  She was mentioned by Paul as being “of note” and thus “received” (επισημοι) by or among those who were “sent out”.   Is there ANYTHING ELSE that makes her “prominent”?

Seeking Understanding replied: “Not that I am aware”

If I understand you correctly, you are saying you not know anything about Junian that made her “prominent” or “recognized” among individuals “sent out” other than Paul mentioned her?  Nothing? 

You don't know if she had priesthood?  You don't know if she was ordained?   You don't know if she was a "special witness"?

You simply know that she was "one sent" (i.e. an apostle)

 

Seeking Understanding said: “So what makes her Apostleship different than Paul for example here in Corinthians: ""And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one untimely born. For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God" Is Paul an Apostle? Yes? Then Junia is as well.”

Yes, we agree that Junian was “sent out”.   Paul was sent out by Jesus himself.

Who does the actual text tell us WHO Junian was “sent out” by?  What she was sent for?  etc.

The difference is NOT that apostles such as Peter, James, John and Paul are “sent” and junian was not “sent”.   The difference lies in their qualifications, ordination, abilities, capabilities, experiences, and WHO specifically and personally “sent” them.  

There is a difference between the apostle Peter and the apostles of the pharisees they sent to Jesus in Matt 22:16 “And they SENT (αποστελλουσιν) to him their disciples…”

 

 

Seeking Understanding said: “You have no background in Greek or biblical translation. You contradict those that do (such as the translators of the KJV the NIV the NRSV etc).

As I’ve mentioned.  Ad hominems are not particularly helpful in efficient discussion.

Still, you could be correct or simply making another assumption without basing it on data.  This is not a good habit to come to conclusions without sufficient data.

Can you give readers a single example of contradictions you claim I have made?  

 

SeekingUnderstanding said: “Maybe spend sometime pondering why not a single biblical translation renders the term ‘sent’ in this specific verse? 

Clear replied: “The English word “apostle” IS the correct word that best correlates with the Greek word “αποστολος”.   “The one sent” is a description of the meaning of the word apostle just as a dictionary describes the meaning of a base word.  The proper word IS “apostle”. 

Seeking Understanding said: “You'll have to point me to where I denied it.”

Again, you are confused.  I do not think you denied it is the proper word at all.

Is there some motive why you want to argue about an agreement? 

I think you and I have already AGREED that apostle IS the correct word for αποστολος for a person who is “sent”.

 

 

Seeking Understanding said: “f you point to the New Testament to determine that Paul was an Apostle, then you also have to accept the New Testament when it says Junia is an Apostle.”

I agree.  If Junian is “one sent” then she certainly IS an apostle as I've always maintained.  Thank you for agreeing this this point.

 

 

Seeking Understanding said: “Paul says Junia is an Apostle. Paul says Paul was an Apostle. You are the one that wants to assign one meaning in one place and another in the other place.”

You are confused.  ANYONE who is “sent” is an apostle, including Junian or including a boy sent to take out the trash IF he is "sent".  That has always been clear. 

What I am asking for is simply your data by which you claim Junian is the same TYPE of apostle, with the same QUALIFICATIONS as Peter, James, John and Paul.   You have spent a LOT of time arguing this point. 

IF you are willing to admit that Junian was NOT of the same type and did not have the same qualifications as Peter, James, John, and Paul, then we can agree. 

If you can show that the actual biblical text allows you to claim Junian WAS ordained and sent out with the same qualifications as Peter, james, John and Paul, then THAT sort of data can help make your theory coherent.

 

Do you actually HAVE any textual data from the bible that tells readers that Junian was the same type of apostle as Peter, James, John, or Paul?

If you do not.  This would be a wonderful time to admit it and to cease trying to find something to argue about.

Edited December 22, 2025 by Clear

[Clear]

REGARDING WHETHER JUNIA WAS OF THE SAME TYPE OF APOSTLE AS THE APOSTLE PETER, JAMES, JOHN AND PAUL.

