Seek and Ye Shall Find....

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 9/2/2025 at 9:31 AM, bluebell said:

It's a good question.  Can we just seek for truth without any bias for or against the information or sources we have to sift through to get there?  
 

Everyone has bias. The question is what is our goal? Is the goal to maintain our current beliefs? Or to find deeper truths? If we view doubt as a fault and belief as a virtue, then change is impossible. If we view doubt as an indication that something in our current network of beliefs is inconsistent and wrong, AND we view changes in belief towards greater truth a virtue, then we can move closer to truth.

On 9/2/2025 at 9:31 AM, bluebell said:

 

I don't know how to seek for truth without faith or doubt playing a part in the process.  As an example of what I mean, I have a degree in history.  But in order to get it, I had to trust that the college I attended could actually impart the knowledge that I needed.  I had to trust that my professors knew what they were talking about.   I couldn't verify either of those things independently, it was all trust (or faith) in the system that put those people or institutions in a position of authority. 
 

I guess I would view or phrase this differently. Let’s say I was raised an evangelical biblical literalist and young earth creationist. I want to understand what the academic understanding of ancient near eastern history is. I don’t have to have trust that the university professors will teach me what I need to know to get a degree. That’s true by definition. I don’t have to accept what they teach is actually true either (as compared to the history I’ve accepted from my theoretical upbringing). I can learn their viewpoint and get a degree all while thinking their view of history is false. 
 

What I do have is an opportunity to choose which set of beliefs best matches with reality. I will be presented with archeological artifacts and data that challenge my world view. 

On 9/2/2025 at 9:31 AM, bluebell said:

 

Faith and doubt seem to be irrevocably connected to discovering truth, from my perspective.  So I don't think I can answer your question because I have no personal experience with it.

Speaking from your perspective, how has seeking truth (with no bias for or against the outcome) lead you to truth?  What has that process looked like in your life?  It's a sincere question, not a gotcha.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

I don’t seek truth without bias because no one can. The best we can do is to be aware as we can of our bias and lean away from them. The more we want something to be true the more skeptical we should be. How do I determine truth? The question is impossible, but here are some random thoughts this morning. Maintain the idea that I am certainly wrong about many things I currently believe. Embrace doubt as an opportunity to expand knowledge and to change and grow. It’s ok to approach new information skeptically, to poke prod and question. And it’s ok to reexamine long held cherished beliefs, to poke prod question. It’s ok not to know.

 

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Everyone has bias. The question is what is our goal? Is the goal to maintain our current beliefs? Or to find deeper truths? If we view doubt as a fault and belief as a virtue, then change is impossible. If we view doubt as an indication that something in our current network of beliefs is inconsistent and wrong, AND we view changes in belief towards greater truth a virtue, then we can move closer to truth.

 

I think my goal is to be predisposed to belief and not be skeptical.  That goal isn't to maintain my current beliefs, and it is to find deeper truths. 

I think I view leading with doubt as a fault because it seems to predispose me to skepticism, and being difficult to convince is, from my perspective, what makes change impossible. 

If doubt actually was an indication that something is inconsistent or wrong, I would probably agree with your take on it.  But that's giving a lot of power to doubt that I don't think it's earned.  If we are going to assume that doubt always means that something is inconsistent or wrong, then doubt becomes nothing but bias.  Relying on bias isn't a great way to move closer to truth.

Quote

 

I guess I would view or phrase this differently. Let’s say I was raised an evangelical biblical literalist and young earth creationist. I want to understand what the academic understanding of ancient near eastern history is. I don’t have to have trust that the university professors will teach me what I need to know to get a degree. That’s true by definition. I don’t have to accept what they teach is actually true either (as compared to the history I’ve accepted from my theoretical upbringing). I can learn their viewpoint and get a degree all while thinking their view of history is false. 
 

What I do have is an opportunity to choose which set of beliefs best matches with reality. I will be presented with archeological artifacts and data that challenge my world view. 

