Moses 7:32 - knowledge in their day of creation

[mbh26]

On 10/19/2025 at 7:01 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

I believe you are missing the point of my question to our Protestant friend.

Also, we (Latter-day Saints) don't believe God created Lucifer.

Yeah, I'm sorry I butted in.  I didn't get what point you were making to our protestant friend,

All intelligences are eternal.  It remains unclear to me what intelligences without spiritual bodies are capable of.  I guess it depends on what you mean by create.  We believe that God created our spiritual bodies correct?  

[marineland]

On 10/20/2025 at 4:17 PM, Calm said:

Did this ability have any determined structure at its beginning to it or was it random?  

Choice has a structure of obey or disobey.

On 10/20/2025 at 4:17 PM, Calm said:

Iow, did God know before he gave them their ability to think and choose how this ability would work and therefore what choices they would make or did he somehow hide the result from himself so he had no control over what those abilities would be in detail at least?

He knew.  For the same reason, he knows we break some of the Ten Commandments
yet he still gives us rules and consequences.

On 10/20/2025 at 4:17 PM, Calm said:

Iow, what led Satan to choose pride while some other being choose humility?

He wanted to be like God.

 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, marineland said:

He wanted to be like God.

But what made him want that.  First cause type of motivation.

If you don’t understand what I mean…

I want food.  Why?  I am hungry.  Why?  My stomach is empty and my body is signaling me I need to eat.  Why?  Because someone or something made my biology in such a way I need fuel, which triggers hunger so I get it.

What made Satan so that he wanted to be like God?

Edited October 24, 2025 by Calm

[manol]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

But what made him want that.  First cause type of motivation.

If you don’t understand what I mean…

I want food.  Why?  I am hungry.  Why?  My stomach is empty and my body is signaling me I need to eat.  Why?  Because someone or something made my biology in such a way I need fuel, which triggers hunger so I get it.

What made Satan so that he wanted to be like God?

Isn't the Covenant Path for those who "want to be like God"?  My point being, in and of itself, "wanting to be like God" may not necessarily be wrong. 

Perhaps "wanting to be like God" at the expense of other beings is a part of what was wrong. 

Edited October 24, 2025 by manol

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, manol said:

Isn't the Covenant Path for those who "want to be like God"?  My point being, in and of itself, "wanting to be like God" may not necessarily be wrong. 

Perhaps "wanting to be like God" at the expense of other beings is a part of what was wrong. 

I agree.

I am curious though what marineland sees as the source of these desires.  What first caused Satan to desire to be like God and in a way he didn’t consider God’s Will., but his own.

[marineland]

On 10/23/2025 at 10:48 PM, Calm said:

What made Satan so that he wanted to be like God?

Lust.

[teddyaware]

7 minutes ago, marineland said:

Lust.

What is it that causes some men and women to aspire to become godly partakers of the divine nature? Perhaps you will find some clues below?

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1)

[Calm]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Lust.

And what made Satan lustful?

[marineland]

On 10/26/2025 at 3:02 PM, Calm said:

And what made Satan lustful?

He wanted to become like God.

[marineland]

On 10/26/2025 at 2:23 PM, teddyaware said:

What is it that causes some men and women to aspire to become godly partakers of the divine nature? Perhaps you will find some clues below?

 

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1)

I see your points but do spirits have a divine nature before getting mortal bodies?

Edited October 29, 2025 by marineland

[InCognitus]

45 minutes ago, marineland said:

He wanted to become like God.

Is there something wrong with wanting to become like God?  

For example, what is lustful about wanting something like this?:  "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."  (1 John 3:2).  

[Calm]

On 10/29/2025 at 12:33 PM, marineland said:

He wanted to become like God.

That is circular…he wanted to be like God because he was lustful, which was because he wanted to become like God.  Not informative.  Circular arguments are not answers, imo, since you just end up where you started. Too bad.   

Is there a chance you can step out of the circle or is it pretty much a “we don’t know why it happened”?