Clear said: “The text simply does not give us the data necessary to make these assumptions.”

Calm replied: “Sure, when you ignore the patterns of Paul’s comments elsewhere.”

 

Hi Calm,

If you think Andronicus and Junian were of the same type and qualifications as Peter, James, John and Paul, can you clarify the text where Paul indicates the apostle Junia or Andronicus were the same type of apostle as the 12 with the same qualifications, authority, and abilities?

[CV75]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not understanding this addition.

People and their norms came before the scriptures, so their writing about God's involvement in their lives would reflect their times and customs. People then may use these histories and traditions to justify the perpetuation of traditions and customs, for better or worse. I think the light of Christ may inspire some to break away from tradition and custom, but also manage them in a way that moves God's work forward. The same with revelation by those with the keys to receive it, and the same with God's direct intervention when He doesn't find it expedient that they continue.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, CV75 said:

People and their norms came before the scriptures, so their writing about God's involvement in their lives would reflect their times and customs. People then may use these histories and traditions to justify the perpetuation of traditions and customs, for better or worse. I think the light of Christ may inspire some to break away from tradition and custom, but also manage them in a way that moves God's work forward. The same with revelation by those with the keys to receive it, and the same with God's direct intervention when He doesn't find it expedient that they continue.

Very much agree with you.

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Clear said:

REGARDING WHETHER JUNIA WAS OF THE SAME TYPE OF APOSTLE AS THE APOSTLE PETER, JAMES, JOHN AND PAUL.

Clear said: “The text simply does not give us the data necessary to make these assumptions.”

Calm replied: “Sure, when you ignore the patterns of Paul’s comments elsewhere.”

 

Hi Calm,

If you think Andronicus and Junian were of the same type and qualifications as Peter, James, John and Paul, can you clarify the text where Paul indicates the apostle Junia or Andronicus were the same type of apostle as the 12 with the same qualifications, authority, and abilities?

I provided you with a summary of the AI info.  Is that not enough?

[CV75]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

I provided you with a summary of the AI info.  Is that not enough?

Hi Calm, Matthew 18:18 indicates that the Twelve were given the keys, and vacancies in that number/quorum were filled (Acts 1: 22 -26). Paul did not fill any vacancy; he was "appointed and commissioned and sent out" by God directly for a particular mission to the Gentiles, seeming to also bridge their community with the Jewish one, but outside of what the Twelve were doing to run the kingdom. Are you suggesting 1) there might have been others, including Junia who were called directly by God and later (as Paul) had their commission recognized by the governing body of Peter, James, John and the other Twelve; or 2), given Joseph Smith's comments about the Female Relief Society being part of the restoration of the primitive gospel, she was similarly called; or 3), as counselors in modern times are sometimes called into the First Presidency outside of the Quorum of Twelve, women had similar counselor- or advisory-type roles among the councils of the primitive Church as they do today; or 4) something else (and what is the NT basis for this)?

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Are you suggesting 1) there might have been others, including Junia who were called directly by God and later (as Paul) had their commission recognized by the governing body of Peter, James, John and the other Twelve;

Not me, AI

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not me, AI

Can you c/p the source it uses to draw this conclusion?

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Can you c/p the source it uses to draw this conclusion?

Why?  Don’t you trust AI?

[Clear]

Hi @Calm

 

REGARDING WHETHER JUNIA WAS OF THE SAME TYPE OF APOSTLE AS THE APOSTLE PETER, JAMES, JOHN AND PAUL.

Clear said: “The text simply does not give us the data necessary to make these assumptions.”

Calm replied: “Sure, when you ignore the patterns of Paul’s comments elsewhere.”

Clear asked: “if you think Andronicus and Junian were of the same type and qualifications as Peter, James, John and Paul, can you clarify the text where Paul indicates the apostle Junia or Andronicus were the same type of apostle as the 12 with the same qualifications, authority, and abilities?”

