Sticks of Judah and Joseph/Ephraim

[Calm]

In the past when this symbol was taught, it was conveyed to me it was for certain the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Quote

15 ¶ The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and writeupon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

18 ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 ¶ And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

Next year’s Come Follow Me seems more flexible.

Quote

You could ask yourself these same questions as you read about the second symbol, in verses 15–28. This symbol involves two sticks, which many scholars interpret as wooden writing boards joined by a hinge. The stick of Judah can represent the Bible (since much of the Bible was written by Judah’s descendants), and the stick of Joseph can represent the Book of Mormon (since Lehi’s family were descendants of Joseph of Egypt). 

My bolding.

I haven’t been paying close enough attention to notice when the greater flexibility showed up, maybe will go check back a few manuals if they are still available or conference talks if they are mentioned.  Am wondering how this section has been talked about in your experiences, especially more recent.  Have you seen a change over the years?

Added:  2022 is written the same way

Edited November 22, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

Seminary manual allows for two interpretations, but feels pretty rigid about the interpretation, so I am thinking the “can” above refers to it being one of two existing interpretations rather than being open to the possibility the Bible and Book of Mormon option was not originally meant and instead is an adaptation of modern revelation.

Quote

The Lord also directed Ezekiel to join two sticks together to represent the union of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the unification of the tribes of Ephraim and Judah.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students-2015/introduction-to-ezekiel/unit-29-day-2-ezekiel-37?lang=eng

Same here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-seminary-teacher-material-2018/leviticus/lesson-61?lang=eng

Quote

 

Invite students to turn to Ezekiel 37:15–17, and ask a student to read the passage aloud. Invite another student to write the associated key statement of doctrine on the board (located in paragraph 4.3 of the Doctrinal Mastery Core Document😞 With the Bible, the Book of Mormon testifies of Jesus Christ and contains the fulness of the gospel. As a class, repeat the scripture reference and the key statement of doctrine multiple times.

It looks like the tribes interpretation was focused on more as a primary interpretation in the 2018 version (I may be overthinking how this wrote this though, that having the tribes interpretation first in the second paragraph was just less awkward writing and not intended to suggest anything), but just as one of two meanings in 2014.  Repeating it does seem to indicate they want students to be sure and be aware of both interpretations…which is important imo for missionary work and interfaith discussion since nonLDS won’t be reading the BoM into the symbolism and are more likely to be dismissive imo if members reject the scholarly/traditional interpretation.

2018

Quote

 

The Lord also directed Ezekiel to join two sticks together to represent the union of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the unification of the tribes of Ephraim and Judah.…

Explain that in addition to representing the tribes of Judah and Joseph, the “sticks” mentioned in Ezekiel 37:15–17 also represent written records. The word sticks in this context refers to “wooden writing tablets [or scrolls that] were in common use in Babylon in Ezekiel’s day” (verse 16, footnote a; see also Boyd K. Packer, “Scriptures,” Ensign, Nov. 1982, 51).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-seminary-teacher-material-2018/ezekiel/lesson-144?lang=eng

2014:

Quote

The Lord also directed Ezekiel to join two sticks together to represent the union of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and the unification of the tribes of Ephraim and Judah. Through Ezekiel, the Lord spoke of the covenant He would establish with gathered Israel.…

You may want to suggest that students mark verse 16, footnote a, to help them understand that these sticks can refer either to wooden tablets or to scrolls, which anciently were rolled around sticks (see Boyd K. Packer, “Scriptures,”Ensign, Nov. 1982, 51).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-seminary-teacher-manual/introduction-to-the-book-of-ezekiel/lesson-142-ezekiel-37?lang=eng

[Calm]

From what I understand we are in the minority to even consider the sticks meant to be hinged tablets or scrolls.  Anyone seen contrary evidence?  NonLDS treating the sticks as likely meant to imply writing more that a few symbols for the names?

Edited November 23, 2025 by Calm

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

In the past when this symbol was taught, it was conveyed to me it was for certain the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Next year’s Come Follow Me seems more flexible.

My bolding.

I haven’t been paying close enough attention to notice when the greater flexibility showed up, maybe will go check back a few manuals if they are still available or conference talks if they are mentioned.  Am wondering how this section has been talked about in your experiences, especially more recent.  Have you seen a change over the years?