 

But if you think those artifacts and data are manipulated and untrustworthy, they won't challenge your worldview at all.  They could actually cement your worldview in even deeper if you go to a source for information that you don't believe is trustworthy or can provide it.  

I saw in some of my philosophy classes that dealt with religion.  I went to school in an area with a strong Evangelical presence and the classmates that went in skeptical of the teacher, never lasted.  They challenged everything the teacher said and then eventually just dropped out.  The ones that seemed to trust the teacher, were better able to deal with the information (it seems anyway, on the outside looking in). 

Without some faith in the source, everything that comes from the source that challenges a bias will be easy to dismiss.

[Calm]

13 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If we view doubt as an indication that something in our current network of beliefs is inconsistent and wrong, AND we view changes in belief towards greater truth a virtue, then we can move closer to truth.

I would agree to the above if phrased as “indication that something in our current network is possibly inconsistent and wrong”.  We may be erring in doubting something, after all.

Edited September 6, 2025 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I would agree to the above if phrased as “indication that something in our current network is possibly inconsistent and wrong.  We may be erring in doubting something, after all.

Put scientifically, data that doesn’t align with the current best theory / model might be user error vs a need to throw out the entire model! And everyone should be biased to be skeptical of new data (or doubt) that upsets a longstanding model or theory that has a long history of working well. 

Edited September 5, 2025 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think my goal is to be predisposed to belief and not be skeptical.  That goal isn't to maintain my current beliefs, and it is to find deeper truths. 

I think I view leading with doubt as a fault because it seems to predispose me to skepticism, and being difficult to convince is, from my perspective, what makes change impossible. 

If doubt actually was an indication that something is inconsistent or wrong, I would probably agree with your take on it.  But that's giving a lot of power to doubt that I don't think it's earned.  If we are going to assume that doubt always means that something is inconsistent or wrong, then doubt becomes nothing but bias.  Relying on bias isn't a great way to move closer to truth.

I don’t mean to doubt (haha) what you are saying, but how does this work in reality? The world is filled to the brim with competing and mutually exclusive ideas and truth claims. It may be true, but I have a hard time understanding how you don’t treat Islam’s truth claims with skepticism. Or a naturalistic world view. Or one that embraces Ancient Greek gods. That’s not bad or wrong. 
 

And for me all I’m saying is that doubting your doubts is not a virtue. Belief in a particular world view is not a virtue. Doubts are opportunities to grow, self examine, and perhaps change should change be warranted. 

[sunstoned]

I believe that bias is an inherent aspect of human cognition and that it is deeply embedded in our DNA.  I also feel that we should consciously acknowledge our biases when engaging in the evaluation of research and the exploration of novel ideas. Such awareness can foster greater objectivity and critical reflection, which hopefully will enhance the integrity of our inquiries.  

Biases are a well-known and accepted condition that must be accounted for in honest research.  I learned about this during my doctoral studies.  In my dissertation, I was required to have a section where I listed my background and biases to assist readers in evaluating my research and conclusions.  

Edited September 6, 2025 by sunstoned

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I don’t mean to doubt (haha) what you are saying, but how does this work in reality? The world is filled to the brim with competing and mutually exclusive ideas and truth claims. It may be true, but I have a hard time understanding how you don’t treat Islam’s truth claims with skepticism. Or a naturalistic world view. Or one that embraces Ancient Greek gods. That’s not bad or wrong. 
 

 

Maybe the confusion is the idea that by not being skeptical, you have to treat all other claims as equal forever?  I don't embrace the ancient greek gods because of my experiences with God and lack of experiences with Zeus.  I don't embrace Islam because of my belief in Jesus Christ being the Son of God, and that belief comes from my experiences with Him and with the Spirit.  I don't need to be skeptical and doubting to find truth about those religions.  As I faithfully seek truth, what's not truth is weeded out automatically.

Quote

And for me all I’m saying is that doubting your doubts is not a virtue. Belief in a particular world view is not a virtue. Doubts are opportunities to grow, self examine, and perhaps change should change be warranted. 

I see seeking with faith ("seek and ye shall find") as the beginning of the process, that it is similar to Alma's teaching about planting the seed and then taking care of what grows, before you really know. 