Calm replied: “I provided you with a summary of the AI info.  Is that not enough?”

Of course not.   Read what you wrote.  Your responses lacked any textual ,confirming data to support your multiple speculations and they remain personal speculations.  Let  me give you examples:

 

1) DOES THE ACTUAL TEXT TELL US JUNIAN HAD THE SAME PRIESTHOOD AUTHORITY AS PETER, JAMES, JOHN OR PAUL?

Calm said: “Since you told me to appeal to AI, here is what it told me:

Calm claimed: “the term holds the nuance of being sent with delegated authority, the authority being of the sender…In the case of Junia as with the other apostles, that would be Christ.

Where does the biblical text confirm your speculation that the resurrected Christ gave Julia priesthood authority of Peter, James, John or Paul?

 

2) DOES THE ACTUAL TEXT TELL US THEY WERE ALL MADE PRISONERS "FOR THE SAME REASON"

Calm claimed: “And we have the context of Paul calling her and Andronicus his fellow prisoners (or captives together), meaning they are imprisoned for the same reason Paul is.”

Where does the actual text confirm your speculation that Andronicus’ and Junian were imprisoned for the same reason Paul was imprisoned?   

Paul was in the roman prison for being accused of desecration of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, resulting in a riot and, finally, appealing to Caesar.   Where is the text that confirms your speculation that Junian was “imprisoned for the same reason Paul is.”?

 

Calm claimed: “Paul calls Junia his fellow prisoner, indicating they are there in prison for the same reason.”

Simply being in prison at the same time doesn’t mean they are “in prison for the same reason.” Any more than the fact that the baker and wine taster in prison with Joseph were imprisoned for the same reason as Joseph.

Where is the biblical textual support for this unusual, but specific, speculation?

 

3) DOES THE ORDER OF CONVERSION INDICATE APOSTOLIC LEVEL PRIESTHOOD AUTHORITY OR POSITION SUCH AS PETER, JAMES, JOHN OR PAUL POSSESSED?

Calm said: “He even mentions they were in Christ before him, underlining the context and that their position is a religious one.”

Many Christians believed in Christ before Paul did. 

Where is the text that confirms your speculation that this order of conversion meant Junian possessed equal or greater priesthood authority than Peter, James, John, OR Paul?

 

4) DOES THE IMPRISONMENT OF THOUSANDS OF IMPRISONED CHRISTIANS MEAN THEY HAD THE AUTHORITY OF PETER, JAMES, JOHN, OR PAUL?

Calm said: “Paul also refers to imprisonment in other places as evidence of a credential, authorized ministry.”

If this principle is correct, than all imprisonments of all Christians would mean they had a credentialed (whatever that means), authorized ministry.  History doesn’t bear this out at all. 

For example, the diary of the Newly converted Perpetua, did not indicate her Christian groups' imprisonment because of their religion meant they had any priesthood authorized ministry.   

Why speculate this and where is the biblical text that supports this specific speculation you made?

 

So, the answer is NO, your prior, speculations are historically and textually unsupported by the biblical text.

My historical question to you remains unanswered:  “if you think Andronicus and Junian were of the same type and qualifications as Peter, James, John and Paul, can you clarify the text where Paul indicates the apostle Junia or Andronicus were the same type of apostle as the 12 with the same qualifications, authority, and abilities?”

Edited December 22, 2025 by Clear

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 hours ago, Clear said:

When the scriptures say King Ahaziah “sent” apostles to Elijah this is not the same type of apostle as Peter was.

When Cornelius, the Roman centurion Cornelius sent apostles to find Peter, they were not the same type of apostles as Peter (or Paul) was.

If Barnabas sends out a 10 year of apostle for the purpose of buying food, that youth is not the same type of apostle as Peter, or Paul were.