Added:  2022 is written the same way

It’s a near certainty that the following words of the Lord given to Joseph son of Jacob, as quoted by the Prophet Lehi in 2 Nephi 3:12, were taken from the Brass Plates of Laban. In my opinion, I believe it’s also quite likely that the Prophet Ezekiel was familiar with the prophecies of the Prophet Joseph, and that it was the following prophecy of Joseph focusing on the coming forth of the Bible and the Book of Mormon as companion books of scripture in the last days that inspired Ezekiel to reiterate the same prophetic theme that’s found in Ezekiel 37.

12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord. (2 Nephi 3:12)

Edited November 23, 2025 by teddyaware

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

In the past when this symbol was taught, it was conveyed to me it was for certain the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Next year’s Come Follow Me seems more flexible.

My bolding.

I haven’t been paying close enough attention to notice when the greater flexibility showed up, maybe will go check back a few manuals if they are still available or conference talks if they are mentioned.  Am wondering how this section has been talked about in your experiences, especially more recent.  Have you seen a change over the years?

Added:  2022 is written the same way

A stick can be read to mean a scroll, a tablet, or a rod of any material with a symbol etched on it. In any case, from Ezekiel we get the reunification of the kingdoms. The Book of Mormon says that the Bible (which came by way of the Jews) and the Book of Mormon (which came by way of the remnant of Joseph), together, are crucial in gathering Israel. I think over the decades the Church has moved away from the shortcut interpretation that the sticks refer directly to these two books to a more stepwise interpretation that balances the knowledge the Book of Mormon and Bible scholarship provide. The use of "can" seems to serve as an acknowledgment of this balance, and if anyone disagrees with any particular interpretation, the basic doctrine from these sources is that the Bible and Book of Mormon provide mutually supportive testimony of the gathering of Israel under Christ and His kingdom.

The Bible and the Book of Mormon testify of and support the gathering of Israel and Ezekiel's teaching of the reunification of the kingdoms, whatever Ezekiel meant by "stick(s)", how he thought his parable or prophecy should be interpreted and fulfilled, or what prophets have said and how correlated material taught these concepts over the years.

[Calm]

Assuming I didn’t miss a reference (I searched on “sticks”) it appears these verses were last referred to in 1982 by Boyd K Packer.  Could have sworn it was more popular than that.  

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1982/10/scriptures?lang=eng

[Calm]

Oops…should have done “stick”.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2007/10/scriptural-witnesses?lang=eng

Quote

But Isaiah was not the only Old Testament prophet who foretold the Book of Mormon. Ezekiel wrote:

“Take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel … : then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel … :

“And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.”

Today, Saints living in many nations of the earth gratefully hold the Bible (the stick of Judah) and the Book of Mormon (the stick of Ephraim) bound as one in their hands.

I knew I had heard it more recently than my son’s first year….

Edited November 23, 2025 by Calm

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

In the past when this symbol was taught, it was conveyed to me it was for certain the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

I don't recall ever seeing anything that says that Ezekiel 37:15-17 should only be interpreted in one single way as the two sticks representing only the Bible and Book of Mormon.  And, when the seminary manual says that the sticks "can" be interpreted to mean the Bible and Book of Mormon, I think they are just acknowledging that the sticks also represent the two nations or the two tribes (of Judah and Ephraim), because they do represent those as well.

This is what the Old Testament Institute manual says about this topic:

Quote

(27-21) Ezekiel 37:15–20. What Is the Symbolism of the Two Sticks Being Joined Together?

This passage is another example of the dual nature of prophecy. Sperry explained: “What is the meaning of these ‘sticks’ and what is their significance? Most commentators simply believe that each piece of wood represents one of the two kingdoms, either Judah or Israel (Ephraim), which are to be bound together or united under the Lord’s direction. This act symbolizes the reunion of Ephraim and Judah into one kingdom. … However, the Latter-day Saints insist that such an interpretation is by no means complete. … What they do believe is that each of the sticks represents a scripture, a significant piece of writing. The Bible represents the scripture of Judah. To an average person not of our faith this conclusion may seem reasonable, but he will ask immediately what scripture represents the stick of Ephraim. To which we reply, the Book of Mormon. The Nephite scripture is the record of the descendants upon this continent of Joseph who was sold into Egypt.” (Voice of Israel’s Prophets, pp. 226–27.)