Such actions shows faith on your part, because you are believing that the seed and the fruit will have worth before you actually know that they will.  There's still room in the process for the fruit to be bad though.  Having faith in the process doesn't impact the fruit or require the fruit to be good.  It just makes getting to know the fruit possible. 

Being skeptical is to me, doubting the seed is any good before you've planted it, and so not planting it at all.  Or planting it and then not taking care of it so that it dies before it grows.  For me, doubt hinders my ability to find truth, and faith increases it.   

[Navidad]

On 9/4/2025 at 9:10 AM, bluebell said:

I was thinking of a practical application of the question.  Like, at what point can a husband's or wife's faith that their spouse loves them, become certain.  Is that possible in your eyes?  Where is certainty possible, and where is it not, in your opinion?  Is certainty always a sin, or just in spiritual things?

I agree that faith ceases to be faith when it goes from believing to knowing, but from my perspective, that's the whole point.  To move from faith in Christ, for example, to knowing Christ.  Because of our experiences with Him.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. We have had terrible floods here and I have been a bit preoccupied. I don't think I would go so far as to say, "Certainty is always a sin." In that sense, certainty is like pride, or perhaps even like anger. I do believe however, that certainty often leads to a fall, just like pride goes before a fall. Using your illustration, I think that a person might be able to say they are certain their spouse loves them, but I am not sure if they can take that to the next step and say they are certain their spouse will always be faithful to them. I don't believe that it is a given that spouses who stray don't love their husband or wife. That is a bit too reductionistic for this former director of counseling. I don't know if that answers your question or not. Best wishes. 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. We have had terrible floods here and I have been a bit preoccupied. I don't think I would go so far as to say, "Certainty is always a sin." In that sense, certainty is like pride, or perhaps even like anger. I do believe however, that certainty often leads to a fall, just like pride goes before a fall. Using your illustration, I think that a person might be able to say they are certain their spouse loves them, but I am not sure if they can take that to the next step and say they are certain their spouse will always be faithful to them. I don't believe that it is a given that spouses who stray don't love their husband or wife. That is a bit too reductionistic for this former director of counseling. I don't know if that answers your question or not. Best wishes. 

Be safe!

[bluebell]

I thought of another way to look at seeking and finding.  I thought of those iSpy books, or Where's Waldo, or the pages in magazines at doctors' offices, that contain pictures that are kind of hidden.  Pictures that you can't see unless you look for them.  The pictures are there, whether you see them or not.  Waldo's always there.  The toothpick hidden in the haunted house is always there.  Seeking doesn't create the picture, it's just the mechanism needed to reveal it.  

Could this be another way to look at Christ's teaching that if we seek we will find?  

[Tony uk]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I thought of another way to look at seeking and finding.  I thought of those iSpy books, or Where's Waldo, or the pages in magazines at doctors' offices, that contain pictures that are kind of hidden.  Pictures that you can't see unless you look for them.  The pictures are there, whether you see them or not.  Waldo's always there.  The toothpick hidden in the haunted house is always there.  Seeking doesn't create the picture, it's just the mechanism needed to reveal it.  

Could this be another way to look at Christ's teaching that if we seek we will find?  

Thought this was a very good way of putting it. 

The saying that goes 'Look at the Big Picture'. We may need to look in the picture, to find a small piece of what we are looking for. It is down to the specific person to search for what they are seeking. It is down to the willingness of the person to look, and with persistence, at times. 

[Gillebre]

I haven't read all the other posts in this thread yet so I'm unsure if anyone said something similar, but the way I like to think of it is framed just so: whatever we're focusing on is, I feel, the foundation of what we are seeking and eventually finding.

Especially the unintentional or undirected focus, something very subtle in our first person perspective, can shift our course's direction by a matter of degrees one way or another relative to what is best for us. 

My wind-down consideration for tonight: I feel like this is one of the primary purposes of social media: the ability to claim and make use of agency's focus through subtle means. Thoughts?

First time posting in some years, be gentle with me please, hah.