Huh. I wasn’t aware that any biblical translations used the word “apostle” in any of these verses. It’s been a while since I’ve conversed with someone so over confident in their own abilities. The idea that a dictionary, google, and chat gpt gives puts one’s knowledge above people that have dedicated their lives to a subject field is beyond me. Good luck with that and good night!

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

Please share the good (I mean, the dirty) parts!

I think such a post would violate board rules.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Why?  Don’t you trust AI?

 ha ha I have an open mind about it, and while I do not actively use it (I look at it when a Google Search brings it up), I would expect it to have a link to its source, just like the Google AI does in its search reply. If there isn't one, I will seek one out for myself.

[CV75]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think such a post would violate board rules.

No, go ahead, do it  !!!

 OR 

 

[InCognitus]

I really wish I had more time to read this thread (I don't!), so forgive me if I post something that someone has already said, but there are at least three distinct words in Greek that people sometimes mix together.   I explained it in better detail in a thread on the meaning of false apostles, in a post on 07/04/2023, where this group was claiming that "apostles" are common in Christianity today and fulfills the idea spelled out in Ephesians 4:11-14 that apostles and prophets (etc.) will continue until all are in the unity of the faith.

The first two Greek words (shown below) are the words used for the official title of a commissioner of Christ, while the last word is the common meaning of "set apart" or "sent out".   I color coded the words in my other post and included the Strongs numbers for better clarity because the Greek words look similar.  I'm just cutting and pasting parts of my other post here.

These are the three main words:

ἀπόστολος, apóstolos ; g652
 From    ἀποστέλλω {g649}
 Mean    a delegate specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ [“apostle”] (with miraculous powers)
 KJV    apostle, messenger, he that is sent
 TGL (PDF)    68
 TGL (IMG)    68
(Α ἀπόστολος–ἀπόστολος TGL (IMG))

ἀποστολή, apostolḗ ; g651
 From    ἀποστέλλω {g649}
 Mean    commission, i.e., (specifically) apostolate
 KJV    apostleship
 TGL (PDF)    68
 TGL (IMG)    68
(Α ἀποστολή–ἀποστολή TGL (IMG))

ἀποστέλλω, apostéllō ; g649
 From    ἀπό {g575} and στέλλω {g4724}
 Mean    set apart, i.e., (by implication) to send out (properly on a mission) literally or figuratively
 KJV    put in, send (away, forth, out), set [at liberty]
 TGL (PDF)    67
 TGL (IMG)    67
(Α ἀποστέλλω–ἀποστέλλω TGL (IMG))

Only the first two words listed above, apostolos, (g652) and apostole, (g651) are used in application to the apostles of Jesus Christ that were appointed offices in his church.  And even though both words are derived from the third word, apostello (g649), the latter word doesn't convey the same meaning as the appointed church office.  The latter word apostello (g649) merely means to set apart and send out, and it isn't special in the sense of having divine appointment, because it is used in verses like:

Matthew 2:16  "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth [apostello (g649)], and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem".

Matthew 14:35  "And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out [apostello (g649)] into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased".

But the same word is also used by Jesus and religious leaders, like when it says he shall send forth [apostello (g649)] his angels (Matthew 13:41).  

So the latter word may or may not have any religious application.  

The bottom line is that the common word for "sent" (apostello - g649) doesn't work as a replacement for the appointed apostles of Jesus Christ (apostolos - g652), and it is the latter word that is used in Ephesians 4:11-14. 

And, Paul says not all in the church are apostles (apostolos g652 - 1 Corinthians 12:29).  Many others may be "sent" (apostello - g649 - including the people Herod sent out to kill the babies), but that's not the same thing as having the apostolic office.  

I wish I had more time to give my opinion on the Junia controversy.  (The phrase "who are of note among the apostles" just seems rather ambiguous to me).  The but I may change my opinion if I can get my hands on the two references mentioned at the end of Dan McClellan's video posted earlier in the thread (I watched that video while I was sitting with my dad in the hospital yesterday, while he was asleep).  It's an interesting topic.