In other words, the manual acknowledges that the interpretation that these two sticks represent the two kingdoms is accurate, but it is not really the "complete" picture because they also represent the two records of those two tribes.

And, the Old Testament Seminary manual says something similar:

“When the twelve tribes of Israel were divided into two kingdoms, the Northern Kingdom was ruled by the tribe of Ephraim and the Southern Kingdom was ruled by the tribe of Judah. When all of the Lord’s people receive the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, the twelve tribes will be reunited.”  (Old Testament Seminary Student Material, p. 731)

It goes on to say something similar to what you quoted from the teacher's manual:

Quote

In addition to representing the tribes of Judah and Joseph, the “sticks” mentioned in Ezekiel 37:15–17 also represent written records. The word sticks in this context refers to “wooden writing tablets [or scrolls that] were in common use in Babylon in Ezekiel’s day” (verse 16, footnote a; see also Boyd K. Packer, “Scriptures,” Ensign, Nov. 1982, 51).

The stick of Judah, or the Bible, is the record that was preserved primarily through the Jews, many of whom were of the tribe of Judah. The stick of Joseph, or the Book of Mormon, is the record that Lehi and his descendants kept. Many of those who kept the records now contained in the Book of Mormon were descendants of Joseph, who was Judah’s brother. Both Judah and Joseph were sons of Jacob.

So I think the manuals are just trying to provide the complete picture of what Ezekiel is talking about in those verses.

5 hours ago, Calm said:

From what I understand we are in the minority to even consider the sticks meant to be hinged tablets or scrolls.  Anyone seen contrary evidence?  NonLDS treating the sticks as likely meant to imply writing more that a few symbols for the names?

This idea didn't originate with Latter-day Saints.

The New English Bible (which was jointly published by the University Presses of Cambridge and Oxford) translates Ezekiel 37:15-22 this way:

15 These were the words of the LORD to me:  
16 Man, take one leaf of a wooden tablet and write on it, 'Judah and his associates of Israel.'  Then take another leaf and write on it,  'Joseph, the leaf of Ephraim and all his associates of Israel.'  
17 Now bring the two together to form one tablet; then they will be a folding tablet in your hand.  
18  When your fellow-country-men ask you to tell them what you mean by this, 
19 say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD:  I am taking the leaf of Joseph, which belongs to Ephraim and his associate tribes of Israel, and joining to it the leaf of Judah.  Thus I shall make them one tablet, and they shall be one in my hand.  
20 The leaves on which you write shall be visible in your hand for all to see.
21  Then say to them, These are the words of the Lord GOD:  I am gathering up the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations; I will assemble them from every quarter and restore them to their own soil.  
22 I will make them one single nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and they shall have one king; they shall no longer be two nations or divided into two kingdoms...."

This clearly conveys the idea that these were tablets of some kind used for writing, and the joining of the two tablets plays a significant part in Israel being gathered again.

This Scripture Central article also dives deep into that question:  Ezekiel’s Sticks and the Gathering of Israel

Edited November 23, 2025 by InCognitus

[The Nehor]

I think the main reason is that the interpretation of it being scrolls is becoming less tenable.

The stick is an object lesson. The two sticks are joined together and they represent the reunification of the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel. This is consistent with the other physical demonstrations in the Book of Ezekiel where the prophet physically does something and then explains its meaning.

He does the demonstration and then declares what the symbolism means. It means that God will reunite them into one nation.

No mention of records or that the sticks/tablets represent larger volumes whose combination will lead to the reunification of Judah and Israel. That is the clear and plain meaning.

It is one of those cases where this would have to be something coded into the text that the contemporary audience wouldn’t see this but long afterwards it will be seen as fulfillment of prophecy that no one realized was part of the prophecy. If descendants of ours 500 years from now were to relentlessly go over General Conference addresses looking for little bits and pieces that seem to match events of the last five centuries and declare them to be prophecy would they be justified in saying that this shows that this was prophecy? Even if no one at the time thought it was prophecy or had anything to do with prophecy?