I respect answers of “we don’t know” or “it’s a mystery”.  That is an actual answer as it provides new information even if that information is “there is no additional information available on this topic”.

I believe eventually if we get far enough back or forward or small enough, all answers amount to “we don’t know”.

Edited November 2, 2025 by Calm

[teddyaware]

23 hours ago, marineland said:

I see your points but do spirits have a divine nature before getting mortal bodies?

The answer is yes. One of the fundamental doctrines of the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is that all men and women are coeternal with God and that at the very core of the being of each individual is a portion of God’s own divine nature. Then as we progressed on the road of eternal progression our native, uncreated intelligence was clothed upon with an organized spirit body by which means our uncreated divine nature was further enhanced and amplified when our spirit bodies were created in the image of God, inheriting from our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother a portion of their divine nature in what could be called inherited spiritual DNA. The reason why spiritually minded men and women hunger to become holy like God is because the human family has a divine spiritual lineage and heritage. After all, I presume that even you believe we were created in the image of God, so why wouldn’t we want to become what we were created to be?

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Edited October 30, 2025 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Mistaken duplicate

 

Edited October 29, 2025 by teddyaware

[marineland]

On 10/29/2025 at 3:23 PM, InCognitus said:

Is there something wrong with wanting to become like God?  

For example, what is lustful about wanting something like this?:  "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."  (1 John 3:2).  

I am like God in some ways now.  For Satan, I believe he had worship in mind.  

[marineland]

On 10/29/2025 at 4:04 PM, teddyaware said:

The answer is yes. One of the fundamental doctrines of the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is that all men and women are coeternal with God and that at the very core of the being of each individual is a portion of God’s own divine nature. Then as we progressed on the road of eternal progression our native, uncreated intelligence was clothed upon with an organized spirit body by which means our uncreated divine nature was further enhanced and amplified when our spirit bodies were created in the image of God, inheriting from our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother a portion of their divine nature in what could be called inherited spiritual DNA. The reason why spiritually minded men and women hunger to become holy like God is because the human family has a divine spiritual lineage and heritage. After all, I presume that even you believe we were created in the image of God, so why wouldn’t we want to become what we were created to be?

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

Like when Heavenly Father and Mother travelled on their road of eternal progression?

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Like when Heavenly Father and Mother travelled on their road of eternal progression?

Again, you are assuming one position as settled doctrine, when it has been pointed out several times that there are different schools of thought.

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, marineland said:

I am like God in some ways now. 

In some ways, yes.  We are all the same kind of being as God (as the Bible teaches), but we all have a long way to go to progress to be like God in other ways.

2 hours ago, marineland said:

For Satan, I believe he had worship in mind.  

So really then, Satan lusted after power (to exalt his throne above the stars of God), and it wasn't his desire to be like God that was wrong.  Do you agree?

Also, Satan wanted to do it his own way rather than following God's way.  God's way required that each person humbly accept Jesus as their Savior and be perfected in him, but there was nothing humble about Satan's approach.  "For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." (Luke 14:11)

So there is really nothing lustful or wrong about wanting to become like God, and Jesus really wants all of us to become like him and be one with him and his Father.  The problems arise with our motives and with who and what we love the most.  That's what makes the difference.

[marineland]

On 11/2/2025 at 3:02 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Again, you are assuming one position as settled doctrine, when it has been pointed out several times that there are different schools of thought.

How did Heavenly Mother become a God?

[marineland]

On 11/2/2025 at 3:46 PM, InCognitus said:

So really then, Satan lusted after power (to exalt his throne above the stars of God), and it wasn't his desire to be like God that was wrong.  Do you agree?

I equate Satan's desire to become powerful like God meant his desire for Godhood.

From this LDS manual, "Satan because he sought to exalt himself above God and 
rule over Heavenly Father’s other children (see Isaiah 14:12–20; see also 
D&C 29:36; 76:25–28; Moses 4:1–4)".

This rule would include worship, some examples being Jesus and Moses (Matthew 4:9, 
Moses 1:12).