[Clear]

Hi @SeekingUnderstanding

 

1) UNAWARENESS OF GREEK RESULTS IN GREATER INACCURACY WHEN SPECULATING REGARDING GREEK

SeekingUnderstanding said: I wasn’t aware that any biblical translations used the word “apostle” in any of these verses.

I agree, you do not seem to be aware of minimal Greek nor it's usage in any of these verses.  I DO think it is helpful to learn at least a minimal amount of Greek before arguing about Greek.

 

2) PERSONAL JIBES AND ATTACKS (I.E. AD HOMINEMS) ARE COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE TO EFFICIENT EDUCATION AND DISCUSSIONS

Seeking Understanding : It’s been a while since I’ve conversed with someone so over confident in their own abilities.

You tend to respond with jibes and personal attacks (“ad hominems”) rather than offering evidential data.  I do not think this is an efficient way to support your theories.  I will explain.

When a personal speculation that one is unable to support is challenged, a reflexive response is, often, frustration and anger which is manifested by personal jibes and attacks.  This tendency to anger is one of the faults Christians were admonished to overcome.

For example, Hermas taught the ancient Christians “…if you are patient, the Holy Spirit who lives in you will be pure, uncontaminated by some other evil spirit, …for it is at peace with itself.  But if an angry temper approaches, immediately the Holy spirit, which is very sensitive, is distressed because it does not have a clean place, and it seeks to leave the place…because it is polluted by the Angry Temper.  For the Lord lives in patience, but the devil lives in an angry temper.”    Hermas 33:2-3

Another problem with ad hominems is that emotional responses are, typically, devoid of evidential value and thus, rarely educate anyone and they often serve to justify rejection of new data that challenges ones worldviews.

Another problem with ad hominems the that lashing out encourages discussants to view each other as enemies, rather than collaborators in our religious and moral education.

Another problem with ad hominems is that they often serve to deflect a discussion from a evidence based discussion to an emotional argument.   This is not beneficial for either for discussants nor for those reading an argument hoping to find evidence and data.

For example, your last post doesn’t even provide evidence to support your speculations, nor does it educate anyone in either a moral or religious principle.  

Ad Hominems are simply a very inefficient way to communicate and support a religious theory.

For example: Did ANY reader find ANY evidence supporting the speculation that Junian was an apostle with the same powers and authority as Peter, James, John, or Paul in Seeking Understandings' last post?   Anyone?

Seeking Understanding,  IF you do not have any actual evidence to support your speculations, NOW would be a good time to admit this and simply alter your current speculation.  Otherwise, consider offering readers actual evidence to evaluate and discuss.

 

Seeking Understanding said: “The idea that a dictionary, google, and chat gpt gives puts one’s knowledge above people that have dedicated their lives to a subject field is beyond me. “

I very much agree with this point.  Thus, I do NOT recommend you assume that a dictionary, google, and chat gpt regarding Greek gives you, as a non-greek reader, knowledge superior to people who read Koine Greek.  

However, readers who DO use tools available to them have an advantage over individuals who will not simply take the time to even look up definitions and usage of Greek words they speculate on.

 

Seeking Understanding said: Good luck with that and good night!

Thank you Seeking Understanding.   I understand discomfort that occurs when two competing claims collide.  I do NOT mean to embarrass you nor do I desire to damage any credibility you may have, NOR do I desire to discourage individuals from speculations or from creating religious models regarding religious history.   I apologize if this seems to be personal for you (or anyone else).  However, IF you are going to speculate and announce a historical theory, you must understand that your theories ought to have some sort of underlying evidence for individuals to examine for themselves and that your claims may be scrutinized.

IN any case, I honestly hope your own spiritual journey becomes insightful, and wonderful, and full of knowledge and spiritual growth.