[Benjamin McGuire]

There are a couple of things to consider. The reference to Ezekiel in D&C 27 is fascinating because it is one of the clearest instances of later editorial insertions into a revelation. The original revelation simply didn't have the reference. The connection between Ezekiel's prophecy and the Book of Mormon was first suggested by William Phelps in January of 1833 (the revelation was first given in 1830). Phelps was, at the time, reading through Jahn's Biblical Archaeology - he had just acquired a copy of the edition published in 1832. Phelps wrote this:

Quote

Ezek. also says: Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, for Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, for Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel his companions: and join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thy hand. The bible for the stick of Judah, and the book of Mormon for the stick of Joseph, in the hand of Ephraim, is all that need be said, upon these words, for no man ever pretended to know, (till the book of Mormon came,) any thing about the tribe of Joseph, or his history, notwithstanding God had declared by the mouth of Hosea, That he had written the great things of his law to Ephraim; and they are counted a strange thing. The ancient and modern practice of reading sticks, wants but little elucidation. The common school-boy ought to know, that anciently, they wrote on parchment for common use, and rolled it round a stick; and, latterly, newspapers are put into a stick for public utility.

And what stands out to us almost immediately is that in this interpretation, Phelps isn't talking about writing ON the sticks, but about writing on parchment and wrapping it around the sticks - and similarly, the practice of hanging newspapers on sticks to keep them neat between readers in more recent times. This isn't as common today as it has been in the past (because newspapers themselves are not as ubiquitous) - but if you want to see what Phelps is talking about, you can look here.

This is really quite removed from the idea that the author in Ezekiel intended. But for Phelps, it was another way to connect the restoration to the Old Testament and to find prophecies about the Book of Mormon in the Old Testament. And his idea caught on like wildfire in the imagination of the members of the early LDS movement. It was such a popular idea that it was incorporated (as an interpretation) into one of the revelations given to the Church. The original version of the revelation was published in the Book of Commandments in 1833. But by 1835 the text had been expanded, and so Joseph modified the ending of this revelation to read (in part):

Quote

"Behold this is wisdom in me: wherefore marvel not for the  hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to  reveal the book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my ever lasting gospel; to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim; and also with Elias, to whom I  have committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration  of all things, or the restorer of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, concerning the last days:..."

And this becomes Section 27 of the D&C in 1835. It was it's inclusion in Section 27 of the D&C that has kept this interpretation with the Latter-day Saints since those early years. But this interpretation isn't consistent with the Hebrew text of the Old Testament. And before we give Phelps too much grief over this, this is what he was working from in his book Jahn's Biblical Archaeology:

Quote

Books being written upon very flexible materials, were rolled round a stick ; and, if they were very long, round two, from the two extremities. The reader unrolled the book to the place which he wanted, [greek text omitted] and rolled it up again when he had read it, [greek text], Luke 4: 17—20; whence the name [hebrew text] a volume, or thing rolled up, Ps. 40:7. Is. 34:4. Ezek. 2:9. 2 K. 19:14. Ezra 6:2. The leaves thus rolled round the stick, which has been mentioned, and bound with a string, could be easily sealed, Is. 29: 11. Dan. 12:4. Rev. 5:1. 6:7. Those books, which were inscribed on tablets of wood, lead, brass, or ivory, were connected together by rings at the back, through which a rod was passed to carry them by.

It was the last part of this that had really caught his attention (and why he focused on this part of his book) because he saw in here a reference to a "sealed book" and books inscribed on metal plates. In the same article he then gives what appears to be one of the earliest descriptions of the gold plates (as he understood them).

The reason why the Church has been stepping back from this interpretation is because of the history that I have outlined here - coming out of the work on the Joseph Smith papers that really cemented the idea that this part of Section 27 was an expansion on the original revelation.

[telnetd]

15 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It’s a near certainty that the following words of the Lord given to Joseph son of Jacob, as quoted by the Prophet Lehi in 2 Nephi 3:12, were taken from the Brass Plates of Laban. In my opinion, I believe it’s also quite likely that the Prophet Ezekiel was familiar with the prophecies of the Prophet Joseph, and that it was the following prophecy of Joseph focusing on the coming forth of the Bible and the Book of Mormon as companion books of scripture in the last days that inspired Ezekiel to reiterate the same prophetic theme that’s found in Ezekiel 37.