Moses 4:1 indicates Satan wanted the honor belonging to Heavenly Father whereas
verse 3 depicts Heavenly Father viewing this as Satan wanting to be given His power.  

Satan could not be more powerful than God; could not receive more power that God
already had.

But it's not clear why Heavenly Father would need to cast Satan down by the power
of Jesus, who may not have even been a God at this point in time, instead of by 
His own power.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

How did Heavenly Mother become a God?

First, we need to establish with you the Latter-day Saint idea that they/we have always been gods- we are just here to determine if we will qualify for exaltation and further progress within that native godhood.

If it is the Ostler line of thinking, it's probably along the lines that She/They, like Father God was/were so far advanced that She/They just was/were at the stage where, alongside Her/Their Husband, they had the knowledge and power to establish a plan whereby the other less advanced intelligences/spirits could begin advancing towards everything they have.

If traditional thinking, She/They lived on an earth, married He who became our Father, kept Her/Their Covenants, and entered into exaltation.

Neither scenario is established doctrine, so I would humbly request that you don't falsely represent either as Latter-day Saint theology.

[marineland]

On 11/7/2025 at 12:20 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

First, we need to establish with you the Latter-day Saint idea that they/we have always been gods-

Even when you existed as an eternal, uncreated intelligence?

[InCognitus]

On 11/7/2025 at 9:42 AM, marineland said:

I equate Satan's desire to become powerful like God meant his desire for Godhood.

From this LDS manual, "Satan because he sought to exalt himself above God and 
rule over Heavenly Father’s other children (see Isaiah 14:12–20; see also 
D&C 29:36; 76:25–28; Moses 4:1–4)".

It's obviously more than a desire for Godhood, because Satan wanted to exalt his throne above the stars of God, meaning he wanted to be above everyone else including God.

The desire to become like God, on the other hand, is fundamental to everything Jesus has taught us to do, through accepting him as our Savior and be cleansed through his atoning sacrifice, and by following him.  That path requires humility and submission to the Savior and his God and Father, our God and Father.  Satan had no humility.  He rejected the entire plan and wanted all the glory.  That was where he failed.

[teddyaware]

42 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

It's obviously more than a desire for Godhood, because Satan wanted to exalt his throne above the stars of God, meaning he wanted to be above everyone else including God.

The desire to become like God, on the other hand, is fundamental to everything Jesus has taught us to do, through accepting him as our Savior and be cleansed through his atoning sacrifice, and by following him.  That path requires humility and submission to the Savior and his God and Father, our God and Father.  Satan had no humility.  He rejected the entire plan and wanted all the glory.  That was where he failed.

In 2 Nephi 2 the Prophet Lehi testifies that if Lucifer and his followers had succeeded in dethroning God the only thing their rebellion would’ve accomplished would have been the annihilation of existence. Lucifer’s supposed “plan of salvation” was nothing less than a cosmic suicide pact!

13 And if ye shall say there is no lwa,ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. (2 Nephi 2)

Edited November 16, 2025 by teddyaware

[Nofear]

On 10/21/2025 at 12:19 PM, mbh26 said:

All intelligences are eternal.  It remains unclear to me what intelligences without spiritual bodies are capable of.  I guess it depends on what you mean by create.  We believe that God created our spiritual bodies correct?  

Nobody responded to you. The last question is, of course, yes, God created our spirit bodies. It is in that sense They are our literal Heavenly Parents.

To the first question, what can intelligences do without a body, my position is not much. Since intelligences are uncreate and self-existent the only philosophically coherent position to me is that they are are simple (i.e. without constituent parts). Being simple the intelligences would lack the ability to perceive or remember information. Consequently, anything action taken by an intelligence would be indistinguishable from random. Our intelligences only truly show our capability when embodied --- linked with a machine (body) that provides us perception and memory. While the core of our identity is self-existent, in some sense we didn't "begin to be" in any non-trivial sense until our Heavenly Parents gifted us with bodies.

Edited November 19, 2025 by Nofear