Edited December 22, 2025 by Clear

[Clear]

Hi @InCognitus

InCognitus said: “Only the first two words listed above, apostolos, (g652) and apostole, (g651) are used in application to the apostles of Jesus Christ that were appointed offices in his church.  And even though both words are derived from the third word, apostello (g649), the latter word doesn't convey the same meaning as the appointed church office.  The latter word apostello (g649) merely means to set apart and send out, and it isn't special in the sense of having divine appointment, because it is used in verses like:

Matthew 2:16  "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth [apostello (g649)], and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem".

Matthew 14:35  "And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out [apostello (g649)] into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased".

But the same word is also used by Jesus and religious leaders, like when it says he shall send forth [apostello (g649)] his angels (Matthew 13:41).  “

 

I LIKE this contribution though it seems to come from a religious concordance, rather than a Greek lexicon and thus does not tell us what a word actually means, but instead tells us how a word was translated and used in the biblical text.

 

1) "APOSTLE" IS A GENERIC GREEK TERM REFERRING TO ANYONE (OR THING) THAT IS "SENT OUT"

You contribution helps distinguish the versions and usage of forms of Greek αποστολος.

For example, Herods apostles “slew all the children”, the “men of that place” sent out apostles “who were diseased”, and the apostolic messengers (angels) are sent forth. 

These examples refer to different types of apostles (Herods apostles, the diseased "sent" to Jesus, and Jesus' angels "sent" forth)

 

Other examples from the ancient Koine literature BEFORE CHRISTIAN ADOPTION, display this same pattern that an apostle in normal context is simply anyone (or thing) that is “sent out”.  For examples,

In Papyrus Tebtunis (I 112:8 of 112 b.c.) a person is “sent” on a mission to Musaio (οφου εισ αποστολην Μουσαιωι).  However, it need not be a person, but can be a letter or a thing “sent”.

In The Oxyrynchus Papyri (IV 736:12 of I a.d.) Myrrh is “sent” to the burial of the daughter of Phnas. (Μυρου εισ αποστολην ταφησ Θυγατροσ Φνας)

In the Sylloge Greek inscriptions (924:29 of iii b.c.) it speaks of the generic use of the term speaking of “the apostles of man” (ται αποστολαι του ανδρος)  in parallel meaning to your example of Herods apostles sent to kill infants

And, in the Sylloge Greek inscriptions (929:99 of 130 b.c.) it describes the gathering of dead bodies and “sending” them off (presumably to be buried) by saying : “Gather and send the dead.”  (…συναγωγησ τε και αποστολης)

There are multiple examples in ancient Koine Greek literature of how this word is used in everyday secular Greek long before the Christians used the term and thus, it did not originate in Christian religious use, but was borrowed from normal, everyday Greek.   Once the Christians started using the term for a specific office (e.g. the “apostle” Peter), it did not suddenly become a “Christian religious term” to the non-christians, but it remained used in everyday Greek (just as it is used nowadays in Greek). 

So, the term is a generic term used for anyone or anything that is “sent”.  IF one wants to use an unambiguous term in modern Greek for an apostle in a religious context, one can add a prefix ιερ (holy) to αποστολος resulting in (ιερ-αποστολος) which indicates the term is specifically meant for a religious apostle to remove confusion as to what sort of apostle is being referred to.

 

Thank you InCognitus

Edited December 22, 2025 by Clear

[InCognitus]

5 minutes ago, Clear said:

I LIKE this contribution though it seems to come from a religious concordance, rather than a Greek lexicon and thus does not tell us what a word actually means, but instead tells us how a word was translated and used in the biblical text.

I used Strong's concordance to aid in differentiating the words for the post (the Strong's numbers are really handy for doing that), but I used Walter Bauer's: A Greek Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature for looking up the word meanings.

I'm in Arizona, and my Lexicons are in Utah, so I don't have that available at the moment unfortunately, so I just copied what I had written in my prior post.

The advantage of Walter Bauer's lexicon is for providing a lot of other usages of the word outside of the New Testament, including the Septuagint and early Christian literature.