12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, ... (2 Nephi 3:12)

@Calm

The loins of Lehi would be of Manasseh.  What Book of Mormon books were written by an
Ephraimite?

Edited November 23, 2025 by telnetd

[webbles]

13 minutes ago, telnetd said:

@Calm

The loins of Lehi would be of Manasseh.  What Book of Mormon books were written by an
Ephraimite?

Apparently the lost 116 pages indicated that Ishmael was of Ephraim.  And so all the wives of the sons of Lehi would be from Ephraim and so all their descendants would be from both Ephraim and Manasseh.  https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Source:Book_of_Mormon_as_Stick_of_Ephraim:Joseph_Fielding_Smith_statement

[InCognitus]

49 minutes ago, webbles said:

Apparently the lost 116 pages indicated that Ishmael was of Ephraim.  And so all the wives of the sons of Lehi would be from Ephraim and so all their descendants would be from both Ephraim and Manasseh.  https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Source:Book_of_Mormon_as_Stick_of_Ephraim:Joseph_Fielding_Smith_statement

Don Bradley's book, The Lost 116 Pages – Reconstructing the Book of Mormon’s Missing Stories (Greg Kofford Books, 2019), in the chapter titled "The Lineages of Laban, Ishmael, and Zoram" on pages 157-160 of the book, quotes from witnesses who were informed about the lineage of Ephraim and Zoram by Joseph Smith.  The sources are from Franklin D. Richards, Orson Pratt, Erastus Snow, and Charles B. Thompson. 

Below is an 1896 account from Elder Franklin D. Richards, who recalled hearing Joseph Smith explain how the Book of Mormon could fulfill Ezekiel's prophecy of "the stick of Ephraim" or "stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim" (Ezek. 37:16, 19):

Quote

Away back in 1843 . . . [at Joseph Smith's Mansion House] I ventured to walk in, and scarcely had more than time to exchange usual civilities, when this brother said: "Brother Joseph, how is it that we call the Book of Mormon the Stick of Joseph in the hands of Ephraim, when the book itself tells us [in Alma 10:3] that Lehi was of the lineage of Manasseh? I cannot find in it about the seed of Ephraim dwelling on this land at all." Joseph replied: 

"You will recollect that when Lehi and his family had gone from Jerusalem out into the wilderness, he sent his son Nephi back to the city to get the plates which contained the law of Moses and many prophecies of the prophets, and that he also brought out Ishmael and his family, which were mostly daughters. This Ishmael and his family were of the lineage of Ephraim, and Lehi's sons took Ishmael's daughters for wives, and this is how they have grown together, 'a multitude of nations in the midst of the earth' [Gen. 48:16, 19 about Ephraim].  If we had those one hundred and sixteen pages of prophecy Martin Harris got away with, you would know all about it, for is made very plain therein. The Lord told me not to translate it over to take from Nephi' s other plates until 1 came to the period Of time other translation was broken off, and then go on with Mormon's abridgment again. That is how it came about that Ishmael's lineage was not given in the of Mormon, as well as Lehi's." 

He also quotes Erastus Snow as also hearing Joseph Smith talk about Lehi and his family, and Nephi marrying Ishmael's daughters, and their linage being that of Ephraim.  

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Don Bradley's book, The Lost 116 Pages – Reconstructing the Book of Mormon’s Missing Stories (Greg Kofford Books, 2019), in the chapter titled "The Lineages of Laban, Ishmael, and Zoram" on pages 157-160 of the book, quotes from witnesses who were informed about the lineage of Ephraim and Zoram by Joseph Smith.  The sources are from Franklin D. Richards, Orson Pratt, Erastus Snow, and Charles B. Thompson. 

Below is an 1896 account from Elder Franklin D. Richards, who recalled hearing Joseph Smith explain how the Book of Mormon could fulfill Ezekiel's prophecy of "the stick of Ephraim" or "stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim" (Ezek. 37:16, 19):

He also quotes Erastus Snow as also hearing Joseph Smith talk about Lehi and his family, and Nephi marrying Ishmael's daughters, and their linage being that of Ephraim.  

I would be curious to know if these assertions existed prior to it being seen as a problem.

Also it wouldn’t even be needed. The way the tribes of Israel are interrelated he could just as easily have said Sariah was of Ephraim. Or Lehi’s mother. Or anyone in their ancestry.

[InCognitus]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I would be curious to know if these assertions existed prior to it being seen as a problem.

Also it wouldn’t even be needed. The way the tribes of Israel are interrelated he could just as easily have said Sariah was of Ephraim. Or Lehi’s mother. Or anyone in their ancestry.

I agree (that it doesn't matter).  

[telnetd]

On 11/23/2025 at 1:31 PM, InCognitus said:

Below is an 1896 account from Elder Franklin D. Richards, who recalled hearing Joseph Smith explain how the Book of Mormon could fulfill Ezekiel's prophecy of "the stick of Ephraim" or "stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim" (Ezek. 37:16, 19):

Is there a corresponding account how the Bible would fulfill the "stick of Judah"?

[teddyaware]

16 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Is there a corresponding account how the Bible would fulfill the "stick of Judah"?

11 But a seer will I (the Lord) raise up out of the fruit of thy (Joseph’s) loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word (the Book of Mormon) unto the seed of thy loins (the descendants of Joseph)—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them (the Bible).

12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy (Joseph’s) loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord. (2 Nephi 3)

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Is there a corresponding account how the Bible would fulfill the "stick of Judah"?

Franklin D. Richards also affirmed that the "stick of Judah" is the Bible in the same account.

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, teddyaware said:

 

11 But a seer will I (the Lord) raise up out of the fruit of thy (Joseph’s) loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word (the Book of Mormon) unto the seed of thy loins (the descendants of Joseph)—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them (the Bible).

12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy (Joseph’s) loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord. (2 Nephi 3)

I am going to withhold judgement on that one until the events prophesied actually happen.

[teddyaware]

On 11/26/2025 at 2:44 AM, The Nehor said:

I am going to withhold judgement on that one until the events prophesied actually happen.

I believe most of the unbelievers who waste away a major portion of their lives endlessly bloviating and nitpicking on this board is due to the fact that even though their carnal minds are convinced that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints isn’t true, their suppressed inner spiritual voices constantly whisper to them that the restored church actually is true. Hence the bizarre psychopathological obsession with having to combat those incessant nagging fears by expending a significant amount of time and effort in recurring attempts to reconvince their carnal minds that the church isn’t true because their pesky spirits just won’t shut up!

But in the end it will all work out for the best for most because when the defenders of the unbelieving carnal mind are eventually reconverted, just like Alma and the sons of Mosiah they’ll eventually be numbered among  the most thoroughly convinced, eloquent and indefatigable defenders of eternal truth. When that blessed day arrives, they’ll look back on that period of unbelief as a phase in which a wise and loving God graciously allowed them to embrace the bitter that they might finally learn how to gratefully prize the good. So keep it up because I’m supremely confident that after your inevitable reconversion we’ll meet have a good laugh!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Edited November 27, 2025 by teddyaware

[telnetd]

On 11/25/2025 at 1:34 PM, teddyaware said:

 

11 But a seer will I (the Lord) raise up out of the fruit of thy (Joseph’s) loins; and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word (the Book of Mormon) unto the seed of thy loins (the descendants of Joseph)—and not to the bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them (the Bible).

12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy (Joseph’s) loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord. (2 Nephi 3)

Do the loins of Judah comprise all the biblical writers or most of them?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

away a major portion of their lives endlessly bloviating and nitpicking on this board is due to the fact

Do you see yourself as spending a major portion of your life on this board?

[The Nehor]

18 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I believe most of the unbelievers who waste away a major portion of their lives endlessly bloviating and nitpicking on this board is due to the fact that even though their carnal minds are convinced that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints isn’t true, their suppressed inner spiritual voices constantly whisper to them that the restored church actually is true. Hence the bizarre psychopathological obsession with having to combat those incessant nagging fears by expending a significant amount of time and effort in recurring attempts to reconvince their carnal minds that the church isn’t true because their pesky spirits just won’t shut up!

So….if declaring your convictions or beliefs is a bizarre psychopathological obsession to combat incessant nagging fears I have bad news about Fast & Testimony meetings. Seriously, we religious people spend far more time endlessly declaring things as a show of piety and conviction than atheists and agnostics do. I think you’re projecting again.

18 hours ago, teddyaware said:

But in the end it will all work out for the best for most because when the defenders of the unbelieving carnal mind are eventually reconverted, just like Alma and the sons of Mosiah they’ll eventually be numbered among  the most thoroughly convinced, eloquent and indefatigable defenders of eternal truth. When that blessed day arrives, they’ll look back on that period of unbelief as a phase in which a wise and loving God graciously allowed them to embrace the bitter that they might finally learn how to gratefully prize the good. So keep it up because I’m supremely confident that after your inevitable reconversion we’ll meet have a good laugh!

Well, after the thousand years of burning in hell I’ll probably be even more insane than I am now so the laughter might be a more deranged thing.

18 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Happy Thanksgiving!

Thanks, did that this afternoon. Then did a Friendsgiving this evening with sinners and infidels.

Edited November 28, 2025 by The Nehor

[Steve J]

On 11/23/2025 at 7:24 AM, Benjamin McGuire said:

There are a couple of things to consider. The reference to Ezekiel in D&C 27 is fascinating because it is one of the clearest instances of later editorial insertions into a revelation. The original revelation simply didn't have the reference. The connection between Ezekiel's prophecy and the Book of Mormon was first suggested by William Phelps in January of 1833 (the revelation was first given in 1830). Phelps was, at the time, reading through Jahn's Biblical Archaeology - he had just acquired a copy of the edition published in 1832. Phelps wrote this:

And what stands out to us almost immediately is that in this interpretation, Phelps isn't talking about writing ON the sticks, but about writing on parchment and wrapping it around the sticks - and similarly, the practice of hanging newspapers on sticks to keep them neat between readers in more recent times. This isn't as common today as it has been in the past (because newspapers themselves are not as ubiquitous) - but if you want to see what Phelps is talking about, you can look here.

This is really quite removed from the idea that the author in Ezekiel intended. But for Phelps, it was another way to connect the restoration to the Old Testament and to find prophecies about the Book of Mormon in the Old Testament. And his idea caught on like wildfire in the imagination of the members of the early LDS movement. It was such a popular idea that it was incorporated (as an interpretation) into one of the revelations given to the Church. The original version of the revelation was published in the Book of Commandments in 1833. But by 1835 the text had been expanded, and so Joseph modified the ending of this revelation to read (in part):

And this becomes Section 27 of the D&C in 1835. It was it's inclusion in Section 27 of the D&C that has kept this interpretation with the Latter-day Saints since those early years. But this interpretation isn't consistent with the Hebrew text of the Old Testament. And before we give Phelps too much grief over this, this is what he was working from in his book Jahn's Biblical Archaeology:

It was the last part of this that had really caught his attention (and why he focused on this part of his book) because he saw in here a reference to a "sealed book" and books inscribed on metal plates. In the same article he then gives what appears to be one of the earliest descriptions of the gold plates (as he understood them).

The reason why the Church has been stepping back from this interpretation is because of the history that I have outlined here - coming out of the work on the Joseph Smith papers that really cemented the idea that this part of Section 27 was an expansion on the original revelation.

It’s interesting to me that they are stepping back… because isn’t expanding the Bible, the BOM on prior scripture, and here in D&C … normal for LDS and all scripture? You see the same thing being said by biblical scholars about New Testament authors using the Old Testament? 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Steve J said:

It’s interesting to me that they are stepping back… because isn’t expanding the Bible, the BOM on prior scripture, and here in D&C … normal for LDS and all scripture? You see the same thing being said by biblical scholars about New Testament authors using the Old Testament? 

It is not the best method of scriptural exegesis. A lot of it assumes that prophets of the past were secretly sneaking in coded phrases and the like that their contemporaries would understand one way but people in the future, often millenia in the future, are meant to understand them differently. The writer of Matthew inserting prophecies (most of which are not prophecies) fulfilled by Jesus all over the place is one particularly egregious example. American End-Times Evangelicals thinking the Book of Revelation and snippets all over the Old Testament are all about THEM is perhaps even more egregious. LDS are not immune to this.

I do wonder if the church survives for 1000 years and there is no messianic return what strange meanings and interpretations will be pulled from the Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Mormon and thought to be direct instructions to the people of that time specifically or will be seen as a “dualistic” writing with coded prophecy for their day.